The difference between God's standard, and how one keeps that standard.

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shnarkle

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The apostle Paul said:"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,that we might be justified by faith.But after faith is come,we are no longer under a schoolmaster"[Galatians 3:24,25]

Some would say that because of the advent of the Lord Jesus Christ,we no longer need to keep God's laws which apparently are replaced by faith.The apostle Paul would have been contradicting himself as previously he said:

"Do we then make void the law through faith?God forbid:yea we establish the law."

make void - katargeo(Grk),make of non effect,abolish.
Establish - histemi(Grk),to cause to stand.

Is Paul saying we are no longer under a schoolmaster because of faith? How can he then say that the law is still applicable to christians and not abolished?

Are they the same thing?


The area of the Law which identifies sin is still applicable to us as Christians. "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

"Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:" Rom.7:7;

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."I John 3:4;

8" If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. " James 2:8-12

"The area which shows how sin is to be dealt with,ie the judgements against sin and sacrifices for sin is now in Christ and is no longer applicable to Christians. 11" But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. " Hebrews 9:11-15;

" 1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 10:1-10]

The word schoolmaster is translated from the Greek word;paidagogos,which carries the meaning of a guide,guardian or trainer.He is the one who disciplines and sees that the rules are followed.The schoolmaster does not give or state the rules to be followed but he ensures that they are followed or obeyed.According to Vine's Expository Dictionary under paidagogosos:

"...here the idea of instruction is absent.In this and allied words the idea is that of training,discipline,not imparting of knowledge.The paidagogos was not the instructor of the child;he exercised a general supervision over him and was responsible for his moral and physical well being."
The word paideuo(Grk) is an allied word and means to discipline and is the word used in Luke 23:16,22 and translated,chastise.Hence it can be used in the sense of "teaching a lesson" ie. something done to correct someone and bring that person to the right point if they had gone wrong.It is the same word used in Titus 2:12 and translated as teaching.

The grace of God does not instruct but motivates or encourages us to do what is right.In the old covenant(under the law) it was the threat of punishment,various judgements,onerous sacrifices which should have served this purpose but now the grace of God should motivate,discipline or encourage us into doing what is right.

14" For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." II Corinthians 5:14,15;

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, " Titus 2:11,12

Because of our faith or belief in what God has done, for us,through Christ,now being our motivator,we no longer need the discipline or motivation described by the law.This was the schoolmaster, not the ten commandments.Hence,it says it was added because of transgressions ie. some commands were transgressed and others(or a system) were put in place to combat or prevent these transgressions.

Persons who lived prior to God speaking the ten commandments at Sinai were aware it was a sin to break them and therefore these were the laws transgressed and others added to discipline and motivate those who transgressed.[eg The entire sacrificial system revealed during the Exodus and the punisments for sin. Numbers 15:32-36;Leviticus 24:10-23

The ten commandments and its associated laws are to instruct us in righteousness ie.teach wrong from right.They cannot forgive or remove our sins,only the grace of God through faith will accomplish this as we repent of our sins.How can we repent of sins we are not aware of? Paul said:


"...for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20b
And:

"What shall we say then?Is the law sin? God forbid.Nay,I had not known sin,but by the law:for I had not known lust,except the law had said,thou shalt not covet." Romans 7:7
Which is a clear reference to the ten commandments as a guide for the Christian to know right from wrong not a schoolmaster.
 

CharismaticLady

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@shnarkle

It seems by your conclusion that you still believe the Ten Commandments is the guide for the Christians to know right from wrong. The Ten Commandments is the Old Covenant. Exodus 34:28. It is also the old "schoolmaster." Did I correctly understand your conclusion?

Yes, Christians are enabled to keep the righteous requirements of the law, but you completely missed the point of how that is accomplished in a Christian according to the New Covenant. Try again.
 
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shnarkle

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@shnarkle

It seems by your conclusion that you still believe the Ten Commandments is the guide for the Christians to know right from wrong.

No. The ten commandments are the standard, or rather a distillation of God's standard. The Mosaic law provides a baseline of case law. It is a witness. Our guide is the Spirit witnessing with our spirit reminding us of everything God has already said.

