The Bible.

[pia]

The Bible is undoubtedly filled with treasures, no argument there.....However, the varies pure gems of Truth and nuggets of Wisdom aren't just laying about on the surface, and to read it as such, can become a dangerous thing.
We see how quickly mankind lashes onto a 'thing' and slowly starts to elevate that thing above God Himself, not smart.......
It becomes a compulsion, a tradition, a side show even at times and the cause for much arguing and division among believers, all sorts of confusions, which in itself should make it plain to us, there is something we don't quite get about it..
With the Lord, the Bible becomes another adventure with Him, as you allow Him to reveal Truth and Wisdom etc. all the way throughout it.
Jesus once spoke of a man who had a field and into it an enemy sowed other seeds , and it turned out that the two had to stay side by side until they became full grown and plain to see, which was which........
He never meant for us to follow after these things, but if we insist on doing this instead of having an actual real relationship, He certainly is willing to help us, He always is, no matter where we get off to....
He said once :" There is an easy way and a hard way, most choose the hard way."......Yet another thing I have seen as truth now, since the couple of decades since He said it to me.
We must all be willing to learn from Him how to rightly divide The Word of Truth and it would be nice to not keep insisting that He stay within the confines of a few written pages ONLY !
Have a lovely day Pia

 

[amadeus]

@pia

The first verse below shows how things are when we study [even the Bible] with our minds alone.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Solomon wrote that about 1000 years before Jesus was born and it is still true today.

Today's Christians will often point to the following verse written by the Apostle Paul as support for learning truth from the Bible:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

Paul's words in II Tim 2:15 are directing us to study, but NOT with the purpose of learning the Truth. Our purpose in studying is rather to obey God.

The following words of Jesus tell us how to learn:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Going back to Paul's writings, we see how the Holy Ghost may use what we have read through obedience:

"Who [God] also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The "letter" is the written pages of scripture, while the "spirit" is the Holy Ghost. The Bible alone is the dead unresurrected body of Jesus. But... as we know while Jesus truly died on the cross, He did not remain dead.

Jesus is the Word, but He is not dead. When we eat His dead flesh [the written Bible] cannot the Spirit [the Holy Spirit that is] quicken [bring to Life] His flesh within us?

 

[FHII]

The "letter" is the written pages of scripture, while the "spirit" is the Holy Ghost. The Bible alone is the dead unresurrected body of Jesus. But... as we know while Jesus truly died on the cross, He did not remain dead.

You quoted 2 Cor 3:6. I and agree with your overall point, but the "letter" was in reference to the Law. I believe if you read verses 7 and 8 you will see how I come to that conclusion.

What I also see is verses 2 and 3. Making your point:

2. Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians is a special epistle in that Paul is heaping on praise and teaching to a badly injured church that grew with correction. Paul taught them in person and by written letter (3 times. Folks may miss that, but he wrote to them once before 1 Cor).

The new epistle written in their hearts was brought forth (or as Paul said, begotten in them) by his oral teaching and written teaching. They are equal in power in bring us forth.

In summary: The letter that Killeth isn't the Bible, was the law. The teaching by the Apostles and other inspired writers open us up to the spirit of truth who is the Conforter and the Holy Ghost.

Just my thoughts...

 

[amadeus]

You quoted 2 Cor 3:6. I and agree with your overall point, but the "letter" was in reference to the Law. I believe if you read verses 7 and 8 you will see how I come to that conclusion.

I agree with you on this as well. My pastor harps on that point. Since he received the Holy Ghost in 1936 and started preaching shortly after that, it is scarcely something new. What I see and understand is that God has more than one single message in scripture although overall it may be one message. Also He may use the same verse or verses for more than one meaning, depending on His purpose at the moment.

What I also see is verses 2 and 3. Making your point:

2. Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians is a special epistle in that Paul is heaping on praise and teaching to a badly injured church that grew with correction. Paul taught them in person and by written letter (3 times. Folks may miss that, but he wrote to them once before 1 Cor).

The new epistle written in their hearts was brought forth (or as Paul said, begotten in them) by his oral teaching and written teaching. They are equal in power in bring us forth.

In summary: The letter that Killeth isn't the Bible, was the law. The teaching by the Apostles and other inspired writers open us up to the spirit of truth who is the Conforter and the Holy Ghost.

Just my thoughts...

While I agree as I indicated that is was the law given in the OT, it is also, I believe, the Bible as given to man.

 

[FHII]

While I agree as I indicated that is was the law given in the OT, it is also, I believe, the Bible as given to man.

Peter said that Jesus was precious to us but a stone of stumbling to others. Paul said like things about us in 2 cor 2. So in that context I can agree with you. The Bible is leading many to salvation and more to damnation. It is in the reception of it (or rejection of it).

