The everlasting gospel, part 2: The fallen

[michaelvpardo]

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6
Now, this verse could be understood in two different ways.
1 the "dead" could refer to the spiritually dead or:
2 the "dead" could refer to the physically dead
Let's take a look at the passage and try to discern if one or both are true.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6
Now, this verse could be understood in two different ways.
1 the "dead" could refer to the spiritually dead or:
2 the "dead" could refer to the physically dead
Let's take a look at the passage and try to discern if one or both are true.

Well it is not referring to spiritually dead- for they would not live unto to God.

While there is no definitive verse that absolutely defines this, the well accepted tradition of this being Jesus going down to Abrahams bosom to tell the OT saved that the blood had been shed and tat there deliverance had come. We know as it says in Ephesians that when Jesus ascended back to heaven He took the souls out of Abrahams Bosom with HIm and closed "Paradise?Abrahams bosom. For as Paul said that now when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well it is not referring to spiritually dead- for they would not live unto to God.

While there is no definitive verse that absolutely defines this, the well accepted tradition of this being Jesus going down to Abrahams bosom to tell the OT saved that the blood had been shed and tat there deliverance had come. We know as it says in Ephesians that when Jesus ascended back to heaven He took the souls out of Abrahams Bosom with HIm and closed "Paradise?Abrahams bosom. For as Paul said that now when one is absent from the body they are present with the Lord.

I appreciate this, but I wouldn't be dogmatic in your first statement. At the death and resurrection of our Lord there were many who never heard the gospel, many who never knew of the covenants, and many that observed the moral codes of their various false religions. It's an absurdity to think that none were righteous according to the standards of men and that all would be cast into hell for eternity, even if they lived under the doctrines of demons. That would make God seem as monstrous as those who have already judged the world in their own minds. God is just and will repay all according to their deeds, but righteousness, salvation, wisdom and honor all come through Christ.
The nations often expressed the morality of their creeds in unrighteous ways, but frequently had moral codes very similar to biblical ones. Learning history can be tedious, but even scripture comments on the long suffering of God toward the nations. Consider Jonah and his mission to Nineveh. He barely spoke a word to them other than their impending judgment, and God brought them all to repentance and spared the city. Did they become Christians or Jews? Did God declare them righteous? It's an evil eye that judges the world, but God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him might be saved. Even Abraham was born Abram and a pagan by birth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I appreciate this, but I wouldn't be dogmatic in your first statement. At the death and resurrection of our Lord there were many who never heard the gospel, many who never knew of the covenants, and many that observed the moral codes of their various false religions. It's an absurdity to think that none were righteous according to the standards of men and that all would be cast into hell for eternity, even if they lived under the doctrines of demons. That would make God seem as monstrous as those who have already judged the world in their own minds. God is just and will repay all according to their deeds, but righteousness, salvation, wisdom and honor all come through Christ.
The nations often expressed the morality of their creeds in unrighteous ways, but frequently had moral codes very similar to biblical ones. Learning history can be tedious, but even scripture comments on the long suffering of God toward the nations. Consider Jonah and his mission to Nineveh. He barely spoke a word to them other than their impending judgment, and God brought them all to repentance and spared the city. Did they become Christians or Jews? Did God declare them righteous? It's an evil eye that judges the world, but God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him might be saved. Even Abraham was born Abram and a pagan by birth.