The Ten Commandments is the Old Covenant. Exodus 34:28. It is also the old "schoolmaster." Did I correctly understand your conclusion?

No, not even close. They are two completely different aspects of God's law. There is a fundamental distinction between keeping God's law and violating God's law. When one keeps God's law "mixed with faith", they live. When they transgress God's law, there is a "law that was added because of transgressions" which is in place to deal with those transgressions. That sacrificial system pointed to Christ's sacrifice which is the only sacrifice that actually covers sin, and it only covers those who continue to sin despite their best efforts to keep God's commandments. The problem is that they haven't yet surrendered to the Spirit. They still continue to walk after the flesh. Those who walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh. For them their motivation isn't the schoolmaster, but the grace of God through the faith of Christ indwelling in them.

you completely missed the point of how that is accomplished in a Christian according to the New Covenant. Try again.

Given that you were unable to comprehend my argument to begin with, I suspect that it is you who missed the point, and might want to try again.
 

CharismaticLady

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The problem is that they haven't yet surrendered to the Spirit. They still continue to walk after the flesh. Those who walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh.

How do you surrender to the Spirit? How do you receive the Spirit in the first place?
 
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Windmillcharge

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Matt5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I wasn't aware that the earth or that heaven had been done away with!
Or could it be that the law is still in existence and still in force.

Mind you Christians, if they love Jesus obey his commands.
His commands are to love God with All ones being and to love our neighbour as we love ourself.

Strange that is the OT summary of the law.

How is it possible that Christians can belief that the law does not exist.

Because they want to sin maybe!
 
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shnarkle

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How do you surrender to the Spirit? How do you receive the Spirit in the first place?
You can't unless and until God reveals your desperate need to repent. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" God, and those who he chooses to reveal it to. People may get to a point where they see that they're not perfect, and see some vague need for Christ in their lives, but that's not repentance. When one sees how desperately wicked they are, then they're ready to receive the gift of repentance. You receive the Spirit the same way you received life in the first place.

People think they made a choice to be "born again" never considering that they had no say in being born the first time. It's no accident that he uses that imagery. We don't choose Christ, he chooses us.

When you're ready to surrender your life and this fallen world which is quickly passing away, you're ready to surrender to the Spirit. Surrendering one's life and possessions only truly comes with the revelation of the kingdom. Look at the parables where that discovery is always made prior to selling everything.
 
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CharismaticLady

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You can't unless and until God reveals your desperate need to repent. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" God, and those who he chooses to reveal it to. People may get to a point where they see that they're not perfect, and see some vague need for Christ in their lives, but that's not repentance. When one sees how desperately wicked they are, then they're ready to receive the gift of repentance. You receive the Spirit the same way you received life in the first place.

People think they made a choice to be "born again" never considering that they had no say in being born the first time. It's no accident that he uses that imagery. We don't choose Christ, he chooses us.

When you're ready to surrender your life and this fallen world which is quickly passing away, you're ready to surrender to the Spirit. Surrendering one's life and possessions only truly comes with the revelation of the kingdom. Look at the parables where that discovery is always made prior to selling everything.

Excellent. Yes, I agree. This is what was missing from the OP that I was looking for.
 

shnarkle

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Excellent. Yes, I agree. This is what was missing from the OP that I was looking for.

I think your observations are a sign of the times we live in. I do the same thing when I encounter people quoting scripture which I agree with, but which is also quite readily interpreted in vastly different ways. I think one of the biggest problems is that we're incapable of distinguishing between what it means to actually keep God's laws verses transgressing them. We can read Paul when he says: " “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. "

In a nutshell, Paul has pointed out the fundamental distinction between the old and new covenants, yet most people fail to see the fact that a holy people keeps God's commandments, and they keep God's commandments because they've been made holy through Christ's sacrifice of his body. They fail to see that Christ's body is the church as well.

My explanation is essentially no different than what Paul says here: " the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! "

That cleansing comes through the gift of repentance, sanctification, etc., but it necessarily follows that the conscience that is cleansed knows it is cleansed, and what it was cleansed from.
 

