The Divine Son's of God

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What do you think is the nature of Satan

  • Human - with some divine characteristics "special powers"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Angel - one with a lot of power - akin to that of a lesser diety

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Son of God - as stated in the Bible - which explains his special powers.

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Other - no idea what this might be but thought it should be included.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Heyzeus

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Many have wondered who these "Sons of God" are who keep cropping up in the Bible.
A few passages from Deuteronomy may shed some light on this question.

Deut 32:8
“When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the divine sons: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance.”

Deut 32:43
"O heavens, rejoice with him, Bow to him all sons of the divine (sons of God)
O nations, rejoice with His people, and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him. For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
Be vengeful and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes, requite those who reject him, and the Lord will Cleanse His peoples Land"

So what do we learn from Deuteronomy

1) YHWH was a son of the Most High (El - Elyon) - YHWH's inheritance was the people of Israel/Jacob.

To the ancient Israelite's there was a Divine Pantheon - with each town having a more local God that they would worship .. in the case of Israel this was YHWH.

So even though the Israelite's believed in other Gods - they were only to worship one ..and that was YHWH .. so they were not Polytheistic.

2) In the second passage we find out that the "sons of God" are not angels .. but actual Son's of the Divine .. like YHWH is depicted in the passage that proceeds this one.

3) This helps us out with knowing the divine nature of Satan .. as per Job 1:6

"One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?"

So Satan is a Son of God.

4) we also learn something about the "most high" - that on occasion these lesser God's will visit the most high.
 

DNB

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Many have wondered who these "Sons of God" are who keep cropping up in the Bible.
A few passages from Deuteronomy may shed some light on this question.

Deut 32:8
“When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the divine sons: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance.”

Deut 32:43
"O heavens, rejoice with him, Bow to him all sons of the divine (sons of God)
O nations, rejoice with His people, and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him. For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
Be vengeful and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes, requite those who reject him, and the Lord will Cleanse His peoples Land"

So what do we learn from Deuteronomy

1) YHWH was a son of the Most High (El - Elyon) - YHWH's inheritance was the people of Israel/Jacob.

To the ancient Israelite's there was a Divine Pantheon - with each town having a more local God that they would worship .. in the case of Israel this was YHWH.

So even though the Israelite's believed in other Gods - they were only to worship one ..and that was YHWH .. so they were not Polytheistic.

2) In the second passage we find out that the "sons of God" are not angels .. but actual Son's of the Divine .. like YHWH is depicted in the passage that proceeds this one.

3) This helps us out with knowing the divine nature of Satan .. as per Job 1:6

"One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?"

So Satan is a Son of God.

4) we also learn something about the "most high" - that on occasion these lesser God's will visit the most high.
How in the world did you, by the reading the Bible in its entirety, come to the conclusion that you did?
God chose Israel to reveal Himself to all the nations. And that by the one man, Jesus Christ, this came to pass. So that all nations under the sun, might recognize the one and only, true and almighty God, the Father, and His precedential creation, Jesus Christ. Israel was abandoned by the one and only true God, for a time, until the Gentiles (all other nations of the entire world) would be drawn into the Kingdom of His son alongside the chosen Israelites. And then, the time for the rehabilitation of the Israelites would take place, aroused by jealousy of the Gentiles. God, the one and only deity in the entire universe, will have mercy on all nations on earth.
Any Israelite who believed in any other God but the Father, YHWH, was to be stoned to death. And any nations that believed in other gods but the Father, YHWH, became the victims of genocide by YHWH's command.
 

Heyzeus

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How in the world did you, by the reading the Bible in its entirety, come to the conclusion that you did?
God chose Israel to reveal Himself to all the nations. And that by the one man, Jesus Christ, this came to pass. So that all nations under the sun, might recognize the one and only, true and almighty God, the Father, and His precedential creation, Jesus Christ. Israel was abandoned by the one and only true God, for a time, until the Gentiles (all other nations of the entire world) would be drawn into the Kingdom of His son alongside the chosen Israelites. And then, the time for the rehabilitation of the Israelites would take place, aroused by jealousy of the Gentiles. God, the one and only deity in the entire universe, will have mercy on all nations on earth.

What conclusion are you referring to .. the rest of your post is navel gazing and unsupported speculation - that does not much relate to my post - other than very indirectly.