Well I will only give you what God inspired Paul to write about OT gentiles:Eph. 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well I will only give you what God inspired Paul to write about OT gentiles:Eph. 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Thank you for your contribution, brother. It's a good, fair, and righteous thing not to go beyond what is written in scripture, and the point of this study is to exegete scripture to find an understanding. It's not uncommon, especially among biblical scholars doing word by word exegesis, to be unable to see the forest for the trees. While looking at minutiae, they don't always see the big picture. I've been near sighted physically from my youth, but have always been pretty good at seeing the "big picture" and have what could be called a gestaltic view of reality. This has been very helpful to my understanding since I received the Lord by faith through prayer. Sometimes like everyone else, I only see bits and pieces, but our minds naturally fill in the blanks according to our worldview. This is actually how human vision works, scanning images with the fovea of the eye, and the brain filling in those things which belong but are missed in the scanning. Consequently if we see something that shouldn't be there according to our normal perception, our brains may misinterpret the "data " or simply ignore it.
We have long standing doctrines and commonly place a good bit of trust in the writings of church fathers and saints through the age, but why should we assume that they all had "the mind of Christ " as Paul put it and that full stature that he associated with it. Clearly scripture speaks to some understanding being withheld until the end of the age, but scholars have consistently tried to exegete all scripture, presumably under the justification that the "end times" began with the resurrection of our Lord.
It was scholarly misinterpretation of scripture that closed the book on prophesy and other sign gifts. You can only arrive at such assertions by blatantly ignoring the word of God, and ignoring Paul's exhortation to the church.
We clearly have a full Revelation of the eternal and only begotten Son of God, and in scripture we have all we need to know to learn how to live godly lives in Christ Jesus. That doesn't mean that our understanding of God's redemption in the person of His Son is complete or there wouldn't be verses that are difficult to reconcile to the gospel and our knowledge of the Lord. There wouldn't be passages sealed for the latter days. If you can accept that the return of the Lord with His saints is imminent, then its entirely reasonable that He would open our understanding to the signs of the times and those things kept secret for the sake of the gospel delivered once and for all time to the saints.
Paul asked this question, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"
A consensus in this study of at least two or three witnesses, empowered by His Spirit, will actually be a judgment upon Angels, upon the hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. These are serious world changing and heaven changing days. Once more will God shake the heavens and the Earth, and by Christ and by His church in Christ. If these things trouble or disturb your faith or conscience, then it would be best if you didn't participate in these things. We stand as judges and not as advocates, but I for one make appeal for the lost, and these things apply to angels, powers, authorities, principalities in the heavenly places and not directly to men. If we arrive at no spiritual consensus then our time is still not wasted if it clarifies doctrine that isn't properly or completely understood.
Are you with me here? Do you comprehend what I'm stating?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thank you for your contribution, brother. It's a good, fair, and righteous thing not to go beyond what is written in scripture, and the point of this study is to exegete scripture to find an understanding. It's not uncommon, especially among biblical scholars doing word by word exegesis, to be unable to see the forest for the trees. While looking at minutiae, they don't always see the big picture. I've been near sighted physically from my youth, but have always been pretty good at seeing the "big picture" and have what could be called a gestaltic view of reality. This has been very helpful to my understanding since I received the Lord by faith through prayer. Sometimes like everyone else, I only see bits and pieces, but our minds naturally fill in the blanks according to our worldview. This is actually how human vision works, scanning images with the fovea of the eye, and the brain filling in those things which belong but are missed in the scanning. Consequently if we see something that shouldn't be there according to our normal perception, our brains may misinterpret the "data " or simply ignore it.
We have long standing doctrines and commonly place a good bit of trust in the writings of church fathers and saints through the age, but why should we assume that they all had "the mind of Christ " as Paul put it and that full stature that he associated with it. Clearly scripture speaks to some understanding being withheld until the end of the age, but scholars have consistently tried to exegete all scripture, presumably under the justification that the "end times" began with the resurrection of our Lord.
It was scholarly misinterpretation of scripture that closed the book on prophesy and other sign gifts. You can only arrive at such assertions by blatantly ignoring the word of God, and ignoring Paul's exhortation to the church.
We clearly have a full Revelation of the eternal and only begotten Son of God, and in scripture we have all we need to know to learn how to live godly lives in Christ Jesus. That doesn't mean that our understanding of God's redemption in the person of His Son is complete or there wouldn't be verses that are difficult to reconcile to the gospel and our knowledge of the Lord. There wouldn't be passages sealed for the latter days. If you can accept that the return of the Lord with His saints is imminent, then its entirely reasonable that He would open our understanding to the signs of the times and those things kept secret for the sake of the gospel delivered once and for all time to the saints.
Paul asked this question, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"
A consensus in this study of at least two or three witnesses, empowered by His Spirit, will actually be a judgment upon Angels, upon the hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. These are serious world changing and heaven changing days. Once more will God shake the heavens and the Earth, and by Christ and by His church in Christ. If these things trouble or disturb your faith or conscience, then it would be best if you didn't participate in these things. We stand as judges and not as advocates, but I for one make appeal for the lost, and these things apply to angels, powers, authorities, principalities in the heavenly places and not directly to men. If we arrive at no spiritual consensus then our time is still not wasted if it clarifies doctrine that isn't properly or completely understood.
Are you with me here? Do you comprehend what I'm stating?

