The concept of existence and perfection

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

On existence and perfection

The aim of this paper is to describe the concept of perfect as it pertains to humans. We will start by considering this question: what are christians growing to become.The concept of growth is undeniably there when it comes to a person’s walk with Christ, but is there an end to this growth? Indeed, there is. The end of the growth is what is required to meet the demand that creates a bar one can grow to. The demand in question is God’s demand that all men be perfect and sinless. Therefore, humans are growing towards perfection.

However, if humans were perfect in self then they would be equivalent with Jesus, and God only has one son. Therefore, Christ is an environment in which a perfect being can exist. That way, there can be a perfect being who exists on a lower level of self than Christ. This means that being is not Christ’s equal and that God still only has one son.

A concrete value for this being is unknown, but it is set apart from the rest of creation. All of creation is simulated to be like this being since God demands perfection from all. God maintains ranking though by gaging how much simulation is required for each being to reach perfection in this level of self. The less simulation one requires, the closer to real they are and the more they are acknowledged. However, the real thing is far, far greater than even the closest simulation. So any being who is real on this level of self is far, far greater than any of the other beings on this level of self. In fact, the gap is so wide that using Job as a unit of measure when it comes to the greatness of such a being is an insult to that being. This being is what is known as the image of Christ, the thing all Christians are growing towards.

This is the end of the concept of perfection and existence.

 

[Episkopos]

On existence and perfection

The aim of this paper is to describe the concept of perfect as it pertains to humans. We will start by considering this question: what are christians growing to become.The concept of growth is undeniably there when it comes to a person’s walk with Christ, but is there an end to this growth? Indeed, there is. The end of the growth is what is required to meet the demand that creates a bar one can grow to. The demand in question is God’s demand that all men be perfect and sinless. Therefore, humans are growing towards perfection.

However, if humans were perfect in self then they would be equivalent with Jesus, and God only has one son. Therefore, Christ is an environment in which a perfect being can exist. That way, there can be a perfect being who exists on a lower level of self than Christ. This means that being is not Christ’s equal and that God still only has one son.

A concrete value for this being is unknown, but it is set apart from the rest of creation. All of creation is simulated to be like this being since God demands perfection from all. God maintains ranking though by gaging how much simulation is required for each being to reach perfection in this level of self. The less simulation one requires, the closer to real they are and the more they are acknowledged. However, the real thing is far, far greater than even the closest simulation. So any being who is real on this level of self is far, far greater than any of the other beings on this level of self. In fact, the gap is so wide that using Job as a unit of measure when it comes to the greatness of such a being is an insult to that being. This being is what is known as the image of Christ, the thing all Christians are growing towards.

This is the end of the concept of perfection and existence.

You have some good points...but I see a deviation in that we don't grow into perfection. Perfection is already there IN Christ for they who are translated INTO Him. The difficulty is actually entering into Christ. In Him is no sin. We are allowed to enter in by the approval of God who responds to our faith. The maturity of the believer is to remain in Christ.

Jesus provides the purity as a gift...but we learn the maturity that preserves that purity.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

You have some good points...but I see a deviation in that we don't grow into perfection. Perfection is already there IN Christ for they who are translated INTO Him. The difficulty is actually entering into Christ. In Him is no sin. We are allowed to enter in by the approval of God who responds to our faith. The maturity of the believer is to remain in Christ.

Jesus provides the purity as a gift...but we learn the maturity that preserves that purity.

You are indeed wrong.

Christians grow into the type of behavior that Jesus acts in. Although on a different level of self, they grow into that behavior. That behavior, which you qualify as staying in Christ, is following God's commands perfectly. In other words, it's perfection which you know by a different name

 

[Episkopos]

You are indeed wrong.

Christians grow into the type of behavior that Jesus acts in. Although on a different level of self, they grow into that behavior. That behavior, which you qualify as staying in Christ, is following God's commands perfectly. In other words, it's perfection which you know by a different name

We are speaking of perfection and remaining pure from sin. Walking as Jesus walked. So you are way off here. Just ask people who have been believers for 70 or 80 years and ask them if we grow into perfection or not.

Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works lest any man should boast. It is a gift of receiving the power from heaven to do the works of heaven.

 

[Enoch111]

The aim of this paper is to describe the concept of perfect as it pertains to humans.

You might want to make your thoughts more representative of what is in the Bible, but the basic idea is correct. God is perfecting His saints through the process of sanctification, and when they are glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture, they shall be perfected into the likeness of Christ. At the same time God justifies every sinner by His grace when one repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore in the eyes of God, the saints are already as righteous as Christ, since they are in Him, and He is in them. These are all spiritual realities.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

We are speaking of perfection and remaining pure from sin. Walking as Jesus walked. So you are way off here. Just ask people who have been believers for 70 or 80 years and ask them if we grow into perfection or not.

Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works lest any man should boast. It is a gift of receiving the power from heaven to do the works of heaven.