 

[pia]

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

Hello Amedeus.....I actually did a study on that verse, and if you look it up, the word the Roman Catholic church translated as 'study' , isn't just used as that word, and if you look it up, I am sure it will reveal itself to you, what it more than likely was supposed to say there,............. and thus 2 thousand years of christians fighting over which study, which book, which translation to study and defend to the death............. One word it meant was 'endevour' (with sincerety and strength ) to show yourself approved aso..........We must be careful not to set things in stone ! He died so we wouldn't have to follow that which IS written in stone....

 

[pia]

Peter said that Jesus was precious to us but a stone of stumbling to others. Paul said like things about us in 2 cor 2. So in that context I can agree with you. The Bible is leading many to salvation and more to damnation. It is in the reception of it (or rejection of it).

I would say it is the rejection of The Living Word of God which brings a person to destruction...Those who take it upon themselves to lead others purely by their understanding of what has been written is a GROSS error and a misuse of what was written.
The Holy Spirit was supposed to lead us and guide us into ALL the truth, not men's attempt to comprehend the mind of the people 2000 years ago, who were coming from one belief system to a whole other, in times of great difficulty, being under the Roman thumb.
To reject the Living Christ and replace Him with the letters written ABOUT Him is, in my book, just not the BEST He has for us....I have seen glimpses of His best and I would very much like to push into Him for more.......
Be blessed Pia

 

[pia]

You quoted 2 Cor 3:6. I and agree with your overall point, but the "letter" was in reference to the Law. I believe if you read verses 7 and 8 you will see how I come to that conclusion.

What I also see is verses 2 and 3. Making your point:

2. Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians is a special epistle in that Paul is heaping on praise and teaching to a badly injured church that grew with correction. Paul taught them in person and by written letter (3 times. Folks may miss that, but he wrote to them once before 1 Cor).

The new epistle written in their hearts was brought forth (or as Paul said, begotten in them) by his oral teaching and written teaching. They are equal in power in bring us forth.

In summary: The letter that Killeth isn't the Bible, was the law. The teaching by the Apostles and other inspired writers open us up to the spirit of truth who is the Conforter and the Holy Ghost.

Just my thoughts...

Of course it wasn't meant to mean the Bible .......The Bible wasn't put together until early 300AD, and then it was those men who decided which parts were for 'fit use' and which ones were not....did you know there were originally 22 or 24 gospels written down ( just as one example ) and many more letters from supposed Disciples of Christ.
The Holy Spirit can and does indeed use the Bible, quite often at our insistence , but He can do it without it or by using other things....He is NOT the one who is restricted, we are the ones trying to restrict Him, by always insisting that He MUST stay within those few pages of a book...Fancy us telling God that !........ Wonder if it makes Him giggle or shake His head lol
I adore my Bible and I often go over the things He has already revealed, to refresh my mind, but also I seek Him for answers to questions I may find within it....Having said that, He has also taught me a lot of things without the benefit of The Bible............Back in the mid 90's He taught me from something I had seen on the television, it was a science show, and what He taught me ( which I shared with others ) still hasn't fully been discovered by science, but many of the things He did say, slowly came to pass, as scientists were able to delve further into the human being, so as this was happening, my then husband came running one day to tell me he had just heard some new discovery science had made, and that it was what He had revealed.......It was quite a humbling moment.
By the way, science was my worst subject at school, I just didn't get it.....He has helped me enormously in that regard.....
Blessings always Pia

 

[mjrhealth]

Everything I know about God has come from what's written

And our mate BOL???

 

[mjrhealth]

I blocked him ages ago. Haven't seen hide nor hair in quite some time.

Well you see He reads and quotes the bible too, all he "knows about" God comes from teh bible. So do all those posts literally calling God the devil.

 

[FHII]

He is NOT the one who is restricted, we are the ones trying to restrict Him, by always insisting that He MUST stay within those few pages of a book...

I don't mean to discount everything you said in your post and only focus on this quote. It was all thought provoking and perhaps I will revisit the other parts .

But this part did intrigue me. Perhaps I misunderstand what you meant by this, but I do not see adhering to the Bible as insisting God stay within those few pages. I see it as God giving us a portion of him that we can grasp and understand. We did not write about who God is. He revealed himself to chosen men to tell us what we need to know about him. He Didnt give us less than we need to know, and he Didnt give us more than we could handle.

If anything, he gave us too much. A teeny bit too much just to keep us interested and thirsty.

No God is not restricted by the Bible. But that is the chosen measure of truth he thought good to give us.

