The Equality of Jesus to The Father

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Firstly by “Equality” it is meant, that Jesus Christ and The Father, are “identical” in their Power, Authority, Rank, Status, Importance, Nature. In the Godhead, as Almighty God, neither Person is in any way, “better”, “more important or prominent”, or “greater”, than the other Person. Just because in some cases the Father is mentioned first, does not make Him the more “prominent”, in the Godhead. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul says, “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen”. Here Jesus Christ is mentioned first, and the Father is second, and then the Holy Spirit. In Ephesians 4:4-6, we read: “one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all”. The Holy Spirit is first, then Jesus, and then the Father. Thereby showing that each Person in the Holy Trinity is completely EQUAL.

For those who argue for the Primary status of God the Father in the Godhead, because He is called “The Father”, and therefore “Higher” than Jesus Christ, as “The Son”. 1 Corinthians 1:9 shows this to be wrong. Here we read:

“God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”

Here, in the Greek it says, “δι' ου” (through Whom), where the preposition “δι'”, is used for the “agent”. So the Father is here as “subordinate” to Jesus Christ, Who is the One “Calling” us into fellowship. It does not say “ὑπό ου”, BY Whom, which would be the case, if it was the Father Who did the Calling. As it reads, the Father is acting on behalf of Jesus Christ.

This would be impossible if Jesus Christ is not Himself YHWH, and completely EQUAL to God the Father!

Also, in this verse, as in many places in the New Testament, we have “ὁ θεὸς” (The God [the Father]); and “τοῦ υἱοῦ” (The Son). Clearly Two DISTINCT Persons.

In John Chapter 5 we read of the lame man who was healed by Jesus, on the Sabbath Day. When the Jews challenged the Lord on His actions, He simply replied, “But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”” (verse 17). These words enraged the Jews, as we read in the next verse, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God”. Jesus here calls The Father, “πατέρα ἴδιον”, His OWN Father, in a very personal and exclusive way, which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus claiming for Himself Absolute Deity. As their response shows, “making Himself equal with God”. The Greek is very interesting, “ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ”. Firstly we have the use of the definite article, “τῷ θεῷ”, literally “The God”, not “god”. Then we have the use of the adjective, “ἴσον”, (equal), which is used for “the same in quality, strength, comparable with, equal with no advantage to either side”. Jesus does not rebuke these Jews for saying what they did, which He would have done, if they were incorrect. It is very clear that Jesus Christ IS EQUAL with the Father.

In the next passage from Philippians 2, we read of Jesus Christ from all eternity, and into His Incarnation.

“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (5-8)

The words “though He was”, is in the Greek, “ὑπάρχων”, which means “to be already in existence”, then simply “being, existing”, as the present participle. In the “form of God”, is being in the “very nature”, as the Greek “μορφη”, here means. At the time of the KJV translation in 1611, this Greek word was already used in English as , “The essential determinant principle of a thing”. Which is as the NIV Bible has it, “in very nature”. “Equality” in this passage in Philippians, is much like that in John. Here it is the Greek, “ισα”, which is the neuter plural, meaning, “on equal terms, without advantage to either side”

It was this “equality” with the Father, that He “emptied Himself”, when He took on the “very nature (μορφη)” of a “Servant”, and became the God-Man.

In John 17:5, Jesus says:

“And now Glorify Me Thou, Father, with Thyself, with the Glory which I had before the world was, with Thee” (literal)

In this verse Jesus is saying to the Father, that, from all eternity, He “had”, “ειχον”, in the imperfect, of continued possession, the same GLORY as that which God the Father has as His possession! Jesus says, “παρα σεαυτω” (with Thyself) “παρα σοι”, where the use of the preposition “παρα”, which means, “besides, near, in the company of”, thereby showing that The Father and Jesus Christ are DISTINCT Persons. This Glory which Jesus enjoyed with The Father from all eternity, is what He “gave up”, during His Incarnation. In Luke 24:26, Jesus says, “Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?””.

In Isaiah 42:8 it says, “I am the LORD, that is My name; And My Glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images”

YHWH says that He would not give His own Glory (כָּבוֹד, Honor, Glory) to any other. Yet, Jesus Christ tells YHWH the Father, that He EQUALLY possessed His GLORY from all eternity! IF, as some suppose that Jesus Christ is a mere created being, or eternally “subordinate” to the Father in the Godhead, then what we read here in the Holy Bible, cannot be correct!

Listen to Jesus own words in John 5:23

“that all may Honor the Son just as they Honor the Father. He who does not Honor the Son does not Honor the Father who sent Him”

Here Jesus, as the God-Man, during His Incarnation on earth, when he was “subordinate” to the Father, Who He Himself said, “is Greater than I” (John 14:28), says very clearly, that ALL humans “Honor the Son”, “just as”, (καθὼς) “according as”, “they Honor the Father”. And, they who do not “Honor” Jesus Christ, do not either “Honor” the Father, Who sent Him. Some argue, that because Jesus Christ was “sent” by the Father, He is therefore not “equal” to the Father. This verse shows this thinking to be very much wrong! To demand EQUAL HONOR to God the Father, is only possible if Jesus Christ Himself IS YHWH, exactly as the Father is YHWH. No created being, or subordinate Person, can ever make such a statement, without it being the highest form of blasphemy! Also in this verse, we have Jesus was being “sent” by The Father (τὸν πατέρα), showing their “distinction” as Persons, which some deny.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,549
12,965
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Equality of Jesus to The Father
OP^

Jesus and the Father Equal?

