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The Bible Way To Heaven

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by blinkin1604, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    What is your point about the definition of "believe?"
     
  2. tabletalk

    tabletalk Active Member

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    You said: "You also say you believe only in grace and not in works."
    I don't think I said that, do you have a quote from me?
    I really do not understand the remainder of your post.
     
  3. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry.

    DO you believe in works then?
     
  4. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    It's important.
    I sometimes ask for a verse saying that all we need to do is believe and DO NOTHING.

    We do have some Christians nowadays who believe they are to do nothing because Jesus already did it all and God might be offended if we try to help Jesus.

    They come back with John 6:29
    Which is OK. But then they have to explain what BELIEVE means.
    It is imperative that this word be understood.
     
  5. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the meaning.
     
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  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Scott...I missed this.

    Believe is a very important word in the N.T.
    It does not mean what Webster's dictionary says.
    It means much more.

    The bible was written in Greek, so we need to understand what it means in Greek, which is how the believers and readers understood it back at Jesus' time and after...

    In every N.T. verse, where Jesus is teaching, He always tells us that we are to behave a certain way or to do some deed (or work).

    The only exception is in John 6:29 when Jesus says that the work of God is to believe in Him whom God has sent. (Jesus of course).

    So, this is the reason why it's important to understand what Believe means, because Jesus said it and to Him it meant the above.

    It DID NOT mean to ONLY believe, as we understand it today, and that is ALL we have to do.
     
  7. twinc

    twinc Active Member

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    so how should we interpret Jn 20:31 viz that everything that is written is written so that we simply simply believe - which of course is not simple at all, especially to adults as Jesus told us - btw who finally decides whose interpretation is correct - twinc
     
  8. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but I just searched for Jesus using the word "believe", and I did not come up with any good examples of what you are saying. Could you give me an example verse?
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Right.
    Because He came to preach the Kingdom.
    Not to tell us to just believe in Him.
    He didn't want us to just believe.
    He wants us to act on that belief.

    Believe and obey must be terms that are !earned from the study of God.
    Maybe you could do a study online or from a teacher.??
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any question about the kingdom or God, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to validate your point with scripture.
     
  11. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    I totally disagree with number 4. OSAS. Not an advocate of that theology.
     
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  12. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    My point is validated from scripture and from theology.
    Believe in the N.T. and Obey are from the same root words.
    Believe signifies to obey.
    If we obey, we believe.
    It IS interesting to do a study on this.
    Not everything can be learned from reading the N.T.
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...

    Now I have a choice of letting it go, or being honest with you (which I prefer):

    When I asked for an example, I was asking for a validation by the seal of scripture. But you have not done it, all you have done is continued in your own words - which if I am correct is because you do not have a bible to refer to while you are online...in which case, I wish you did, because your comments go unvalidated. If you could, I suspect you would quote James saying, "O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

    But this is where we started, and it does not offer a profit to simply go in circles back to the beginning.

    I will then, by offering some quotes, attempt to pull it all together in profitable conclusion:

    If you were to have said, "A tree is known by its fruit" therefore James is correct, "faith without works is dead." Then we could continue to agree that each of those statements is true, and yet is limited to those who live on unto good works after attaining the faith. But if one comes to faith and quickly dies...is he then saved, or not, because he died before being obedient to his faith?

    Yes, of course, he is saved. So, then, those who live should continue in the faith that has been given them to go and do good works. For, "to live is Christ"...and Christ would certainly do good works. Therefore, if Christ is in you, you will be found doing good works, or found a liar - which, I believe is what you have been saying. And I agree.
     
  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This is what I've been saying but this is not what we were discussing.

    We were discussing the word BELIEVE.
    Let me see if I could find something online...

    *************************************************

    Introduction

    When the English translations of the Greek New Tes- tament were made in the 1526-1611 period, the “difficult Greek in which the New Testament is written…still held mys- teries for” English scholars. (Nicolson: 224.) One of those mysteries was the Greek word pisteuo in John 3:16. In over 200 instances of pisteuo in the New Testament, not once did the King James Bible render it as obey. (See Strong’s Concor- dance.) However, scholars now realize obey was a common meaning of pisteuo in ancient Greek. Obey certainly was the meaning of pisteuo in John 3:36 (see page 448). Yet, this obe- dience salvation formula is identically repeated in John 3:16.