Any Israelite who believed in any other God but the Father, YHWH, was to be stoned to death. And any nations that believed in other gods but the Father, YHWH, became the victims of genocide by YHWH's command

The above claim is false .. on many levels. It is true that the above was part of "The Law" - but that is not what was practiced .. and this has nothing to do with the Other divinities mentioned in "The Bible" .. on numerous occasions.
 

DNB

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What conclusion are you referring to .. the rest of your post is navel gazing and unsupported speculation - that does not much relate to my post - other than very indirectly.
The above claim is false .. on many levels. It is true that the above was part of "The Law" - but that is not what was practiced .. and this has nothing to do with the Other divinities mentioned in "The Bible" .. on numerous occasions.
This conclusion, and all the implications of it.

1) YHWH was a son of the Most High (El - Elyon) - YHWH's inheritance was the people of Israel/Jacob.
To the ancient Israelite's there was a Divine Pantheon - with each town having a more local God that they would worship .. in the case of Israel this was YHWH.
So even though the Israelite's believed in other Gods - they were only to worship one ..and that was YHWH .. so they were not Polytheistic.


Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is one. YHWH spoke to Moses at the bush, and has said since and countless times, that there are no other gods but Him.
The Israelites may have strayed by committing idolatry to other nation's so-called gods, but this was demons. And this was not the mandate, nor the truth.

1 Corinthians 10:19-20
10:19. What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20. No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
 

Heyzeus

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This conclusion, and all the implications of it.

1) YHWH was a son of the Most High (El - Elyon) - YHWH's inheritance was the people of Israel/Jacob.
To the ancient Israelite's there was a Divine Pantheon - with each town having a more local God that they would worship .. in the case of Israel this was YHWH.
So even though the Israelite's believed in other Gods - they were only to worship one ..and that was YHWH .. so they were not Polytheistic.


Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is one. YHWH spoke to Moses at the bush, and has said since and countless times, that there are no other gods but Him.
The Israelites may have strayed by committing idolatry to other nation's so-called gods, but this was demons. And this was not the mandate, nor the truth.

1 Corinthians 10:19-20
10:19. What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20. No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

Not sure why you would quote Corinthians when discussing OT names of God - this makes no sense.

but yes .. as per the Bible YHWH is a son of El - and this is in keeping with the historical and biblical and archaeological scholarship - along with Theological Scholarship .. which States that the God of Abraham was El -

In Deut 32:8 - YHWH is cast as a son .. but this is the only artifact .. or .. and more likely what happened - YHWH supplanted El - and there were many paths by which this happened .. Just as Baal was a Son of El .. also was YHWH ... which is why they fight back and forth so much in the Bible..

but why should this concern us - Jesus .. the new Son .. has supplanted El-YHWH - same God ... Creator - The Father - "The Most High" God who dwelt in the Mountain - and so on .. that fellow who keeps cropping up ..

God is one - either way. Funny thing - El - Enlil - was Chief God of the Sumerian Pantheon - "The Most High" to Terah and Shem and Noah.. ..Terah was and idol maker who was worshiping other Gods... Abraham returned to the worship of the one God . the Most High .. which is who everyone worshiped as the Most High .. even the Canaanites .. Babylonians/Assyrians -

Was Round 1800 BC that God handed down the Law Code to Hammurabi - or so the story Goes ... El being of course the "Most High" of the pantheon but general worship was starting to forget him .. all kinds of other Gods were being worshiped .. and Abraham rebelled against these practices.

The Israelite's again forgot all about El .. as Joshua 24 tells us - his farewell speech - while in captivity in Egypt..

Round the time of Akenaten - monotheism reared its ugly head in Egypt for a short time ... this religious rebellion put down by Ramses.
Moses - like Abraham tried to get people to dispense with these other Gods and Worship only with The Most High - God who dwells in the Mountain - known as El Shaddai to Abraham - cept now this God of the Mountain is called YHWH .. or El YHWH = Lord YHWH.



T
 

DNB

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Not sure why you would quote Corinthians when discussing OT names of God - this makes no sense.

but yes .. as per the Bible YHWH is a son of El - and this is in keeping with the historical and biblical and archaeological scholarship - along with Theological Scholarship .. which States that the God of Abraham was El -

In Deut 32:8 - YHWH is cast as a son .. but this is the only artifact .. or .. and more likely what happened - YHWH supplanted El - and there were many paths by which this happened .. Just as Baal was a Son of El .. also was YHWH ... which is why they fight back and forth so much in the Bible..

but why should this concern us - Jesus .. the new Son .. has supplanted El-YHWH - same God ... Creator - The Father - "The Most High" God who dwelt in the Mountain - and so on .. that fellow who keeps cropping up ..

