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The Doctrine of the Trinity

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Believer, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. Believer

    Believer New Member

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    The King James Version of the Bible, authorized in 1611, formed the strongest evidence for the Doctrine of the Trinity. But now the part, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text. I John 5:7-8 in the New American Standard Bibles reads as follows:"And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." Also, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, you will find:"For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." I just don't understand why this important part has been removed, and I wonder why many ministers and preachers are not aware of this. In actuality, the Trinity is not Biblical. The word Trinity is not even in the Bible, was never taught by Jesus, and was never mentioned by him. There is no basis or proof in the Bible whatsoever for the acceptance of the Trinity. Maybe in Matthew 28:19 it says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." However, this is still not solid proof of the Trinity. If you speak of three persons sitting or eating together, does it mean they form one person? No.The formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., i.e. more than three centuries after Jesus had left. No doubt Roman paganism had influence in this doctrine as well; the triune god, the Sabbath was shifted to Sunday, and December 25th which was the birthday of their sun-god Mithra, was introduced as Jesus' birthday. In regards to Christmas and the rites and rituals that surround it, the Bible clearly predicts and forbids the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5:"Thus says the Lord: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are false. A tree from the forest is cut down, and worked with an axe by the hand of a craftsman. Men deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Be not affraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good."Of course in John 14:11 it says: "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me," implying that God and Jesus are one. Further in John 17:21 however, it says: "...that they (the disciples) may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us..."Thus it becomes clear that God and Jesus are one, but also that the disciples are one in Jesus and God. If Jesus is God because he is in God, why are the disciples then not God, as they all are like Jesus in God? Similarly, if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost form one unit of Trinity, then with the disciples included shouldn't they form a God unit of fifteen? The bottom line is that the whole Doctrine of the Trinity simply does not make any reasonable sense.I think Jesus himself clears things up in John 14:8-9: "Philip said to him, "Lord show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" So finally, Jesus asked Philip how to show the appearance of God to the disciples, which is not possible. You should believe in God by admiring his creation: the sun, the moon, and all creations including Jesus himself who was created by God so miraculously. In John 4:24 Jesus says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth," and in John 5:37 he says, "...His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen..."Thus, how can you see a spirit then? What the people of the time saw was Jesus and not God. Also, Paul adds in his letter to Timothy, "whom no man has ever seen or can see." So what you can never see is God.We are taught that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost, and is also God. We are also taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Of course, we are not allowed to say "Three gods" but "One God".In Matthew 1:18 it reads: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit"But then in Luke 1:26-27 it reads: "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."So in the miraculous birth of Jesus, Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost then? It only makes sense that the Holy Ghost is Gabriel. Thus we come to the conclusion, God is God, the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel, and Jesus is obviously a son of Mary but also a Prophet who brought the Word of God. In other words, God may have spoken through Jesus, as Jesus was a manifestation of the Word of God on earth. It is true that the Doctrine of the Trinity in not Biblical nor a teaching of Jesus, but instead a concept created by man long after the resurrection of Jesus. It is also true that many people are confused by this. My question to all believers is why make things so hard for ourselves?God BlessBeliever
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The Holy Spirit = Gabriel? Nonsense. That's a conclusion that is a far as a stretch as you can make with those two verses. One clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as being at the conception and another obviously refers to the messenger - of which angels are messengers of God - delivering the message of the conception of Jesus the Christ. To say that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit is blasphemy my friend. Are you familiar with the Hebrew? Gabriel means literally "man of God" - clearly the Holy Spirit - oftentimes referred to as the Ruach Adonai amongst other titles is a spirit. Don't get the two confused, that gets you into a whole lot of trouble very quickly.
     