    Besides John 3:36 helping, one can more easily accept pisteou means obeys in John 3:16 when one looks at Apostle John’s many quotes of Jesus about obedience. Jesus in John 8:51 says “whoever keeps on obeying (tereo) My Teaching

    should never ever die.”1 In John 15:1-10, Jesus says a “branch in me” that does not “bear fruit” is “taken away,”

    “cut off from the vine,” thrown “outside and burned.” 2 John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:

    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV).

    *******************************************************

    This article speaks of Believe, Faith and Obey:

    Believe and Obey


    ****************************************************

    PART 1
     
  15. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    PART II

    To believe in Jesus implies to obey Jesus:


    Strong's Concordance
    hupakoé: obedience
    Original Word: ὑπακοή, ῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: hupakoé
    Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-o-ay')
    Short Definition: obedience
    Definition: obedience, submissiveness, compliance.
    HELPS Word-studies
    5218 hypakoḗ (from /akoúō, "to hear" and /hypó, "beneath") – i.e. obedience – literally, "submission to what is heard" (WS, 695), i.e. obedience as the response to someone speaking. This refers both to an earthly voice and the Lord's voice (see 2 Cor 10:5; 1 Pet 1:2).

    I had a problem posting all of the above.
    It can be found in Strong's Greek Lexicon or Concordance.
    Sorry.

    P.S.
    I wanted to add that studying this about two years ago helped me a lot to understand the N.T.
     
  16. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Okay...now I am tracking with you.

    However, this simply points to the reason for the discrepancy in the first place. The reason for the language and meaning difference is no coincidence or lack of understanding, but rather the marvel of God to adjust for the times. Allow me to explain:

    During the times in which the text was penned in the Greek, "obey" was appropriate, for it was written to both "the dead" and "the living" "in Christ." Meaning, that to "the dead" who would die in their sins but be raised with Christ in the resurrection, they would need to "walk out their faith" and "endure until the end"...just as you say: "obey." But to "the living" to whom Christ comes before physical death...they have "died to the flesh", and "it is no longer they who live but Christ who lives in them", whom not only obeys already, but has obeyed and has also "overcome all things" - "It is finished."

    These things I quote that you may know that they are true and verifiable.

    So, then, when we come to the word translated to mean "believe", it is most accurate as "believe", for the word is no longer to "the dead", but to "the living" - to Christ Himself, who we do not need to counsel to "obey", nor should we, for we do not speak to people, but to "Christ in them", and to do so would be an act of unbelief, that "Christ has come in the flesh."

    This is a marvelous work of the Lord, "that it may give [both] seed to the sower and bread to the eater" and "not return void."
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
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  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Scott
    I don't think we're trackin' yet...

    I'm not even sure I know what you mean by the dead in Christ having to walk out their faith.

    It's not about translation --- the believe and obey thing.

    Many will say that one ONLY needs to BELIEVE in Jesus and he will be saved.

    This is a problem because in the word believe is implied obeying.
    If one believes, one obeys.

    This is the point. It's simple. It's just that many have never heard of this. The word does not change from OBEY to BELIEVE because now Jesus has atoned for our sins.

    We still must obey God. He never changes, His rules never change, the Moral Law has never changed. It was not right to kill someone 3,000 years ago, and it's not right to kill someone today.

    The difference is that today we understand why and we're given the power not to by the Holy Spirit.

    One may have killed, one may have stolen, one may have lied---
    the premise applies to all.

    The words believe and obey are ALMOST interchangeable -- even today.
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    No, they are not interchangeable...and I just explained why. It is not I who has the power to say so, nor you, but God alone. It is only He who has providence over the perceived difference in translation over the course of history. It is He who has confounded the use of language (at the tower of Babel) for His own purpose.

    I was being nice to explain mildly. But now I will tell you plainly: to preach to "obey" is now wrong: "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That time of "obeying" was then, to those who are now dead (in Christ). But now, if we "believe" in Christ, we are "in Christ." And if you go around telling these little ones to obey - "you do it to Him."
     
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  19. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Very good post Scott......Yes, those few words you ended with......If people could take that to heart, they wouldn't be such bullies and overlords to their brothers and sisters in the Lord.
    I truly believe that people completely forget that part, and treat everyone with the same contempt, whether Jesus is in them or not....I pray and hope that they are doing so in ignorance, but of course people here claim to be anything but ignorant, so I'm not sure how that is going to unfold....it is clear from the writings that Paul was asked by Jesus :" Why are you persecuting ME?"......Of course Paul had no idea he had been doing that, he was just persecuting those who didn't adhere to his way of understanding God .
    I am certainly glad we don't get dragged out the front of the towns and get stoned to death lol
    A dangerous thing at times, standing firm In Christ !
    All the best....Bless you
     
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