God is one - either way. Funny thing - El - Enlil - was Chief God of the Sumerian Pantheon - "The Most High" to Terah and Shem and Noah.. ..Terah was and idol maker who was worshiping other Gods... Abraham returned to the worship of the one God . the Most High .. which is who everyone worshiped as the Most High .. even the Canaanites .. Babylonians/Assyrians -

Was Round 1800 BC that God handed down the Law Code to Hammurabi - or so the story Goes ... El being of course the "Most High" of the pantheon but general worship was starting to forget him .. all kinds of other Gods were being worshiped .. and Abraham rebelled against these practices.

The Israelite's again forgot all about El .. as Joshua 24 tells us - his farewell speech - while in captivity in Egypt..

Round the time of Akenaten - monotheism reared its ugly head in Egypt for a short time ... this religious rebellion put down by Ramses.
Moses - like Abraham tried to get people to dispense with these other Gods and Worship only with The Most High - God who dwells in the Mountain - known as El Shaddai to Abraham - cept now this God of the Mountain is called YHWH .. or El YHWH = Lord YHWH.



T
Just to clarify, are you asserting that there are more than one entity that is deity, within our universe, namely El & YHWH?
As far as any monotheist is concerned, El is YHWH is Hashem is Adonai is Elah is Abba is Avinu is Melech is Elohim. The context determines when they are speaking of God, the Father, the only divine, transcendent, omnipotent and omnipresent and supreme being of the universe.
 

Heyzeus

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Just to clarify, are you asserting that there are more than one entity that is deity, within our universe, namely El & YHWH?
As far as any monotheist is concerned, El is YHWH is Hashem is Adonai is Elah is Abba is Avinu is Melech is Elohim. The context determines when they are speaking of God, the Father, the only divine, transcendent, omnipotent and omnipresent and supreme being of the universe.

No.. I am asserting that YHWH is El .. they are the same God .. God of the Mountain - "The FAther" Creator - Most High.

and I am also asserting that it doesn't matter which label one uses ..for the Big Chief .. there has always been one .. El was the big Chief of the Sumerian Pantheon ... and cultures that came out of that (Babylonians - Assyrians - Canaanites - Israelites - and everyone else as they are all closely related at this point) .... this is an empire that lasts 3000 years .. its religious traditions are well known and wide spread. Abraham is from UR - in Babylon .. Sumer Central - El is the Big Chief .. but Daddy is worshiping other Gods - as are the people of Babylon in General.

Abraham worships the Big Chief .. God who dwells in the Mountain - El Shaddai - also known in the Canaanite Pantheon ..also the same stories as in the Bible.. shared religious traditions are both evident and abundant ..

In any case - modern Scholarship states that the God of Abraham was El - and this makes perfect sense ... and in now way degrades the status of YHWH .. if viewed from a certain perspective. .. that YHWH is .. El Shaddai ... is he not the God who Dwells in the Mountain ? the "Father - Creator - Most High". If it looks like a duck .. and walks like a duck .. and quacks .. perhaps its a duck ?

I have a different perspective but the other is perfectly valid.
 

DNB

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No.. I am asserting that YHWH is El .. they are the same God .. God of the Mountain - "The FAther" Creator - Most High.

and I am also asserting that it doesn't matter which label one uses ..for the Big Chief .. there has always been one .. El was the big Chief of the Sumerian Pantheon ... and cultures that came out of that (Babylonians - Assyrians - Canaanites - Israelites - and everyone else as they are all closely related at this point) .... this is an empire that lasts 3000 years .. its religious traditions are well known and wide spread. Abraham is from UR - in Babylon .. Sumer Central - El is the Big Chief .. but Daddy is worshiping other Gods - as are the people of Babylon in General.

Abraham worships the Big Chief .. God who dwells in the Mountain - El Shaddai - also known in the Canaanite Pantheon ..also the same stories as in the Bible.. shared religious traditions are both evident and abundant ..

