The Cross and The Devil

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Helen

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
 
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justbyfaith

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I already told you...Satan entered into Judas Iscariot in order to accomplish the final betrayal of Jesus. Satan was directly responsible, therefore, for the crucifixion of the Son.

I suppose it brings up issues of predestination, whether it be according to foreknowledge or whether everything was specifically preordained by God.

I think that if everything was completely preordained by God, that that makes God the author of sin.

But God is only indirectly the author of sin; in that He created His creation with the positive attribute of free will; which had the capacity of turning to evil. As it is written:

Rom 8:20, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God gave man free will, knowing that it would result in evil; but He did so in the hope that those who would choose good might experience the ultimate good when all is said and done.

All this to say that God was not responsible for the death of Jesus. From the perspective of being outside of time, He knew it would happen; and He even foreordained it to happen because He knew it to be a perfect plan to redeem humanity.

But I will say that it was the devil who struck the blow that killed the Son of God.

To think otherwise is to not understand what happened in those days as is recorded in the gospels.

There is not a lot of new information that I would bring to the table that makes it a thread I would want to publish...and also not a hill that I would die on doctrinally (i.e. I consider it to be a peripheral issue).

But I have presented my case in post #298 (Smoke Screens?) above. Since I have nothing more to say on the matter; and since it is not an issue of primary importance as far as I can tell right now, I do not think that I will start an entire new thread on the issue.

If you want to start a thread with the title, "The devil didn't murder Jesus..." then by all means do so.

I think in such a case I would simply bring up John 8:44.
 

justbyfaith

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To make it clear, the devil entered into Judas Iscariot to accomplish the final betrayal; and so was directly responsible for Jesus' death.

Also, John 8:44 makes it clear that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.

Knowing this, God orchestrated circumstances to make that clear to all of creation.

Knowing that in His Omnipotence, He would be able to raise His Son out from the power of death, hell, and the grave.
 
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Helen

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The Lord Jesus laid down His life'; death had no hold on Him. "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (John 14.30).

Agree
We read
1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
"

Rev 13 :8 " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

For me, Satan was but a tool, just as Judas was a tool ...to accomplish what God had Planned and intended from before the beginning.

So...I say, Satan did what God intended him to do.

Isa 53 "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him. " He saw the travail of his soul, and was satisfied "
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, he shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand
."

So..the GodHead did it. I can never see anything else.

It was Plan A from the beginning to bring forth union between God and His creation.
Nothing but the Blood would do it.
 

farouk

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Agree
We read
1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
"

Rev 13 :8 " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

For me, Satan was but a tool, just as Judas was a tool ...to accomplish what God had Planned and intended from before the beginning.

So...I say, Satan did what God intended him to do.

Isa 53 "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him. " He saw the travail of his soul, and was satisfied "
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, he shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand
."

So..the GodHead did it. I can never see anything else.

It was Plan A from the beginning to bring forth union between God and His creation.
Nothing but the Blood would do it.
Those are amazing words from Isaiah 53; calling on us to bow in humble adoration.
 

Helen

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To make it clear, the devil entered into Judas Iscariot to accomplish the final betrayal; and so was directly responsible for Jesus' death.

Indirectly not directly ..see post #6 I was writing as you were posting :)
 

Helen

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@justbyfaith

So what do you think the purpose of the Devil is...if not just a tool in God's hand to mature the saints as The Accuser and the final Tool to finish him when he killed the Lord of glory.

1 Cor 2
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which, none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
. "
 

GodsGrace

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
I'm with @farouk on his post no. 3

Jesus willingly went to His death...He could have escaped it.
He wanted the Father's will to be done.
Mathew 26:39

Angels could have saved Him:
Mathew 26:53

Usually it's asked if the Romans or the Jews killed Jesus.
I've never heard it asked if satan killed Jesus...
 
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justbyfaith

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@justbyfaith

So what do you think the purpose of the Devil is...if not just a tool in God's hand to mature the saints as The Accuser and the final Tool to finish him when he killed the Lord of glory.

1 Cor 2
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which, none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
. "

they did crucify the Lord of glory, did they not?
 

justbyfaith

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I have made my case that satan entered into the heart of Judas Iscariot in order to strike the death blow to Jesus in putting him on the Cross.

Was the Father in agreement? You betcha. But not for the same reasons.
 
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GodsGrace

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I have made my case that satan entered into the heart of Judas Iscariot in order to strike the death blow to Jesus in putting him on the Cross.

Was the Father in agreement? You betcha. But not for the same reasons.
satan entered the heart of Judas.
He was MEANT TO.

This is like saying:
John killed Mary....
but really satan killed Mary because he entered into John.

Gosh. Should we release all prisoners that have murdered because satan did it?
 

Helen

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they did crucify the Lord of glory, did they not?

Yes indeed, because they did not know what they were doing..= destroying them selves.

So was it their own hand which did it...yes..but directing the Devil's hand was God hand , and it always is.
 

GodsGrace

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Yes indeed, because they did not know what they were doing..= destroying them selves.

So was it their own hand which did it...yes..but directing the Devil's hand was God hand , and it always is.
Could we say that God allowed satan's hand...
rather than that God directed it?

God directed it makes it sound like God advises the devil as to what actions he (the devil) should take.

??
 
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marks

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
Just opinions . . .

1) No, we could not be saved without Jesus' death. In His death is our circumcision from the flesh man.
2) Interesting question. Did not Jesus release His Own spirit? Before His natural death would have occurred? I think Jesus Did in fact "just die". But after He was in an unsurvivable situation, without looking for remedy.
3) No, for the same reason as 2.

But though the unrightfully executed Man released His Own spirit, those responsible remain responsible as this was what was in their hearts to do.

Just some quick thoughts.

Much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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Just opinions . . .

1) No, we could not be saved without Jesus' death. In His death is our circumcision from the flesh man.
2) Interesting question. Did not Jesus release His Own spirit? Before His natural death would have occurred? I think Jesus Did in fact "just die". But after He was in an unsurvivable situation, without looking for remedy.
3) No, for the same reason as 2.

But though the unrightfully executed Man released His Own spirit, those responsible remain responsible as this was what was in their hearts to do.

Just some quick thoughts.

Much love!
Jesus said to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Did God Father forgive them?
 

JohnPaul

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I’ve read and understand that Jesus gave his life to save us from damnation, started by the original sin of Adam and Eve, the Devil did not have the power to kill Christ.

Lucifer was jealous of the fact that Jesus Christ being the son of God, had the say and preference of God.

Let us create man in our image, and did God not give us preference over Lucifer, which made Lucifer insanely jealous?
 
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