My mindset is that God talks to us through the Bible. If there are other things, praise God. But the Bible is the foundation. By the way, it was finished when John wrote Revelation. 96 AD or there abouts. We caught up.we figured him out. He finished long before that.

In conclusion, we don't restrict God by the Bible. He put restrictions on what we know. What is wrong is when we add traditions and beliefs to it. Especially when it contradicts what it says.

So give me an example of how we restrict God with the Bible. How have we done that? What from the Bible has anyone said that is wrong? Has anyone ever been able to restrict God by the Bible?

(The last question is a trick question!)

 

[FHII]

I blocked him ages ago. Haven't seen hide nor hair in quite some time.

o

I blocked him too. Didn't want to and I actually liked him. But I set up rules for myself on how I would conduct business and how I expected others to interact. As bright as he is, I will not acknowlwdge personal attacks.

 

[pia]

Everything I know about God has come from what's written. How exactly is that a GROSS error and how am I misusing His Word?

o

Job, I wasn't writing about any person in particular, but rather the more generic people who have taken it upon themselves to become leaders of men, by reading the Bible ONLY, without any revelation involved.
You too wrote :" Everything I know ABOUT God"...........
All I have been saying all along is that He has something even better, The Reality Of Him, and for us to get to KNOW God, instead of second hand accounts about Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

So do you.

Yes, I hope you can see, you get out of teh bible what you want, 40000 denominations cant be wrong. There is a reason why Jesus went back to God so we, mankind could receive the "spirit " of God, teh "Spirit of truth" so we would not "lean " on our own understanding. The most you can ever get out of the bible is "knowing about" God, to know God, well you must spend time with Him, same with Jesus, there is no other way.

And as is so often, Why do I quote teh bible" , simply because moist wont listen to anything or any one else, not even God Himself.

The bible has much wisdom and truth in it, but you wont find it just but studying.

I once spent 2 days on a microwave radio course, at the end they asked me if i learned anything, I told them no, but when i get out in the field and start installing it, than it will make sense, and than it did, Its no different with God, to know God you must experience Him that comes by much talking to Him and lots of questions. and much learning daily in your daily life as He reveals Himself to you bit by bi. To much to take in at any one time.

 

[pia]

I see it as God giving us a portion of him that we can grasp and understand. We did not write about who God is. He reveal

Hello FHII....Thank you for your above average response.
O.K. first of all I would like to draw your attention to what you wrote there.....The first sentence.
The portion of Him, as you put, I have come to know differently......That portion is Christ In us (and with us ) and The Holy Spirit IN us, so that we may be lead and taught, by and through The Way, The Truth that we may obtain The Life. I started to look up scriptures but there are so many telling us this...I feel certain that you know your Bible inside and out.
One small part of John 14:21 says :" He who loves Me , will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Are you suggesting Jesus was blowing hot air here? Are you saying He can't do that, whenever He wishes?

and he Didnt give us more than we could handle

No in that you are absolutely correct, but I will tell you what happened to me.
Having been brought up atheist, I had a face to face encounter with Jesus when I was 30 years old....6 odd years later, I tried to join my first fellowship (church).
The first thing they told me to do, after having explained the receiving of the Holy Spirit was that I HAD to get a Bible, which to the day I borrowed one from my local library I had never read, so I did.
Then the Pastor assured me that it was Gods word and that He had inspired every word in it, and had preserved it through history.....Sounded awesome, and I wanted to do something back to Him for saving me the way He had, so when the Pastor showed me the bit about 'Studying, to show yourself approved unto God', I totally went for it, I studied day and night, got all sorts of help books, concordances and alike and ended up a complete and total mess, as I was a 'baby' Christian in my understanding.
Furthermore the pastor had told me to start with the book of Acts and keep reading from there, as the gospels were no longer relevant, he said.
Long story short........I had my nose in the books all the time, and began to ignore the real Jesus, right there by me, as indeed He is able to be with everyone.
I stopped asking Him for the answers, and thought somehow, I suppose, that I could impress Him if I found some answers on my own.........HUGE mistake in my life...Not saying that is for everyone, but it is available to 'whom so ever will' receive more of the fullness of Christ.
So just the letters of the new Testament was too much for me to handle, and that was AFTER having had His reality, revealed to me, which I can assure you, was a massive thing in an atheists life...Totally and completely unexpected and I wouldn't have believed that if I hadn't experienced it.........

We caught up.we figured him out.

Sorry but really ? That's rich....I truly think you need to spend a little time in prayer over that statement.
We have ZERO clue of Him until He reveals it to us, and I do mean reveal, because everything from His side, is so different from men's way of thinking and doing things. Every part of the 'flesh' and the world of man is in opposition to God, and that is not something we 'clever' little people can figure out for ourselves, like some recipe in a cook book.
I made the point in my first post, that going through The Bible WITH Him is an awesome adventure, but man alone....Nope !