In any case - modern Scholarship states that the God of Abraham was El - and this makes perfect sense ... and in now way degrades the status of YHWH .. if viewed from a certain perspective. .. that YHWH is .. El Shaddai ... is he not the God who Dwells in the Mountain ? the "Father - Creator - Most High". If it looks like a duck .. and walks like a duck .. and quacks .. perhaps its a duck ?

I have a different perspective but the other is perfectly valid.
If by chance I have misunderstood your position, for judging by your latest post to me, it appears that I may have, I apologize for misrepresenting you, or being contentious over an issue where there was no disagreement.
I must admit, I'm still not sure if I am following you 100%, but that may be due to my presumptions about your position?
Either way, thanks for the attempts at clarity, please excuse my inability to follow your thesis right now.
 

Heyzeus

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If by chance I have misunderstood your position, for judging by your latest post to me, it appears that I may have, I apologize for misrepresenting you, or being contentious over an issue where there was no disagreement.
I must admit, I'm still not sure if I am following you 100%, but that may be due to my presumptions about your position?
Either way, thanks for the attempts at clarity, please excuse my inability to follow your thesis right now.

My position allows me to revel in all the ancient history - of which I am an avid scholar - but also affords me the ability to include Jesus among the divinities of the Godhead.
 

DNB

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My position allows me to revel in all the ancient history - of which I am an avid scholar - but also affords me the ability to include Jesus among the divinities of the Godhead.
Yes, you appear rather astute in ancient histories (maybe modern also?).
...but, now I have a found a profound disagreement. Again, there is only one divine being in the entire universe, and that is God, the Father. He is the God that established the Rainbow Covenant with Noah, the Covenant of circumcision and extended lineage with Abraham, the Covenant of the Sabbath and Torah with Moses, the Messianic Covenant with King David. And, He is the one who chose His precedential creation, Jesus Christ, as the first-born of creation, the first-born from the dead, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, the fulfillment of the Davidic promise.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, and Jesus Christ, was not, and is not, and never will be, divine.
 

Heyzeus

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Yes, you appear rather astute in ancient histories (maybe modern also?).
...but, now I have a found a profound disagreement. Again, there is only one divine being in the entire universe, and that is God, the Father. He is the God that established the Rainbow Covenant with Noah, the Covenant of circumcision and extended lineage with Abraham, the Covenant of the Sabbath and Torah with Moses, the Messianic Covenant with King David. And, He is the one who chose His precedential creation, Jesus Christ, as the first-born of creation, the first-born from the dead, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, the fulfillment of the Davidic promise.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, and Jesus Christ, was not, and is not, and never will be, divine.

Well - the OT scriptures claim "divinities" - and they do so alot ..specially if you go to the older texts. the Modern translation has been wiped relatively clean on some passages .. although there still exists some of the old stories.

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

Note that in Deut 32:43 the different layers of divinities.. "Sons of God" at the top up with God in heaven .. also pictured this way in Job..
followed by the nations on a lower tier .. and then Angels lower yet -interestingly ..

John in his Logos terminology also invokes - while not 'sons of God" .. some kind of godhead.

So one can take a whole bunch from scripture. What I think is something different - altogether but similar .. I think God has a few bro's - and broesses around from time to time.. think it is sad we took the feminine out of the Holy Trinity .. not so Holy without her in it.

but answer this .. when you get into heaven .. and after a million years of hair Mary's every day - decide to take a vacation - where will you go. The main rule being that while on vacation you will not remember your past life.

See in heaven .. rather than 200 channels - there are millions .. different worlds to choose from -

The God's like to set up experiments here and there ... us lesser beings can't do that ..
 

DNB

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Well - the OT scriptures claim "divinities" - and they do so alot ..specially if you go to the older texts. the Modern translation has been wiped relatively clean on some passages .. although there still exists some of the old stories.

Deut 32:8-9 “When the Most High (El -Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance, When He divided up humanity, He fixed the boundaries for peoples, According to the number of the sons of the divine: For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob His own inheritance

Deut 32:43
O heavens, rejoice with Him, Bow to him all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with his people and let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him
For He’ll avenge the blood of His Son’s, Be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
Requite those who reject Him, and the Lord will Cleanse his peoples land.

Job 1 "One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.7“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan"

Note that in Deut 32:43 the different layers of divinities.. "Sons of God" at the top up with God in heaven .. also pictured this way in Job..
followed by the nations on a lower tier .. and then Angels lower yet -interestingly ..