Growth is an instantaneous thing since God cannot condemn a person of not being perfect unless they could have been perfect. So don't go thinking it's something that takes time. This nullifies your use of age in this matter.
As for salvation being through faith, that is where the lesser level of self comes in. A being must beleive in Christ so that he may be perfect in Christ.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

You might want to make your thoughts more representative of what is in the Bible, but the basic idea is correct. God is perfecting His saints through the process of sanctification, and when they are glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture, they shall be perfected into the likeness of Christ. At the same time God justifies every sinner by His grace when one repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore in the eyes of God, the saints are already as righteous as Christ, since they are in Him, and He is in them. These are all spiritual realities.

You are wrong, sorry. First and foremost Christ is an enabler for beings to walk as he walked on a different level of self. Then, if someone can't achieve that, he becomes a blanket to cover their sins. However, the covering of sins is necessary for the begining for any being who achieves the concept described above since he comes in with blemishes.

 

[Episkopos]

Growth is an instantaneous thing since God cannot condemn a person of not being perfect unless they could have been perfect. So don't go thinking it's something that takes time. This nullifies your use of age in this matter.
As for salvation being through faith, that is where the lesser level of self comes in. A being must beleive in Christ so that he may be perfect in Christ.

This makes no sense....and is vague since there is no real understanding here. We become mature IN His perfection...or else we are just becoming more obedient over time. So we can improve but never be perfect of ourselves. perfection is instantaneous by entering into Christ. Remaining in THAT place takes a maturity of forsaking the world at all times.

And if we can't attain to that level of commitment and election of God...then we can always be humble and fear the Lord. They who do that are accepted by God.

Holiness in Christ is far above what men can do with their own faithfulness. But then if we add in our faithfulness to HIS holiness...well that's what saints are made of!

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

This makes no sense....and is vague since there is no real understanding here. We become mature IN His perfection...or else we are just becoming more obedient over time. So we can improve but never be perfect of ourselves. perfection is instantaneous by entering into Christ. Remaining in THAT place takes a maturity of forsaking the world at all times.

And if we can't attain to that level of commitment and election of God...then we can always be humble and fear the Lord. They who do that are accepted by God.

Holiness in Christ is far above what men can do with their own faithfulness. But then if we add in our faithfulness to HIS holiness...well that's what saints are made of!

Indeed, this makes no sense since you are lacking understanding on this concept, so I shall educate you. Let's start here, what is the image of Christ. Tell me, according to your understand, what the image of Christ is. What is it referring to

 

[Episkopos]

Indeed, this makes no sense since you are lacking understanding on this concept, so I shall educate you. Let's start here, what is the image of Christ. Tell me, according to your understand, what the image of Christ is. What is it referring to

Humility only makes sense to the righteous. The same goes for the fear of the Lord. You need to start there.

 

[Enoch111]

You are wrong, sorry.

Since I am giving you the biblical basis of perfection, it is you who is wrong. You have not provided any biblical base. All you have said is that perfect human beings will not be equal to Christ. But you know nothing it seems about glorification.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

Since I am giving you the biblical basis of perfection, it is you who is wrong. You have not provided any biblical base. All you have said is that perfect human beings will not be equal to Christ. But you know nothing it seems about glorification.

This Bible is the word of God right?

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

Humility only makes sense to the righteous. The same goes for the fear of the Lord. You need to start there.

You haven't answered the question. What is the image of Christ? Also, you are wrong on this concept, but I cannot make you understand as long as you resist this question process. You lack the mental structures to understand the counter to your point, so we must build them first so we can build off of them.

 

[DNB]

On existence and perfection

The aim of this paper is to describe the concept of perfect as it pertains to humans. We will start by considering this question: what are christians growing to become.The concept of growth is undeniably there when it comes to a person’s walk with Christ, but is there an end to this growth? Indeed, there is. The end of the growth is what is required to meet the demand that creates a bar one can grow to. The demand in question is God’s demand that all men be perfect and sinless. Therefore, humans are growing towards perfection.

However, if humans were perfect in self then they would be equivalent with Jesus, and God only has one son. Therefore, Christ is an environment in which a perfect being can exist. That way, there can be a perfect being who exists on a lower level of self than Christ. This means that being is not Christ’s equal and that God still only has one son.

A concrete value for this being is unknown, but it is set apart from the rest of creation. All of creation is simulated to be like this being since God demands perfection from all. God maintains ranking though by gaging how much simulation is required for each being to reach perfection in this level of self. The less simulation one requires, the closer to real they are and the more they are acknowledged. However, the real thing is far, far greater than even the closest simulation. So any being who is real on this level of self is far, far greater than any of the other beings on this level of self. In fact, the gap is so wide that using Job as a unit of measure when it comes to the greatness of such a being is an insult to that being. This being is what is known as the image of Christ, the thing all Christians are growing towards.

This is the end of the concept of perfection and existence.

You're rambling, based on invalid predicates. You seem to have absolutely no understanding of what perfection is.
Christ attained perfection. With many tears and supplications, trials and tribulations, he reached perfection. This is Christ's glory, that he achieved what we did not. Perfection is defined in two simple achievements, loving God with all one's heart, soul & mind, and loving one's neighbour as themself. All are eligible for these two requirements, and through studying and prayer, Christ attained perfection (yes, he knew the Tanakh better than anyone). God, the Father, was so pleased with his walk on earth, that he accepted his wholly devoted sacrifice towards Him. All the deamnds that were placed on Christ, were expected from us, i.e. be Holy as I am holy, be perfect as God your Father who is in heaven, is perfect.