Lastly, of course no man has ever been able to actually restrict God, but it doesn't stop men from trying....right from the beginning of the christian religion !
Jesus said to all :" Come to me.".............. The church said:" No No come to us, and we will show you, bow down at our feet and we will share it with you............
We will tell you what God meant.
In my opinion too much of that attitude still exists today in all the various denominations from the beginning of the Roman Catholic system and on to the hundreds there are today.
All of which hold up the same Bible, but all have different understandings of it........confusing !
Paul says He is not the author of confusion, thus some bits cannot be from Him..........
We need Him, to rightly divide the word of Truth and who better to do that with, than the very Spirit of Truth, sent to us by God, to dwell in us and with us, to lead us and guide us into ALL the Truth.
If everything Jesus said were all recorded in books I think the world, not big enough to contain the books which would be written.......John or Paul said this, and I agree, also it certainly doesn't lend credence to Him having sat silently on His throne twiddling His thumbs for the past 2000 odd years.
We all have to learn to give Him a lot more credit....Believe what He is saying and go for it !
"He who has ears to hear, to him more will be given."
"Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church."
"My Words, they are life."
"Receive the promise of My Father."........"Be sealed by His Holy Spirit until the day of your redemption."
I could go on for hours, but you do obviously know the Bible.
I'm just not sure I comprehend how many reject an actual, real relationship, a restored relationship with Him....God used to walk with Adam in the cool of the day in the garden.....Now we have the opportunity to walk with Him any time we desire to, any time we allow Him close, but so very very few choose to even give Him a chance to prove it to them, to really 'cement' your faith in God, as He doesn't force people into it........He is a very patient Lord, we can go fast or slow, as long as it is WITH Him.
One study I can highly recommend is one on every single line which has.... " In Christ", " In Him" or " In Whom"....written in it....It says so much....
Sorry, hope it didn't get too long, don't really like sending long posts, but sometimes unavoidable.
I hope I have made it a little clearer where I am coming from....
Be blessed in Him......Pia

 

[pia]

I guess I'm not as blessed as you are. All I have is my bible and the Holy Spirit to guide me through those second hand accounts.

And here I thought...

o

Nonsense Job, that's a cop out.......Do you not believe Him to be a Resurrected being ? A real being with flesh and bone ? Well I sure didn't, until confronted with it.....
Are you trying to belittle me over that ?
I have been saying all along, that as long as people do it ( go through the Bible ) with Him or with The Holy spirit, that is the way to the Truth, how can you have ignored all the times I have made that clear....???
Another is :" Blessed is he who has believed and yet not seen."
Don't belittle what / who saved me and set me on the path to the Truth......

 

[pia]

@mjrhealth Amen to that great post.....Wish we would not be seen as some sort of enemy for trying to point people to the Living Christ. ?

 

[pia]

Resurrected yes. Flesh and bone, no.

1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.


o

I didn't say flesh and blood.....He is however flesh and bone. See what He said to Thomas after His resurrection when He turned up in the locked room there....

 

[amadeus]

Peter said that Jesus was precious to us but a stone of stumbling to others. Paul said like things about us in 2 cor 2. So in that context I can agree with you. The Bible is leading many to salvation and more to damnation. It is in the reception of it (or rejection of it).

What we have is really a two edged sword. It will trim off the bad things of someone who has hope, but it will kill evil things. If a person has reached a point of being without hope [e.g. blasphemer of the Holy Ghost], would it not kill him?

 

[amadeus]

Hello Amedeus.....I actually did a study on that verse, and if you look it up, the word the Roman Catholic church translated as 'study' , isn't just used as that word, and if you look it up, I am sure it will reveal itself to you, what it more than likely was supposed to say there,............. and thus 2 thousand years of christians fighting over which study, which book, which translation to study and defend to the death............. One word it meant was 'endevour' (with sincerety and strength ) to show yourself approved aso..........We must be careful not to set things in stone ! He died so we wouldn't have to follow that which IS written in stone....

Oh, I absolutely agree.

As you may recall I read the Bible regularly in both Spanish and German. That already gave some insight into this question because of the words used for "study" in those translations, raised questions in my mind. The right answer is always God's answer. While the answer may be contained in the Book, the correct understanding of what we read comes from God alone.

Also as you say we are "to not to set things in stone". We must be pliable so the Master can form us into His image. We. all of us started with the beastly image of man, the same image into which man was changed when our first parents [Adam and Eve] sinned that first time. Let God write the truth in us rather than taking down as final what our logical minds might tell us...