John in his Logos terminology also invokes - while not 'sons of God" .. some kind of godhead.

So one can take a whole bunch from scripture. What I think is something different - altogether but similar .. I think God has a few bro's - and broesses around from time to time.. think it is sad we took the feminine out of the Holy Trinity .. not so Holy without her in it.

but answer this .. when you get into heaven .. and after a million years of hair Mary's every day - decide to take a vacation - where will you go. The main rule being that while on vacation you will not remember your past life.

See in heaven .. rather than 200 channels - there are millions .. different worlds to choose from -

The God's like to set up experiments here and there ... us lesser beings can't do that ..
I'm sorry Heyzeus, but I do not subscribe to the hermeneutics that you employ in your interpretation of Scripture. I believe that, in general, the Bible is to be taken literally, but with the allowance of various forms of literary devices, namely, hyperbole, cultural idioms, anthropomorphism, personification, antanaclasis, theophory, poetry, parables, allegory, metaphors, etc... And also, the interchangeability of various expressions, as in Elohim, Theos, Adonai, YHWH, between humans and the divine.
So that, one's exegesis becomes extremely spurious once they enter into the realm of mysticism, the implausible, or the incomprehensible. Especially, when the requisite terminology just does not exist in Scripture, namely: trinity, triune, three-in-one, two-in-one (natures), god-man, incarnate, god the son, god the holy spirit, hypostatic union, ....

So, that also, the question that you posed was too hypothetical, and, to me, fallacious, that there is no viable answer - as you created a false predicate.
 

Heyzeus

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I'm sorry Heyzeus, but I do not subscribe to the hermeneutics that you employ in your interpretation of Scripture. I believe that, in general, the Bible is to be taken literally, but with the allowance of various forms of literary devices, namely, hyperbole, cultural idioms, anthropomorphism, personification, antanaclasis, theophory, poetry, parables, allegory, metaphors, etc... And also, the interchangeability of various expressions, as in Elohim, Theos, Adonai, YHWH, between humans and the divine.
So that, one's exegesis becomes extremely spurious once they enter into the realm of mysticism, the implausible, or the incomprehensible. Especially, when the requisite terminology just does not exist in Scripture, namely: trinity, triune, three-in-one, two-in-one (natures), god-man, incarnate, god the son, god the holy spirit, hypostatic union, ....

So, that also, the question that you posed was too hypothetical, and, to me, fallacious, that there is no viable answer - as you created a false predicate.

What are you blubbering about .. all this yapping .. half the words you don't even know what means - not once addressing the text presented.

What kind of avoidance denial mechanism have I triggered ?

OK ... deep breath -- Focus "Sons of God" - this was not a "literary device" - This was belief in other Gods .. as in something other than "monotheism"

Neither the Israelite's .. nor anyone around them were monotheists in the near East 1300-500BC - and Deut 32:8 .. and 32:43 .. and Job 1 , reflect this system of belief.

This is not just from the Bible - but from History - Archaeology - Biblical Archaeology - and so on.
 

DNB

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What are you blubbering about .. all this yapping .. half the words you don't even know what means - not once addressing the text presented.
What kind of avoidance denial mechanism have I triggered ?
OK ... deep breath -- Focus "Sons of God" - this was not a "literary device" - This was belief in other Gods .. as in something other than "monotheism"
Neither the Israelite's .. nor anyone around them were monotheists in the near East 1300-500BC - and Deut 32:8 .. and 32:43 .. and Job 1 , reflect this system of belief.
This is not just from the Bible - but from History - Archaeology - Biblical Archaeology - and so on.
Are you a dingbat? Don't answer, that was rhetorical. What in the world are you blabbering about, I cited exactly where my contention lies, and yet, you claim that you have no idea what I'm talking about? True, maybe I should've stipulated that I was referring just to the latter have of your post, but again, I alluded exactly to words that you had used. You should've been aware what i was addressing, ....maybe you don't understand half the words that I used? Feel free to ask next time, before you start yapping about something that wasn't even presented, ...yes, the irony?

John in his Logos terminology also invokes - while not 'sons of God" .. some kind of godhead.
How so, divinity is perfect in every single manner. If there were more than one divine being, there would be absolutely nothing to differentiate one from the other, not to mention the utter redundancy of the notion. Were you unaware?