All this philosophical jargon is nice and wonderful and awful fancy but means nothing when it comes to knowing what SCripture says.

YOu talk of revelation of end times being opened. Well whose is better? We have hundreds vyoing for revealing what was "hidden" and all using allegorical reinterpretations or mystical meanings to worlds. All claim their witness is from God like you. So why should we accept your opinions as sscriptural understanding other than what is clearly written.

I see the forest and I see the trees, as well as the gras, flowers and shrubs in the forest. It is not a difficult thing.

It is also to just simply lay blame to believers of the past and sday I am bettter, but proving it is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your fear is showing brother, and perhaps a little envy.
I invite you to greater works, even to the council of saints to make judgment upon the host of heaven and you can't even type or edit your own posts. That is so incredibly sad.

Well you arev ery lousy at mind reading and thinking how I feel! But thanks for trying!

 

[michaelvpardo]

charlie rich feel like going home song with URL - Bing video

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sad, very, very sad. Have a nice life, at least what's left of it.

Wow your arrogance is amazing! If yu think you are gettingthis from God- yes it is sad, very very sad! YOu are filled with slef importance. when the Lord carves you down a notch or two, you shall not be so judgmental against the brethren!

I have an awesome life, and at near 67 I know there is not that much left to it. The Lord has blessed me with walking with HIm for 47 years now!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I found a fly in the house yesterday and I've known who Baalzebub is since I was a child. Smashed over a hundred of the filthy things one afternoon at Baba's house with her mighty fly swatter. You are no longer welcome on the council my friend and as far as I'm concerned you are excommunicado. Praise the Lord for the ignore button!

Well I am content in letting the Lord judge- He is far more gracious than you appear based on your hate filled writing. And as far as excommunicating me goes- you do not have that authority. You are notr an elder over me. but thanks for pretending.

 

[Curtis]

It’s a good idea to put any scripture, especially a proof text scripture, in context, by reading at least the chapter before and after the one the proof text is in.

1 Peter 4 starts out with the word SINCE, which is an obvious reference to words that went before that chapter.

Peter had just said this in chapter 3:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

So the verse in question refers back to the above verses:

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

These scriptures refer to the fact that the righteous dead in the OT could not ascend to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for their sins, so they were held in a place in hades called Abraham’s bosom, (referred to in the account of the rich man in torments, who looked across the great chasm separating the damned from the chamber Abraham and Lazarus were in):

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

When Jesus died, scripture says He descended into the lowest part of the earth and preached to those spirits in captivity - the OT righteous dead held captive in the heart of the earth- and when He rose he “led captivity captive” meaning He emptied out Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise (which is now in heaven) and now souls of the righteous dead go straight to heaven:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


This is why many saints arose after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the city:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those spirits in prison were the OT righteous dead kept in the heart of the earth, who were the dead that Jesus preached to, in the OP verse.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Curtis]

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6
Now, this verse could be understood in two different ways.
1 the "dead" could refer to the spiritually dead or:
2 the "dead" could refer to the physically dead
Let's take a look at the passage and try to discern if one or both are true.