So how in the world did you manage to place Christ's perfection at some disparate realm, removing any sense of affinity with his fellow humans? Making it out to be some philosophical idealism, that lacks any tangibility or efficacy for those who have partook in the flesh, just as him. You lack a Scriptural comprehension of perfection, and how it is both qualified and derived.

Hebrews 4:15
4:15. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 5:7-10
5:7. In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10. being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

You're rambling, based on invalid predicates. You seem to have absolutely no understanding of what perfection is.
Christ attained perfection. With many tears and supplications, trials and tribulations, he reached perfection. This is Christ's glory, that he achieved what we did not. Perfection is defined in two simple achievements, loving God with all one's heart, soul & mind, and loving one's neighbour as themself. All are eligible for these two requirements, and through studying and prayer, Christ attained perfection (yes, he knew the Tanakh better than anyone). God, the Father, was so pleased with his walk on earth, that he accepted his wholly devoted sacrifice towards Him. All the deamnds that were placed on Christ, were expected from us, i.e. be Holy as I am holy, be perfect as God your Father who is in heaven, is perfect.

So how in the world did you manage to place Christ's perfection at some disparate realm, removing any sense of affinity with his fellow humans? Making it out to be some philosophical idealism, that lacks any tangibility or efficacy for those who have partook in the flesh, just as him. You lack a Scriptural comprehension of perfection, and how it is both qualified and derived.

Hebrews 4:15
4:15. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 5:7-10
5:7. In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10. being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Not going to bother reading all that you said since it can be refuted with this concept: understand the concept of self and existence. Christ was perfect in God while humans can be perfect in Christ in God. There is a difference in level of self there, which is why he is higher than a being who reaches the same behavioral pattern. But to be honest, the concept of self merges with the behavioral pattern to create the final product. So although such a being might reach the same behavioral pattern, the final product is different because of the difference in level of self

 

[Paul Christensen]

We are speaking of perfection and remaining pure from sin. Walking as Jesus walked. So you are way off here. Just ask people who have been believers for 70 or 80 years and ask them if we grow into perfection or not.

Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works lest any man should boast. It is a gift of receiving the power from heaven to do the works of heaven.

Yep, I have been 53 years in the faith and I am nowhere near perfection. I think I have gone backwards. If Jesus hadn't have died on the cross to take the penalty for my sin, I would be sunk like the Jap minisub in Sydney Harbour in WW2!

 

[Paul Christensen]

The problem is with many is that they make a god for themselves that they feel comfortable with and who is consistent with their lifestyle. Any Biblical challenge, based on the Ten Commandments, which is consistent with the God of the Bible, to their lifestyle, will cause them to be defensive and abusive, and any responses will be directed at trying to discredit the challenger. This is because the protective bubble of their imaginary god is being threatened, and their conscience is also challenging their lifestyle if it is not consistent with the moral requirements of the Ten Commandments. This is why such people are very quick to accuse literal Bible-believing Christians of being wrong, misled and blind to the "truth" which is the subjective truth contained in their imaginary god. The real truth is that they are committing idolatry, which is a violation of the first and second Commandments where a person is not to worship any god other than the God of the Bible, and not to make an image of a god, which they are doing in making a mental image of their god in their imagination.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

Yep, I have been 53 years in the faith and I am nowhere near perfection. I think I have gone backwards. If Jesus hadn't have died on the cross to take the penalty for my sin, I would be sunk like the Jap minisub in Sydney Harbour in WW2!

That's your flaw then. Growth to the upper limit can be instantaneous, it just matters how strong the faith of the being is. You grow slowly, so your faith is very little. That is why you grow slow, not because it's impossible to reach those heights.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

The problem is with many is that they make a god for themselves that they feel comfortable with and who is consistent with their lifestyle. Any Biblical challenge, based on the Ten Commandments, which is consistent with the God of the Bible, to their lifestyle, will cause them to be defensive and abusive, and any responses will be directed at trying to discredit the challenger. This is because the protective bubble of their imaginary god is being threatened, and their conscience is also challenging their lifestyle if it is not consistent with the moral requirements of the Ten Commandments. This is why such people are very quick to accuse literal Bible-believing Christians of being wrong, misled and blind to the "truth" which is the subjective truth contained in their imaginary god. The real truth is that they are committing idolatry, which is a violation of the first and second Commandments where a person is not to worship any god other than the God of the Bible, and not to make an image of a god, which they are doing in making a mental image of their god in their imagination.

Next time you go off on a rant you might want to take the plank out of your eye. See the first post for reference

 

[Paul Christensen]

That's your flaw then. Growth to the upper limit can be instantaneous, it just matters how strong the faith of the being is. You grow slowly, so your faith is very little. That is why you grow slow, not because it's impossible to reach those heights.

Accusative comments stop the conversation dead in its tracks with me.