The concept of "already but not yet", i.e., "I am" but not yet. Yeah right!

[ScottA]

This teaching was used on another thread as a way of rationalizing hearing the truth from God...but not seeing it (yet).

Sorry folks, that is called blindness.

When the scriptures come in present and past tense - that is what it means; and if you don't understand the timeless, eternal nature and truth of God, that is no reason to teach something else, saying "Yes, but no."

"But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

The scriptures are full of things that many do not understand. But to imagine that one who does not understand could use their own logic and lack of understanding to explain the complexities of God, and to teach theoretical nonsense out of such a lowly well...has one source "the evil one."

Please stop with the conjecture and theories and opinions. You are not helping God, but helping Satan.

 

[Willie T]

You seem to be one of the few people who understand that when John said "soon" and "shortly" in Revelation, he probably did mean "soon" and "shortly", and not some imagined time way off thousands of years into the future.

 

[Episkopos]

You seem to be one of the few people who understand that when John said "soon" and "shortly" in Revelation, he probably did mean "soon" and "shortly", and not some imagined time way off thousands of years into the future.

I think so too. When Paul says..."the time is nearer than we first thought"...was that because he was thinking a million years from then? I think not. A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.

It reminds me of the man who prayed..Lord for you a minute is as a 100 years and one dollar is as a million...so then can I have a million dollars please? To which the Lord answered...ok...just give me a minute.

 

[Helen]

I have heard the "Already-but not yet" spoken of as our state of being.

As in - "In Christ I am perfect, but in myself I am not yet experiencing that attainment of perfection. "

= Our Position and our Condition ...not yet made one in the fullness of the "one New Man."

I have never heard it ( phrase) as in the OP

 

[Willie T]

This is where I first heard about it:What Is The Kingdom: The Now And The Not Yet Of The Kingdom | Vineyard USA
What Is The Kingdom: The Now And The Not Yet Of The Kingdom
In this article, we explore the tension of the "now" and the "not yet" in the Kingdom of God.
Vineyard USA
Extending the Kingdom of God through church planting and missional living.
The Kingdom Not Yet
While the kingdom of God was breaking into the world through Jesus, all human suffering, pain, and difficulty did not disappear. In fact, it still remains with us to this day. For Jesus, while the kingdom of God was happening in the present, it was also yet to come in all its fullness in the future.

Through Jesus, God had inaugurated the kingdom on earth, but he would consummate it one day in the future. In practical terms, this means that when we pray for the sick (a hallmark of the Vineyard from the beginning), some will be healed and others will not. Yet, with faith, we pray confidently for healing and entrust the results to God.

The Dynamic Tension We Live In
In the Vineyard, we embrace this dynamic tension. While we believe that God’s kingdom can invade any moment of our lives, not everyone will experience God’s love the way we want for them. We rejoice when one person experiences a miracle of healing, while we grieve as another person succumbs to the effects of cancer or poverty.

Some Christians respond to this tension between the now and the not yet of the kingdom by saying that God does not do miracles today. They contend that the gifts given by the Spirit of God were just for Jesus’ time and are not available to us now.

Some Christians respond to this tension by largely ignoring the reality that suffering continues in the world. These groups triumphantly declare that the kingdom should always be experienced demonstrably in the here and now – or something is wrong. If we don’t experience a moment of physical healing or personal transformation, it is probably our fault. For them, unanswered prayer reveals a lack of faith in us – and we had better work up more if want to see God do what he has promised to do.

How We Carry This Tension In The Vineyard
In the Vineyard, we choose to respectfully step away from both of these extremes. John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard, was well known for encouraging us, “Love the whole church.” But we have certain values and practices as part of our common heritage, and they are what cause us to love being in this kingdom-centered movement together.

As we live in this interim time, the kingdom of God to come is our future hope. It is a day when the Scriptures tell us that “all things will be made new” (Rev. 21:5) and every tear will be wiped away from the face of the brokenhearted (Rev. 21:4). It is the day Isaiah prophesied would come (Is. 35:1-10), and John describes in his vision in Revelation 21:1-5. There will be no more innocent girls enslaved in the sex trafficking industry. There will be no more cancer. There will be an end to poverty. God will one day right this world. Toward that day, we trust, we hope, and we pray in the way Jesus taught us to pray: “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10).
Additional Articles in this Series:
1. Does Theology Matter?
2. The Kingdom Jesus Preached
3. Your Will Be Done
4. The Now of the Kingdom
5. Implications of the Kingdom
6. The Not Yet of the Kingdom
7. Shalom
8. How Do We Become Kingdom People?
9. Both/And
10. The Reign and Rule

 

[Episkopos]

Positional theology? As in...when I struck you that wasn't my real hand...since my real hand is already in heaven.

Or else...God can't really see me and what I do. I'm hiding behind Jesus.

or...I'm really not responsible for this sin my body just did...it's a good thing I'm covered because people go to hell for this sort of thing...

They do teach this stuff.

 

[Willie T]

Positional theology? As in...when I struck you that wasn't my real hand...since my real hand is already in heaven.

Or else...God can't really see me and what I do. I'm hiding behind Jesus.

or...I'm really not responsible for this sin my body just did...it's a good thing I'm covered because people go to hell for this sort of thing...

They do teach this stuff.

What nuts teach something like that?

 

[Episkopos]

What nuts teach something like that?

Luther started the ball rolling...saying that when God sees us He is looking at a dung heap with an ever fresh carpet of white snow over it so as to hide it's true nature. So we only APPEAR to be holy to God. We are hiding behind Jesus.