It’s a good idea to put any scripture, especially a proof text scripture, in context, by reading at least the chapter before and after the one the proof text is in.

1 Peter 4 starts out with the word SINCE, which is an obvious reference to words that went before that chapter.

Peter had just said this in chapter 3:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

So the verse in question refers back to the above verses:

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

These scriptures refer to the fact that the righteous dead in the OT could not ascend to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for their sins, so they were held in a place in hades called Abraham’s bosom, (referred to in the account of the rich man in torments, who looked across the great chasm separating the damned from the chamber Abraham and Lazarus were in):

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

When Jesus died, scripture says He descended into the lowest part of the earth and preached to those spirits in captivity - the OT righteous dead held captive in the heart of the earth- and when He rose he “led captivity captive” meaning He emptied out Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise (which is now in heaven) and now souls of the righteous dead go straight to heaven:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


This is why many saints arose after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the city:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those spirits in prison were the OT righteous dead kept in the heart of the earth, who were the dead that Jesus preached to, in the OP verse.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[michaelvpardo]

It’s a good idea to put any scripture, especially a proof text scripture, in context, by reading at least the chapter before and after the one the proof text is in.

1 Peter 4 starts out with the word SINCE, which is an obvious reference to words that went before that chapter.

Peter had just said this in chapter 3:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

So the verse in question refers back to the above verses:

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

These scriptures refer to the fact that the righteous dead in the OT could not ascend to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for their sins, so they were held in a place in hades called Abraham’s bosom, (referred to in the account of the rich man in torments, who looked across the great chasm separating the damned from the chamber Abraham and Lazarus were in):

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

When Jesus died, scripture says He descended into the lowest part of the earth and preached to those spirits in captivity - the OT righteous dead held captive in the heart of the earth- and when He rose he “led captivity captive” meaning He emptied out Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise (which is now in heaven) and now souls of the righteous dead go straight to heaven:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


This is why many saints arose after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the city:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those spirits in prison were the OT righteous dead kept in the heart of the earth, who were the dead that Jesus preached to, in the OP verse.

Shalom Aleichem

I agree with this, but how do we know that none of the dead in sheol got to hear the gospel at the same time?

 

[Curtis]

I agree with this, but how do we know that none of the dead in sheol got to hear the gospel at the same time?

Why would Jesus preach the gospel to the damned? There’s no second chance once you die...

That would be redundant, IMO.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Why would Jesus preach the gospel to the damned? There’s no second chance once you die...

That would be redundant, IMO.

How do we know that those in sheol are damned if they were entirely outside the covenant of Law? These are difficult verses and I suspect it may take some time to get to all the answers, but let's look at Peter 3:19 in context ( and the language seems obtuse to me.)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20
Every time I read through 1 Peter, I breeze by this passage for the most part and ask myself "what?"