*Inanutshell - there is ONLY ONE God, who is:
Eternal, Holy, Unseen, Unheard,
Creator and Maker. Period.
* That which comes forth out from God, IS God, and which comes forth out from God, IT, remains IN God.

* Names, Titles, Descriptions;
at any given time,
Reveal (the ONE) Gods:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

* Names, Titles, Descriptions;
at any given time,
Reveal (the ONE) mans;
Character, Intent, Will, Order, and Way.

The LIKENESS, of man and God, IS;
BOTH, HAVE:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

The DIFFERENCE, of man and God, IS;
* Gods ...
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way...
God NEVER CHANGES.
* Mans ...
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way...
man CHANGES REPEATEDLY.

Gods OFFERING to mankind IS SIMPLE.
Gods OFFERING to mankind IS:
God SHALL "MAKE"; ANY "WILLING" man;
A mirror Image of Gods:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

* MIRROR IMAGE; IS a REFLECTION.
Which is to say; No man SHALL BECOME GOD...
* Yet a WILLING man, SHALL BECOME a Reflection OF Gods "Likeness & Image".

God EQUAL with Himself?
Absolutely.
A man EQUAL with God?
No.
A man EQUAL with himself?
No.
A man OFFERED to be MADE EQUAL with himself, (in Gods Likeness & Image)?
Yes.




 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The Equality of Jesus to The Father
OP^

Jesus and the Father Equal?

*Inanutshell - there is ONLY ONE God, who is:
Eternal, Holy, Unseen, Unheard,
Creator and Maker. Period.
* That which comes forth out from God, IS God, and which comes forth out from God, IT, remains IN God.

* Names, Titles, Descriptions;
at any given time,
Reveal (the ONE) Gods:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

* Names, Titles, Descriptions;
at any given time,
Reveal (the ONE) mans;
Character, Intent, Will, Order, and Way.

The LIKENESS, of man and God, IS;
BOTH, HAVE:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

The DIFFERENCE, of man and God, IS;
* Gods ...
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way...
God NEVER CHANGES.
* Mans ...
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way...
man CHANGES REPEATEDLY.

Gods OFFERING to mankind IS SIMPLE.
Gods OFFERING to mankind IS:
God SHALL "MAKE"; ANY "WILLING" man;
A mirror Image of Gods:
Character, Intent, Will, Order and Way.

* MIRROR IMAGE; IS a REFLECTION.
Which is to say; No man SHALL BECOME GOD...
* Yet a WILLING man, SHALL BECOME a Reflection OF Gods "Likeness & Image".

God EQUAL with Himself?
Absolutely.
A man EQUAL with God?
No.
A man EQUAL with himself?
No.
A man OFFERED to be MADE EQUAL with himself, (in Gods Likeness & Image)?
Yes.




none of what you say addresses what the Bible actually says, as in the OP!
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,549
12,965
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
none of what you say addresses what the Bible actually says, as in the OP!

Sure it does.

The Equality of Jesus to The Father
OP

God NEVER CHANGES.

Regardless of WHAT name, title, description God is Called...
God NEVER CHANGES.
Jesus NEVER CHANGES.
Christ NEVER CHANGES.
ONE SAME NEVER CHANGING GOD.
Precisely, EQUAL with Himself, as I said.

Mal 3:
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not...

Heb 3:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Doesn't matter by what "GODS Creations" are CALLED...they Constantly Change.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Sure it does.

The Equality of Jesus to The Father
OP

God NEVER CHANGES.

Regardless of WHAT name, title, description God is Called...
God NEVER CHANGES.
Jesus NEVER CHANGES.
Christ NEVER CHANGES.
ONE SAME NEVER CHANGING GOD.
Precisely, EQUAL with Himself, as I said.

Mal 3:
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not...

Heb 3:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Doesn't matter by what "GODS Creations" are CALLED...they Constantly Change.

do you believe that Jesus Christ and the Father are Two DISTINCT Persons?
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,549
12,965
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
do you believe that Jesus Christ and the Father are Two DISTINCT Persons?

In a mans CARNAL MINDS understanding?
Knowledge purposed for a beginner...Yes.

In a mans SPIRITUAL spirits understanding?
Understanding of the converted...No

So, my answer is no.
A person IS a created HU-man KIND of creature...regardless of WHAT ONE person/Human is called...that ONE person is the same ONE person.

God IS an Eternal Spirit, regardless of WHAT God is called...He IS ONE Same God.

The Distinction...
of Names, Titles, Descriptions...Does NOT MAKE ONE GOD, "multiple gods".
(LORD, Lord, God, Almighty, Holy, Spirit, Father, Son, I Am, Yahweh, Jesus, Christ, Messiah, Truth, Life, Way, Power, Light, Savior, Redeemer, King, Eternal, Quickener, Creator, Maker, Seed, Wisdom, Good, Shepherd, Word, Leader, Most High....
on and on all applicable to ONE Heavenly God.

The Distinction...
Of Names, Titles, Descriptions...Does NOT MAKE ONE man, "multiple men".
(Sir, madam, father, son, mother, daughter, sister, brother, cook, farmer, employee, employer, president, honey, boss, teacher, servant, worker, giver, receiver, student, James, Jimmy, Bubba, Jennifer, Jenny, priest, pastor, stripper, addict, drunk, sober, neighbor, jerk, compassionate, lover, hater, beautiful, ugly, wealthy, poor, and on and on....applicability to ONE Earthly person.