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The Bible...

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by MUSTAFAA, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    *Revelation 22:18-19*For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. When we read this from the book of revelation is it saying this about the book of revelation or the whole bible? Because I have read that the book of revelation was not that last book written from the Bible, if so then I would think that it was talking about taking away or adding to the book of revelations only… Also the words "The End" where these in the orginal or were they added.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Taking it back to Greek, the word used for book is biblos. So there is a good hint as to the meaning. That's not nearly the only occurence: Psalms 12:5-7The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. It's not these words in just referring to that particular Psalm but it's all words. Going back to the book of the law: Deuteronomy 4:1-2Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Proverbs 30:5-6Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Mark 13:31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. In each case there is the definitive statement; don't mess with His Word. When one starts saying - "what about this verse, we need to throw it out because..." there is a problem. That's something you don't want to do.
     
  3. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Thanks for the references, but I don’t think that quite answered my question. I wanted to know if Revelations was the last book written in the bible and if the words “The End” which comes at the end of revelation was in the original text if anyone knew or not. The reason I put the question so specific was that I was thinking along the lines of if revelation was not the last book, and John put “The End” at the End of His book then did he mean to say he specifically warned against adding words into revelations or was he thinking of the whole bible. I see your point in the verses you gave me, what I think your saying is that we still have verses that would cover the warning of adding or taking away from any book in the Bible. [/COLOR] But if John knew of these verses then it would be no need for him to give the same warning that we already had. But since the bible had not been formed as of Johns writing of revelations and he was locked away on the island of potmos (not sure of the spelling) then it would make perfect sense for him to be talking about revelations only, and the “The End” quote added by him signifying the end of his book of revelations maybe not the whole bible. [/SIZE] One last point, when we say not to add or take away from the words in the books of the bible does this mean “ideas and doctrines” as well as words? I would think it would...
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Actually, the ending of Revelation is "Amen." This is one remarkable word because even in the translation of the word to the various languages: Latin, German, Italian, English, Swedish, Dutch, French and so forth holds the same in all these very diverse languages - it's always Amen. Even the Hebrew uses the exact same spelling when you transliterate it. It literally means it's certain; the truest of truths. John wrote this on Patmos because these are the words of Yeshua (Jesus the Christ). If you'll notice, the first verse of the blessed book is: Revelation 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ... Man has since given it the title the "Revelation of St. John the Divine," but the true source of it is the very first sentence of the book. The dating of this book puts it in the lifetime of the same John that walked with Jesus. The Companion Bible gives the date as 96 A.D. if you want the specifics. Keep in mind that regardless of order, if you believe in the book then you have to acknowledge the divine influence of it. John would have certainly known about the early scriptures, his teacher Yeshua told him about them and quoted from them quite often. It is not at all uncommon for things to be emphasized time and again. For example, Paul speaks of Jesus after the Order of Melchizadek for several chapters. Jesus himself has teachings on the end times in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 which all deliver the same message. From there, it's very safe to conclude that John was instructed to utter this verse because prophecy is serious business. If you get it wrong, and blindly listen to churches and not do your own study and own learning, it could easily result in worship of the spurrious messiah; the fake that comes first. Judgment starts with the Levites. We have a Bible Study on that dedicated to Malachi. What were the Levites? They were the teachers and preachers for the twelve tribes. Don't take my word for it though, look it up.
     