Verse 20 describes the ones preached to in verse 19 and it says of those souls that they were formerly disobedient while the Lord was long suffering toward them while Noah was building the ark. All flesh was condemned in the flood except Noah, his family, and the animals brought on board.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness:
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly 2 Peter 2:4-6
Noah lived for 600 years before the flood and while we don't know when he began preaching righteousness, it seems like he didn't have a single convert except possibly his daughters in law. In context, 2 Peter 2:4-6 is about judgment and of the ancient world but as examples to us and regarding false teachers in the congregation. The passage seems to go all over the place and while it wouldn't hurt to discuss the fate of false teachers, we're concerned with that ancient world which ignored Noah before the flood.
Noah preached righteousness to those people killed by the flood, but then in 1 Peter we have christ Jesus preaching to those same people as far as I can see. They were condemned through the preaching of Noah, so what was the point of Jesus preaching to them?
The passage says that Jesus was put to death, yet made alive by the Holy Spirit. So isn't this passage exactly about the disobedient getting a second chance for those who already died for their sins, judged in the flesh but made alive by His Spirit? They had no opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation, nor did they have the scriptures, the law and the prophets, that they might recognize Jesus in them and believe God. For that matter the passage in 2 Peter that I quoted says that the fallen Angels are reserved in chains for judgment and also gives these examples of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the ancient world, destroyed as examples of judgment, but in these passages it doesn't say that they are ultimately condemned. We're told that Jesus preached to the disobedient before the flood. We're also told that righteous Lot suffered the presence of those wicked people in Sodom and we can only assume that God used him as a standard of righteousness against those cities.
The angels were condemned for leaving their domain, but how Is this transgression worse than that of Adam? Isn't disobedience sin according to knowledge of the commandment?
Consider for a moment that Paul teaches us as Christians to identify with Christ in His death with Baptism and also exhorts us to put to death the deeds of the flesh. We can only do this by His Spirit and in effect we're supposed to be walking dead men with living spirits. If we've died with Christ, we'll live with Him by His Spirit and can't be harmed by the 2nd death. Those that haven't received the gospel are the opposite of us, walking live people who are spiritually dead and how will they be judged? As far as I can see everyone not a recipient of grace, will be judged by law, either the law of the covenants, or that observable law Paul talks about in Romans: 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them Romans 2 :14-15
Jesus, who is the judge of the living and of the dead, went further and made the standard of judgment His words and His words establish mercy for mercy, grace for grace, judgment for judgment, with each person giving an account for their words, rather than their deeds.
Paul's statement is exceedingly broad in regard to the gentiles in order to show that they all have culpability for their actions and demonstrate that the law is written on their hearts, yet are unable to obey it. He doesn't address the various moral codes and laws of the nations, because the people of the nations weren't capable of keeping their own moral codes and laws, which were enforced by kings by the power of the sword.
These are deep waters to tread without creating "another" gospel, but the everlasting gospel, the gospel for the millennium is another gospel, but not a new gospel.
You can comment or object now, but it occurred to me that we should really start from the grace of God expressed in Christ Jesus at the end of the book of the Revelation and work backwards from the knowledge of Christ's grace as the Apostles did to avoid the pitfalls of "new revelation " that is just error.

 

[Curtis]

How do we know that those in sheol are damned if they were entirely outside the covenant of Law? These are difficult verses and I suspect it may take some time to get to all the answers, but let's look at Peter 3:19 in context ( and the language seems obtuse to me.)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20
Every time I read through 1 Peter, I breeze by this passage for the most part and ask myself "what?"