  3. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    ANGELS are never called spirits, an angel is never called a spirit. angel is allied with evangel and primarily means a messenger; occurs 188 times in the Greek New Testament and is translated ‘angel’ 181 times and ‘messenger’ seven times.Angels have been called “men”. (Genesis 18:2, two men and YHVH, the two men called angels in 19:1, 15; and Luke 24:4, called angels in John 20:12.). In Daniel 9:21, Gabriel is not only called a man, but his name means "man of God". Satan himself is referred to as a man in Isaiah 14:16 (ish).2 Cor 11:14-1514 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Lets look at the Greek word for transformed:3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo);from 3326 and a derivative of 4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation)The very word 'comforter' (paraklētos) is used of Christ, and also of the Holy Spirit. what is this word? ~G3875παράκλητοςparaklētospar-ak'-lay-tosAn intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter."COMFORTER"=paraklētos, 'WHICH IS THE HOLY SPIRIT' ~Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."ADVOCATE"=paraklētos, 'Jesus Christ' ~1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. This same Holy Spirit is called God in Acts 5 ~3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost...Act 5:4 ... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. God has, in fact, revealed Himself in three persons.In the Greek, (Joh 14 above) the use of the word 'he' is emphatic and rare, as the subject 'the Holy Spirit' is supplied. To then identify the Holy Spirit as a 'He' is extra ordinary, pushing the point beyond question. It is emphatic. The fact that the inspired writer promotes a person in the person of the Holy Spirit is not accidental, but purposeful and for instruction as it pertains to the revelation contained in these verses. That the HS is God is straightforward. The word is used of Christ, as one having been 'sent', and used of the HS, as one to be 'sent', are called God, one who sent a manifestation of Himself, that we may know something of Him. God has so stooped down, even using the simplest language of men for His message about Himself, even taking on the form of a servant.Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
     
  4. Believer

    Believer New Member

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    The note to “angel” in Matthew 1:20 points to Hebrew 1:14 n.: “As to their nature, angels are spirits.” Do you not consider the angel Gabriel to be Holy as it is from God? Gabriel was an angel, not a man, thus “man of God” cannot be applied to the angel Gabriel. Also, why restrict the Holy Spirit to Jesus and not consider other people divine who are also filled with the Holy Spirit? In Acts 11:24 it says: “For he (Barnabas) was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a large company was added to the Lord. In Acts 5:32: “And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” See further in Acts 6:5, II Peter 1:21; II Timothy 1:14; I Corinthians 2:16; Luke 1:41. Even John the Baptist is said to be filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb: “But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zachariah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb” (Luke 1:13-15). Why is Holy Spirit mentioned in Matthew and not in Luke and vice versa? Again, looking back at history, you will see that deviations from the pure doctrines of Jesus and all prophets before him started with Paul, who never met Jesus. Paul was the first to claim the Godhead and the concept of Jesus as the son. Yet, the disciples and the early Christian generations were Unitarians. They resisted the efforts of Paul and his followers to change both the faith and Law of Moses and Jesus, and, later, many of them were tortured for holding to their faith. The Doctrine of the Trinity, which was the original discussion at hand, was imposed for the first time, as an official creed of the Roman Empire, by Emperor Theodosius in the year 381 A.D. The motive was mainly political; to save the Roman Empire by putting an end to the split between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarians, a split that persisted even after the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. adopted the Pauline doctrines deifying Jesus as son of God. Trinity, subsequently endorsed by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D., attracted those who found in it a compromise between their original pagan beliefs and Christianity. Trinity, as I have mentioned, was an invention of Athanasius of Alexandria in the 4th century after Jesus' departure. Furthermore, it is a coinage of the Pauline doctrine with pagan beliefs of the ancient world. For example, in Egypt: Horus, Isis and Osiris, in India: Brahma, Siva and Vishnu, as well as the Greek myths of people who are sons of the “Holy Ghost” (Apollo). Other influences of the pagan beliefs I have already mentioned in my last post. But the concepts of Trinity and the Holy Ghost or Spirit were, in fact, a pagan invention that neither Jesus nor the early Christians ever accepted or advocated. Now going back to the scriptures, take a look at Luke 1:35: “And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” The Bible never claims that the Holy Spirit is God Almighty Himself. It is important to know that the Trinity is only an interpretation and a conclusion. There is not a single text in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit is GOD Almighty, nor does the word, trinity, even exist in the Bible. Nonsense? Blasphemy? Is this what you call it, and is this the way to make dialogue with a brother in religion? If you want to speak about blasphemy, then you better take a closer look at history, a whole history after Jesus that has defined the Christian movement, and be careful not to blaspheme yourself.May God Guide us all
     