  5. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    That was my point, would the adding of the words “The End” and the changing of the title form “The revelation of Jesus Christ” to “The revelation of St.John the divine” qualify as someone adding and taking away from the words of the book. I would have to think that it would, because that would seem to make a big difference, to change the title from what it was sent down through divine revelations as. Who has the authority to make such a change? I think that since God would not make a mistake in any of his utterances then they should not be changed in any way shape or form. Except the case of someone speaking in tongues of course then someone would have to figure out what was being said.Personally I have never been able to grasp the concept of a book written edited and arrange by man to be the unadulterated word of God… meaning that to me it’s very hard to take oral stories and transfer them to paper after the fact and remain absolutely true to the original meaning and exact words. In the old days when man would pass tales and family stories down from one generation to the next it’s hard to believe that not one letter or sentence had ever been added to the story or taking out. [/SIZE] Do you know if any of Jesus 12 disciples would write things down as Jesus spoke them, or maybe keep something like a daily journal going. I have never been able to figure out why if they new this child born was the saver of the world, why they didn’t keep better records of his every word. We have hardly any words from the childhood of Jesus. And the story that we do have seems so strange; they make this long trip and don’t even realize that Jesus is not with them until a day later on the way back home, then spend 3 day’s looking for him. How could you let such a thing happen to the savior of your people, let alone the whole world? I would think that the lack of story had more to do with not wanting Jesus to be seen in a negative light, then with keeping detailed records. Because I would find it hard, or let me say almost impossible to believe that when Jesus was a child he did not do and make the mistakes of a child. This would be only natural for a normal child, but if that child was suppose to become the savior of the world then the people left to tell his life story would certainly want to present him in the best light possible. If Jesus had made mistakes and been proven wrong by someone discussing religion with him, then this would certainly not make it into the bible. I think that many people who read the bible or lead to believe that this is the complete record of the life and teaching of Jesus, when simple logic would dictate the error of that kind of thinking. For example why would the life story of a person not include more stories from the mother and father and family that raised and nurture that child from birth? It seems to me that if someone told me that he has received divine revelation from God then I would want to know the exact order in which that revelation came and exactly what was said… I guess we would have to look to the apocrypha for the rest of the story. Sometimes I think we have what we have because that’s all that God has revealed to us, but then I think that we must have some stories of people who new and grew up around Jesus and his family…But just because they don’t deal with his mission I guess people felt the have no place in the bible. I just have one last question according to the Christian religion which Bible would be the most true to the original text and which books would one look to out side of the bible for more detail of the life of Jesus?
     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You'd be suprised, I'd even point to the oral tradition of Islam. In a society where books weren't an option, people knew this stuff by heart. You can make the argument that things may have changed, but that's a personal matter and a choice I cannot influence. As a child of God one must choose to either believe God would care enough to make sure that His Word made it down to all of us or either he does not exist and therefore wouldn't care. I don't want to turn this into a debate of philosophy by any means, but I just don't understand how one can throw out some sections and not the others. If part of it won't stand, and one chooses to accept that, then none of it must stand. God's not going to send down a Bible through the ages that would mislead that masses so seriously as modern "scholarship" suggests.
    Do you know if any of Jesus 12 disciples would write things down as Jesus spoke them, or maybe keep something like a daily journal going. I have never been able to figure out why if they new this child born was the saver of the world, why they didn’t keep better records of his every word. We have hardly any words from the childhood of Jesus. And the story that we do have seems so strange; they make this long trip and don’t even realize that Jesus is not with them until a day later on the way back home, then spend 3 day’s looking for him. How could you let such a thing happen to the savior of your people, let alone the whole world?
    I cannot tell you exactly how the disciples recorded everything. That's a matter of faith. Either you believe that they recorded this with knowledge or you believe that they were done, possibly by someone else, at a later date. If the latter, what good were the teachings of the Son of God? Consider the culture back then. They would have been traveling in a group and it would have been easy for Jesus to slip away. We have the record that he slipped away easily from large crowds. He's the Son of God, afterall. Mustafaa, I understand your questions but then I must ask you what good would a recorded history of his life do? I quote Jesus when I say he say "Behold, I have told you all things..." Everything we need to know is there in front of us. What Jesus did as a boy has no consequence for any of us. There are some very solid traditions that he visited afar (as far north as what is today Glastonberry, UK but that's another thread for another day). That makes for a wonderful story, but that has no bearing on my salvation or Lord Yeshua as my personal Savior. The best translation is the KJV. A lot of people will argue until they turn blue in the face about that, but the KJV stays the closest to the original Hebrew and it captures the beautiful language as best as English can. The Hebrew and Chaldee is a much more complex language where one word can hold very deep and diverse meaning. There are only two sources for Jesus outside the Bible and they say very little but do seem to confirm his existence. The Roman historian Tacitus wrote indirectly about him in his Annals of Rome (I believe is the name) and then Josephus wrote about him briefly as well. There's a lot of debate as to the nature of Josephus as Christian or as Jewish, but either way it seems clear he did write of Jesus.
     
  7. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    There is a traditional story of YaShua as a young boy who traveled to Glastonberry England with Joseph the Tin Man... this is just a local song in Glastonberry. There is not any way to prove or disprove these traditional tales.
     
  8. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    just a bit of information, John actually wrote Revelation (about AD 96) before he wrote the Gospel of St John (about AD 100)I don't know when he wrote his 3 epistles, probably something we could look up [​IMG]
     