CharismaticLady

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I think your observations are a sign of the times we live in. I do the same thing when I encounter people quoting scripture which I agree with, but which is also quite readily interpreted in vastly different ways. I think one of the biggest problems is that we're incapable of distinguishing between what it means to actually keep God's laws verses transgressing them. We can read Paul when he says: " “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. "

In a nutshell, Paul has pointed out the fundamental distinction between the old and new covenants, yet most people fail to see the fact that a holy people keeps God's commandments, and they keep God's commandments because they've been made holy through Christ's sacrifice of his body. They fail to see that Christ's body is the church as well.

My explanation is essentially no different than what Paul says here: " the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! "

That cleansing comes through the gift of repentance, sanctification, etc., but it necessarily follows that the conscience that is cleansed knows it is cleansed, and what it was cleansed from.

In the Old Covenant of the Law, people had to keep it with a heavy burden on their back - their sin nature. Sin was always there nipping at their heals and their thoughts. That is what was wrong with the Old Covenant, sin was constantly in their nature. That is the struggle of Romans 7. The law vs. the sin nature.

Through complete repentance of our sin nature unto Jesus, He makes us literally born again and takes away the sin nature and replaces it with His divine nature. 1 John 3:9 shows us the outcome. We cannot commit sins of lawlessness against the Ten Commandments. That is why 2 Cor. 3 talks of the glory of the Old Covenant of the law is fading away. The Divine nature of the Spirit is much more glorious and thorough. Following the Spirit is how we "establish" the law.

Romans 7 vs. Romans 8: Law and sin nature vs. Spirit and divine nature. Before Christ vs. After Christ.
 

Episkopos

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Grace isn't found outside the law. Grace is within the law...fulfilling the law. We establish the law by grace through faith.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Grace isn't found outside the law. Grace is within the law...fulfilling the law. We establish the law by grace through faith.

Hi E,

Grace is one of those words that has lead to some unhealthy beliefs in the church that can actually lead to sin and death. You're good at this so why don't you explain what true grace is and how it equates to the Spirit.
 

Episkopos

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Hi E,

Grace is one of those words that has lead to some unhealthy beliefs in the church that can actually lead to sin and death. You're good at this so why don't you explain what true grace is and how it equates to the Spirit.


Well, there is the universal grace for a future salvation to be revealed from God poured out to all men of good will. If we follow our consciences and do what is right in the fear of the Lord, God will show mercy to us. That is God's love poured out on the world. All the world...not just the church. He sees our weakness and He has compassion on us. This covers the second great commandment to love others as ourselves. The royal law. These are deemed righteous by God. A righteous person is scarcely saved ...and will be subject to the saints who will rule over them in the nations.

Then there is the gift of grace which is by faith in Christ...not just for salvation but for glory...and to honour God with. That is by the gift of the Holy Spirit. As such this grace offers a higher walk and a higher responsibility. This grace, when walked in, makes us witnesses of the love of God to be a light in the world. This is the calling of saints. Saints will rule over the righteous ones in the next age. So then the gift of grace is over the universal grace in that the love of God is superior to the love that comes from men. Under grace means we are fulfilling both major commandments...but specifically to love God with all we are and have. A saint is abundantly saved. With rewards.
 

CharismaticLady

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Well, there is the universal grace for a future salvation to be revealed from God poured out to all men of good will. If we follow our consciences and do what is right in the fear of the Lord, God will show mercy to us. That is God's love poured out on the world. All the world...not just the church. He sees our weakness and He has compassion on us. This covers the second great commandment to love others as ourselves. The royal law. These are deemed righteous by God. A righteous person is scarcely saved ...and will be subject to the saints who will rule over them in the nations.

Then there is the gift of grace which is by faith in Christ...not just for salvation but for glory...and to honour God with. That is by the gift of the Holy Spirit. As such this grace offers a higher walk and a higher responsibility. This grace, when walked in, makes us witnesses of the love of God to be a light in the world. This is the calling of saints. Saints will rule over the righteous ones in the next age. So then the gift of grace is over the universal grace in that the love of God is superior to the love that comes from men. Under grace means we are fulfilling both major commandments...but specifically to love God with all we are and have. A saint is abundantly saved. With rewards.