  5. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Hebrew 1:14 n.: “As to their nature, angels are spirits.”
    Quite right, and the flow of the argument is that angels have the spirit of ministry, not that angels are spirits, just that the spirit of an angel is to minister, God makes His, while Satan makes his. As far as Paul goes, quite right again, Paul could never have been one of the twelve, where the prerequisite was to be in the presence of the Lord and His instruction. Paul did not receive the Word of Truth by man or man's doctrine, but by the risen Lord. And that is how the 12 really learned as well, see Luke 24 and Acts 1.
    Paul was the first to claim the Godhead and the concept of Jesus as the son.
    Peter never spake of the Son, nor John or Matt. and Luke in the Gospels, which is, correct me while I am wrong, long before Paul? And what about Philip in Acts 8:37? ? Is that right? I thought even the Lord from heaven spake of Himself in that way. Then of course there was Daniel, but we must give mention to Isaiah too. Hmmm.Of course, Christ was never positioned to be the head of Israel, to Israel He is the great King Priest. Christ is head to the church which is His body. Just because the Lord chose to reveal something more of His plan after all Israel had heard and dismissed the idea of receiving her kingdom does not mean that God cannot chose to reveal that He had not yet revealed all of His plan. Indeed, we learn that God has a plan for the habitation of what can only be described as 'the super-heavenlies', to which "Far above all" huperanō pas, discribes and attempts to give meaning to en tois epouraniois "in heavenly places" vv Eph. 1:21 & 3 respectively.
     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Gabriel was an angel, not a man, thus “man of God” cannot be applied to the angel Gabriel.
    Genesis 18:1-3And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: The word men is 'enowsh and it clearly means mortal man. These that Abram saw are undoubtedly the angels of the Lord, yet they are clearly and explicitly identified as men. While we're at it, though, why not look at Gabriel himself! Daniel 9:21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. Always consult the Scriptures. If the answer is not right there in the same verse, odds are it can be found elsewhere. Gabriel is also addressed as a man in Daniel 8. Do you know what angel means? It means messenger. You can look all this up if you choose not to believe me. However, you will find nowhere that angels are described as beings with wings or anything of the sorts. As far as a "pagan" example - please provide an example where there was something such as the trinity. I don't mean multiple gods or multiple head gods - I mean specifically the trinity in another culture. I'd love to know more about this as a pagan invention because the history I've studied has shown nothing like it.
     
  7. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.Do you need any other proof?How can you blaspheme an angel? and it not be forgiven?Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. In the third verse, Peter says that Ananias lied to the Holy Ghost, in the 4th verse Peter says that he lied to God.However, i do agree that the trinity doctrine is not Biblical - the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same person is absurd. They are 3 different personalities making up the government of God, or what the Bible calls "the Godhead".Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.I understand the pagan beliefs of trinity. The father, mother, son diety. Founded by Satan through Nimrod on the plains of Shinar. Just because Satan counterfeited the Godhead, does not give us reason to reject it, Satan also counterfeited the virgin birth. As the ancient pagan believed, Nimrod (or baal or Osiris or whoever you call him) died, he went to the sun (this is why baal is called the sungod in the Bible) then he sent forth his spirit, and his wife Semiramis (or Ashteroth or Isis or Easter or whatever you call her) conceived a child miraculously by Nimrod, and she had a child (Tammuz). This is why the trinity is a catholic doctrine, and this is why they exalt mary, because they need a female diety to fill in for dianna.Since Satan counterfeited the virgin birth (and counterfeits almost everything from the Bible) does that mean we throw that out too? Some translators along the way just slipped it in there? No,Without Jesus being God, he can not possibly redeem man, and you are still in your sins. Without the Holy Spirit being God, how can you possibly be born again, and how can you possibly rely upon it to allow you to resist temptation when Satan (who is a greater created being then Gabriel) if you have the weaker on your side? it doesn't make sense.Anyway what are your thoughts?God bless!!
     
  8. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    Also, off the tope of my head, the Cherubs were winged creatures and are reffered to as angels in the Bible, and i believe Ezekiel 1 talks about winged creatures in around God's throne.
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Kendal, you won't be receiving a response from this one. He decided he'd lie about his religion so I don't think he has much of a problem lying to us about anything else. Articles (or as I prefer junk) he posted linked him with several Islamic websites.
     
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