When you start at a dubious position like that...we end up with the carnage we see today.

 

[ScottA]

I have heard the "Already-but not yet" spoken of as our state of being.

As in - "In Christ I am perfect, but in myself I am not yet experiencing that attainment of perfection. "

= Our Position and our Condition ...not yet made one in the fullness of the "one New Man."

I have never heard it ( phrase) as in the OP

To be fair (and clear), it would seem delusional for one to look at their own self and say, "God says I have been made new (in other words, without sin) - so I guess I am!" But the alternative is not to believe what He has said...or to rationalize that our reality of days and times is the measure of God's own truth.

Those are the choices. But instead of relying on ones own understanding to rationalize what we have a hard time even imagining...we should admit our lack of understanding (if we don't understand) and say "I don't know - I don't understand. But I believe God." But many, just rely on their own nonsense to explain what they don't know and then teach it as the gospel.

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 4:7-8 gives us an important understanding...however in understanding it we must know that it only applies to the born again person, who has a love of righteousness and a hatred of sin...and therefore when it says that our sins are covered, it is referring to those things that develop as the result of human weakness and the fact that sin dwells in every one of us (1 John 1:8); so that all sin is covered as long as we have an attitude of hatred towards sin through having been forgiven through the blood of the Cross. Because we have been forgiven much, we also love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5); and if we love Jesus much, we love what He loves and hate what He hates...therefore sin is something that in our hearts as born again believers we have an abhorrence to...and this leads us to sin less (while we may not be sinless).

 

[ScottA]

Romans 4:7-8 gives us an important understanding...however in understanding it we must know that it only applies to the born again person, who has a love of righteousness and a hatred of sin...and therefore when it says that our sins are covered, it is referring to those things that develop as the result of human weakness and the fact that sin dwells in every one of us (1 John 1:8); so that all sin is covered as long as we have an attitude of hatred towards sin through having been forgiven through the blood of the Cross. Because we have been forgiven much, we also love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5); and if we love Jesus much, we love what He loves and hate what He hates...therefore sin is something that in our hearts as born again believers we have an abhorrence to...and this leads us to sin less (while we may not be sinless).

The problem is more one of the human tenancy to dwell in the ways of the world, rather than accepting the eternal "I am" nature of God after it has been given to them.

People want to consider that salvation is "a process." But there is no process with God or His business - He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Jesus clearly said that "today" is the day of salvation, and when He had done His part, declared "It is finished." But people who do not feel "different" (because they are not) have taught another gospel, which is not the truth. The word of God tells us that when we are saved, we are "a new creation", that "it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us." And those who have not experience this, campaign against it with men's logic. This is what is referred to as "the teachings of men."

Nonetheless, there is a reason that it would appear that nothing has changed and that it must surely be a process, and that is because we "each come in our own order" within the allotted time that God has given for our salvation. It is indeed "today", but tomorrow we become a witness to the truth as it has been prescribed, or to their own understanding, or to the reality that they have not been changed at all.

Also, the would-be ongoing sin of a saved person should not be confused with a job unfinished. While we remain in the world, we continue to carry out the judgement that "it is given once to die." Meaning, that while we continue to walk in the world, we carry that shadow of our former self until it is taken from us. Thus, we are instructed always to walk in the light.

 

[justbyfaith]

Salvation boils down to being perpetually forgiven through the blood of Christ...and then, the result: that we love Him much because we have been forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). Since this love is not based in fantasy but in reality, it is practical (1 John 3:17-18) and is the fulfillment of the law's righteousness within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Of course, there are those who are shown this kind of grace but do not respond to it properly...Isaiah 26:10.

Let favour be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

 

[Episkopos]

To be fair (and clear), it would seem delusional for one to look at their own self and say, "God says I have been made new (in other words, without sin) - so I guess I am!" But the alternative is not to believe what He has said...or to rationalize that our reality of days and times is the measure of God's own truth.

Those are the choices. But instead of relying on ones own understanding to rationalize what we have a hard time even imagining...we should admit our lack of understanding (if we don't understand) and say "I don't know - I don't understand. But I believe God." But many, just rely on their own nonsense to explain what they don't know and then teach it as the gospel.

Too true.

What is lacking is experiential testimony of the living God....like we see in the bible. Actually knowing God...not just knowing certain verses and the doctrines that twist the meaning of the word.

There is an experience of walking in Christ that the bible testifies of...but is very difficult to enter into. The lies we are supposed to trust in make it out that we already have what Jesus says we should seek for. The origin of all such lies is the devil himself. He doesn't want us to put on strength and defeat him. So he nips us in the bud, so to speak. We call it "teaching"....but really it is indoctrination.

So then there are a lot of people claiming great things....then there are a very few who are actually DOING great things.

Lord, Lord...see all the wonderful things we did in Your name!!! (well at least we thought they were great)

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed...and Jesus said to those who said that, I never knew you; because they trusted they were saved through being in the work of the ministry (by their works) but did not have the right kind of faith and trust in Jesus; and practiced iniquity on the side.

 

[Nancy]

I think so too. When Paul says..."the time is nearer than we first thought"...was that because he was thinking a million years from then? I think not. A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.

It reminds me of the man who prayed..Lord for you a minute is as a 100 years and one dollar is as a million...so then can I have a million dollars please? To which the Lord answered...ok...just give me a minute.

 

[Episkopos]

Indeed...and Jesus said to those who said that, I never knew you; because they trusted they were saved through being in the work of the ministry (by their works) but did not have the right kind of faith and trust in Jesus; and practiced iniquity on the side.

The iniquity was woven into their ministry. It's everywhere in our time.