So one can take a whole bunch from scripture. What I think is something different - altogether but similar .. I think God has a few bro's - and broesses around from time to time.. think it is sad we took the feminine out of the Holy Trinity .. not so Holy without her in it.
This is ridiculous, for all the reasons that I gave in my previous post! Did you forget what you wrote?

but answer this .. when you get into heaven .. and after a million years of hair Mary's every day - decide to take a vacation - where will you go. The main rule being that while on vacation you will not remember your past life.
See in heaven .. rather than 200 channels - there are millions .. different worlds to choose from -
The God's like to set up experiments here and there ... us lesser beings can't do that .
This is ridiculous, too hypothetical, silly, and immature, to take seriously!
 
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Heyzeus

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Are you a dingbat? Don't answer, that was rhetorical. What in the world are you blabbering about, I cited exactly where my contention lies, and yet, you claim that you have no idea what I'm talking about? True, maybe I should've stipulated that I was referring just to the latter have of your post, but again, I alluded exactly to words that you had used. You should've been aware what i was addressing, ....maybe you don't understand half the words that I used? Feel free to ask next time, before you start yapping about something that wasn't even presented, ...yes, the irony?

The problem was that you did not relate what you were saying to the comments in my post.

How so, divinity is perfect in every single manner. If there were more than one divine being, there would be absolutely nothing to differentiate one from the other, not to mention the utter redundancy of the notion. Were you unaware?

How do I connect this comment to something ? I said.. "Divinity is perfect" .. OK ... so what ? What does this have to do with "Sons of God" in the OT .. and John's idea's with respect to the divinity of Jesus ? The Author of John does not believe Jesus is "The Father" .. he is divine and connected to the Father .. but is also subordinate to the Father in the Gospel of John.

and now we are at the great schism - so congratulations for inadvertently distinguishing one of the main ones

What am I unaware of ? ? - redundancy of Trinity doctrine ? - absolutely I am - circular as can be - a complete logical fallacy if your claim is true.
 

DNB

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The problem was that you did not relate what you were saying to the comments in my post.
How do I connect this comment to something ? I said.. "Divinity is perfect" .. OK ... so what ? What does this have to do with "Sons of God" in the OT .. and John's idea's with respect to the divinity of Jesus ? The Author of John does not believe Jesus is "The Father" .. he is divine and connected to the Father .. but is also subordinate to the Father in the Gospel of John.

and now we are at the great schism - so congratulations for inadvertently distinguishing one of the main ones

What am I unaware of ? ? - redundancy of Trinity doctrine ? - absolutely I am - circular as can be - a complete logical fallacy if your claim is true.
Ok, I have no idea of what you are espousing?
For, that fact that I directly quoted your comments, then put my rebuttal right underneath, you claim that my attempt to clarify our 'schism', was inadvertent? You see, we are speaking two different languages.

You constantly made allusions to 'godhead' (more than 1 divine being), 'trinity' (3 divine beings), and 'sons of god' (several divine beings), in order to support your hypothesis that many of the nations either worshipped, several gods, the same god, some gods, those gods, these gods, ...I haven't a clue at this point? I attempted to debunk such a postulation by showing, on a fundamental level, how implausible, at least, the notion of several gods actually existing, either simultaneously, or staggered. But also, in an earlier post, I contested your point that the Israelites (Jacob's descendants) worshipped any other God than YHWH, the Father (Elohim, Adonai, Hashem, Kurios, Abba, etc...). For, if they did, they were killed immediately.

Is it possible for you to just, in pointed form, declare your theology, because you seem to be all over the place with your conclusions?

You make this claim:
What does this have to do with "Sons of God" in the OT .. and John's idea's with respect to the divinity of Jesus ? The Author of John does not believe Jesus is "The Father" .. he is divine and connected to the Father .. but is also subordinate to the Father in the Gospel of John.

And then, you sate this?
What am I unaware of ? ? - redundancy of Trinity doctrine ? - absolutely I am - circular as can be - a complete logical fallacy if your claim is true.

Again, what the heck is your actual position on these issues; is Jesus divine, is there a trinity, are there more than one divine beings in the universe, did the Hebrews worship more than 1 divine entity?
I hold to an emphatic and unequivocal NO, to all four propositions.
 