Verse 20 describes the ones preached to in verse 19 and it says of those souls that they were formerly disobedient while the Lord was long suffering toward them while Noah was building the ark. All flesh was condemned in the flood except Noah, his family, and the animals brought on board.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness:
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly 2 Peter 2:4-6
Noah lived for 600 years before the flood and while we don't know when he began preaching righteousness, it seems like he didn't have a single convert except possibly his daughters in law. In context, 2 Peter 2:4-6 is about judgment and of the ancient world but as examples to us and regarding false teachers in the congregation. The passage seems to go all over the place and while it wouldn't hurt to discuss the fate of false teachers, we're concerned with that ancient world which ignored Noah before the flood.
Noah preached righteousness to those people killed by the flood, but then in 1 Peter we have christ Jesus preaching to those same people as far as I can see. They were condemned through the preaching of Noah, so what was the point of Jesus preaching to them?
The passage says that Jesus was put to death, yet made alive by the Holy Spirit. So isn't this passage exactly about the disobedient getting a second chance for those who already died for their sins, judged in the flesh but made alive by His Spirit? They had no opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation, nor did they have the scriptures, the law and the prophets, that they might recognize Jesus in them and believe God. For that matter the passage in 2 Peter that I quoted says that the fallen Angels are reserved in chains for judgment and also gives these examples of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the ancient world, destroyed as examples of judgment, but in these passages it doesn't say that they are ultimately condemned. We're told that Jesus preached to the disobedient before the flood. We're also told that righteous Lot suffered the presence of those wicked people in Sodom and we can only assume that God used him as a standard of righteousness against those cities.
The angels were condemned for leaving their domain, but how Is this transgression worse than that of Adam? Isn't disobedience sin according to knowledge of the commandment?
Consider for a moment that Paul teaches us as Christians to identify with Christ in His death with Baptism and also exhorts us to put to death the deeds of the flesh. We can only do this by His Spirit and in effect we're supposed to be walking dead men with living spirits. If we've died with Christ, we'll live with Him by His Spirit and can't be harmed by the 2nd death. Those that haven't received the gospel are the opposite of us, walking live people who are spiritually dead and how will they be judged? As far as I can see everyone not a recipient of grace, will be judged by law, either the law of the covenants, or that observable law Paul talks about in Romans: 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them Romans 2 :14-15
Jesus, who is the judge of the living and of the dead, went further and made the standard of judgment His words and His words establish mercy for mercy, grace for grace, judgment for judgment, with each person giving an account for their words, rather than their deeds.
Paul's statement is exceedingly broad in regard to the gentiles in order to show that they all have culpability for their actions and demonstrate that the law is written on their hearts, yet are unable to obey it. He doesn't address the various moral codes and laws of the nations, because the people of the nations weren't capable of keeping their own moral codes and laws, which were enforced by kings by the power of the sword.
These are deep waters to tread without creating "another" gospel, but the everlasting gospel, the gospel for the millennium is another gospel, but not a new gospel.
You can comment or object now, but it occurred to me that we should really start from the grace of God expressed in Christ Jesus at the end of the book of the Revelation and work backwards from the knowledge of Christ's grace as the Apostles did to avoid the pitfalls of "new revelation " that is just error.

The answer is most likely that the law of Moses wasn’t given until 430 years after Abraham, but there was still some kind of law from God that they had, and violated.

For instance you quoted this: Paul wrote that there are those who will be judged by how well they kept Gods law written on their hearts called the conscience, which will either accuse, or excuse them on judgment day.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

If they are in the torments side of hades, they have been condemned, IMO, and it would be redundant and even cruel to preach a gospel they can’t be saved by.

Shalom Aleichem.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Just wanted to report that when looking for news this morning, I came upon Creflo Dollar teaching about the renewing of our minds with sound doctrine. Hallelujah. I recant my witness upon Him and praise the Lord for his growth in Christ Jesus. Amen.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The answer is most likely that the law of Moses wasn’t given until 430 years after Abraham, but there was still some kind of law from God that they had, and violated.

For instance you quoted this: Paul wrote that there are those who will be judged by how well they kept Gods law written on their hearts called the conscience, which will either accuse, or excuse them on judgment day.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

If they are in the torments side of hades, they have been condemned, IMO, and it would be redundant and even cruel to preach a gospel they can’t be saved by.

Shalom Aleichem.

Exactly, my dear brother, but the everlasting gospel is not the gospel of salvation, but the gospel of life. His commandment is life and He sets the prisoners free.
We'll go to the last chapter of the Revelation next, but I have errands to run. God bless you friend and God bless the study to the glory of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

 

[marks]

It's not uncommon, especially among biblical scholars doing word by word exegesis, to be unable to see the forest for the trees. While looking at minutiae, they don't always see the big picture.

It's not uncommon for people of all stripes to not see the forest for the trees. It turns out that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think those who say such things aren't planning on being fair.

I'm expecting the next thing will be, You don't see the forest, but I do. Is that how you are thinking?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It was scholarly misinterpretation of scripture that closed the book on prophesy and other sign gifts. You can only arrive at such assertions by blatantly ignoring the word of God, and ignoring Paul's exhortation to the church.

You've just overgeneralize me in this one.

So by your thinking, I blatantly ignore God's word, and Paul's exhortation.

There ya' go!

Much love!