Thanks E. I like that. The false interpretation of grace spun by Martin Luther was that no sin, however egregious, can separate us from God. ("even if we committed murder and adultery 1000 times a day") What percentage of the Church do you think believes that heresy? I don't think many Lutherans even believe that anymore, but I've seen this error believed by some forum members. That is scary.
 

Episkopos

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Thanks E. I like that. The false interpretation of grace spun by Martin Luther was that no sin, however egregious, can separate us from God. ("even if we committed murder and adultery 1000 times a day") What percentage of the Church do you think believes that heresy? I don't think many Lutherans even believe that anymore, but I've seen this error believed by some forum members. That is scary.


Actually holiness tolerates NO sin at all...otherwise it isn't holiness. A little leaven.... Holiness does not forgive. But God is also righteous. Righteousness forgives. Sin continues to separate people from God. God continues to be holy! :)

The righteous are scarcely saved...but are still saved if they endure to the end. God accepts these. The holy ones are abundantly saved. These are pleasing to God.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Actually holiness tolerates NO sin at all...otherwise it isn't holiness. A little leaven.... Holiness does not forgive. But God is also righteous. Righteousness forgives. Sin continues to separate people from God. God continues to be holy! :)

The righteous are scarcely saved...but are still saved if they endure to the end. God accepts these. The holy ones are abundantly saved. These are pleasing to God.

They seem to believe that the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to them and covers all their ongoing sins. But John says, "He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." Revelation 22:11 shows the two types of Christians that will have eternal life - righteous and holy.
 
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Windmillcharge

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Thanks E. I like that. The false interpretation of grace spun by Martin Luther was that no sin, however egregious, can separate us from God. ("even if we committed murder and adultery 1000 times a day") What percentage of the Church do you think believes that heresy? I don't think many Lutherans even believe that anymore, but I've seen this error believed by some forum members. That is scary.

Please clarify for me.
From what you've written it appears that you believe that Jesus's holiness and willingness to forgive is limited. That Christians if they full into sin will reach a point where they will nolonger find forgiveness.

Is this what you believe?
 

CharismaticLady

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Please clarify for me.
From what you've written it appears that you believe that Jesus's holiness and willingness to forgive is limited. That Christians if they full into sin will reach a point where they will nolonger find forgiveness.

Is this what you believe?

Christians do not murder or commit adultery because it is not in their new nature. If they willingly commit one of the sins of lawlessness, they would have to truly repent and turn away completely from this type of sin. Without repentance Jesus is not our Advocate, like He is on trespasses while we forgive others their trespasses against us. We have to purify ourselves, for anything less will not have eternal life.
 

Windmillcharge

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Christians do not murder or commit adultery because it is not in their new nature. If they willingly commit one of the sins of lawlessness, they would have to truly repent and turn away completely from this type of sin. Without repentance Jesus is not our Advocate, like He is on trespasses while we forgive others their trespasses against us. We have to purify ourselves, for anything less will not have eternal life.

Thank you.

Christians come from all walks of life and frequently back slide. Most of us deliberatly commit sin. Yes we then need to repent of those sins.

Ever heard of hypoberly, the greatly exagerated discription. Luther was a great one for big illistrations and it gives an idea of how far Jesus has gone and will go in order to save us.

One point I disagree on.
We do not purify ourselves, it is all done by Jesus.
 

CharismaticLady

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Thank you.

Christians come from all walks of life and frequently back slide. Most of us deliberatly commit sin. Yes we then need to repent of those sins.

Ever heard of hypoberly, the greatly exagerated discription. Luther was a great one for big illistrations and it gives an idea of how far Jesus has gone and will go in order to save us.

One point I disagree on.
We do not purify ourselves, it is all done by Jesus.

We have a part in our own purification by choosing not to sin. 1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

I will make a lot of statements, but usually my words are quotes from Scripture.