101G

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Addressing the OP

A. on the poll, neither, he's "EVIL". and he's a angel.

B. on the topic itself. "The Divine Son's of God", that is yet to come, 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Heyzeus

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Ok, I have no idea of what you are espousing?
For, that fact that I directly quoted your comments, then put my rebuttal right underneath, you claim that my attempt to clarify our 'schism', was inadvertent? You see, we are speaking two different languages.

You constantly made allusions to 'godhead' (more than 1 divine being), 'trinity' (3 divine beings), and 'sons of god' (several divine beings), in order to support your hypothesis that many of the nations either worshipped, several gods, the same god, some gods, those gods, these gods, ...I haven't a clue at this point? I attempted to debunk such a postulation by showing, on a fundamental level, how implausible, at least, the notion of several gods actually existing, either simultaneously, or staggered. But also, in an earlier post, I contested your point that the Israelites (Jacob's descendants) worshipped any other God than YHWH, the Father (Elohim, Adonai, Hashem, Kurios, Abba, etc...). For, if they did, they were killed immediately.

Is it possible for you to just, in pointed form, declare your theology, because you seem to be all over the place with your conclusions?

You make this claim:
What does this have to do with "Sons of God" in the OT .. and John's idea's with respect to the divinity of Jesus ? The Author of John does not believe Jesus is "The Father" .. he is divine and connected to the Father .. but is also subordinate to the Father in the Gospel of John.

And then, you sate this?
What am I unaware of ? ? - redundancy of Trinity doctrine ? - absolutely I am - circular as can be - a complete logical fallacy if your claim is true.

Again, what the heck is your actual position on these issues; is Jesus divine, is there a trinity, are there more than one divine beings in the universe, did the Hebrews worship more than 1 divine entity?
I hold to an emphatic and unequivocal NO, to all four propositions.

What difference does it make what my personal position is.

The fact of the matter is the author of John did not believe Jesus was "The Father" - nor did any of the early Church.

What part of this fact do you not understand.

The part about the trinity is Logic .. again having nothing to do with my personal perspective- and everything to do with circular logic in claiming that both that Jesus is A) the same substance and B) a different substance - from the Father.

and it is not like this is not recognized by any theologian worth their salt.

So what is it .. is Jesus a separate substance - or the same substance. ?
 

DNB

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What difference does it make what my personal position is.
Because we are trying to understand what the flippin' heck that you are talking about, in order to give a relevant and meaningful response. Get it?

The fact of the matter is the author of John did not believe Jesus was "The Father" - nor did any of the early Church.
Unanimously (all facets of comprehension) agreed, ....but, the controversy does not end here.

The part about the trinity is Logic .. again having nothing to do with my personal perspective- and everything to do with circular logic in claiming that both that Jesus is A) the same substance and B) a different substance - from the Father.
Now you're speaking nonsense again, and sorry, using words incorrectly, to the point of contradicting yourself. Circular reasoning, by any dialectical esteem, is an invalid means to substantiate one's position. eg: we don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God, because it says that it is the Word of God. We have to prove that it's self-proclamation is true. So again, what do you mean by 'circular logic', ...yes, I'm scared to ask!

and it is not like this is not recognized by any theologian worth their salt.
There are scholars on both sides of the argument. And those that are against the trinity, are more sound, reasonable and Biblical, than their opponents.

So what is it .. is Jesus a separate substance - or the same substance.?
For the upteenth time Heyzeus, and 'for crying out loud', there is only one divine being in the entire universe, that is God the Father, not the son, not the Holy Spirit (gift from God to empower the saints), not a divine council, no other elohim, no other gods.
Jesus is 1000% man, and only man, was never God, is never God, and never will be God. Nor will any other entity or being in the universe ever be God, except the singular , undivided, uncompromised, unconfused, God the Holy Father.
 

Enoch111

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To the ancient Israelite's there was a Divine Pantheon - with each town having a more local God that they would worship .. in the case of Israel this was YHWH.
Your poll questions are incomplete and your above statement is BLATANTLY FALSE. How about this within the poll regarding Satan?
"An evil angel who rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven".

The ancient Israelites were taught about the one true and living God from the very beginning. They did not have a "divine pantheon" to chose from. But the same token, they did not remain faithful to the true God - YHWH -- but chose to imitate the heathen nations and went into idolatry more often than not.