  9. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    PS.You have to understand that everything written in the Bible was written for our admonition, education, or as the standard for gaining eternal life.If it was filled with everything that Jesus did, then we would probably have an encyclopedia of Bibles. We don't need to know much about Jesus as a child, all we can gather is his mother taught him the scriptures well, and even though angels had visited her, she had doubts he was the Messiah.The whole croud thing where they lost Jesus, you see, Jesus must have done millions of other things, but only that which the Holy Ghost has stirred up these men to write, are the best things to give us lessons.For example, that story is there to show us, just how easy it is to lose Jesus, these people had just left the passover, unleavened bread feasts, and they left without Jesus. They were so busy talking with eachother they forgot about him. How easily, do we today do the same thing. We goto a great sermon and receive a blessing, but we leave and talk about whatever we want to talk about and forget about Jesus. Sadly, only two people of that whole croud realised that Jesus wasn't with us. And if you look, it took one day to lose Jesus and three to find him. That is a lesson in itself. Without such a lesson, i would probably lose Jesus more often then i do. So you must understand, everything written in the Bible is for our learning, even what the ancient Hebrew Sanctuary looked like. We can learn from the way Daniel and his companions handled themselves in captivity, and they probably did other similiar things, but God only recorded those which can be used for our edification. One thing, if God doesn't reveal something to you, you have to trust him. Why do you think Eve fell? She thought God was withholding something from her - the best fruit in the garden, and caused the gateways of sin and woe to burst open upon this world.And as your request about Jesus, you should try reading a commentary, i can give you the best one ever written.http://www.preparingforeternity.com/da/dacontents.htmGod bless!!
     
  10. For Life

    For Life New Member

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    Revelation 22:18 basically says if you add to this book you will be punished. Adding "The Revelation of St. John" and "The End" I think are wrong due to this statement. If I were better at languages I would read the original Greek and Hebrew texts.
     
  11. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    I don't believe that it's that simple a matter as to say you must except the bible entirely or reject it entirely. It would seem that the church itself has not been able to do this. This is why we have the split in the different churches. Some have a bible that has more books than others some have less. Some have different versions, which they believe have been reveled to their particular leaders or prophets so to speak (church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints). I have a computer program that has the KJV 1611; KJV 2000; Basic English Bible; Darby; World English and others. This has always been a source of confusions for me which one is right? What’s good about it is that I can look at the two bibles side by side verse by verse. In some places it’s not just a matter of making the verse more readable it’s an out right elimination of parts of the text! For example: (get verses)I don’t believe that this is done to cause confusion but only to bring newfound evidence and doctrinal decrees to the forefront of church thinking. But this in my opinion should be done out side of the original text like strong’s notes, but then the problem comes up as to which commentary is the best or most agreeable to your understanding or which would be more agreeable with your particular churches doctrine and teaching. To me the biggest stumbling block to our understanding of God is interpretation of these sacred texts. Even if we had one bible no different versions, we still would have certain churches and church father’s interpatation believe God had moved them to do, this is exactly how you see it today. Some churches see scriptures as supporting there view of speaking in tongs; laying on hands to heal; handling snakes; women not being able to hold positions as heads of church; the trinity… etc. But back to the point I wanted to expand on. If one should have to either except the bible in its entirety or reject it in it’s entirely then one would have to prove that the entire bible was from God without man’s intervention. Then I would believe it totally. But if it is partly man and God’s hand in it then I should not have to except it totally as all being divine scripture. I would like to give you a example of what I mean, when we read a list of family members in the bible this does not take a divine revelation from God to me. It’s clearly a list of family being preserved for future generations. Are when we see a certain town mention or describe this might be done just to put the story in a certain time and place in history. I see no reason why I should believe that this was part of a divine revelation and not just man giving details of his life and surroundings. So when you say we should believe in the bible every part of it or revject it every part of it because it is divine revelation all of it, then I would say why do we not need to be bother with the entire life of Jesus Christ, why do we focus only on this part and feel no need to know other parts. If we feel that his whole life was divine, perfect wouldn’t it all be worth having or at least knowing it?
     
  12. For Life

    For Life New Member

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    But if it is partly man and God’s hand in it then I should not have to except it totally as all being divine scripture.
    How would you ever know for sure? Wouldn't it be terrible if you convinced people that the bible is not 100% inspired of God and then found out later that it was?
     
  13. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Mustafa, if you begin to look at the generations, you should quickly notice one thing; even they have a purpose. In many cases, the generations tell us some of the facts about things such as the origin of the Arabic race(the line of Ishmael) and the lineage that would give us Jesus the Christ and fulfill the prophecies of his coming. The Bible isn't about Jeus the man; it's about Jesus the only begotten Son of God. As for the churches and their strife, that's what happens when man attempts to put his own design on things. We're left with this confusion because this denomination has decided to ignore this particular Scripture, or they have decided to interpret it liberally. Salvation is a personal matter. I accept the KJV and the ancient Hebrew and Greek as my Bible because I stronly believe that they are the best. No church nor pastor speaks for me. If you cannot make that choice, then there's nothing I can say that's going to change that to be honest.
     
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