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The false doctrines of the Futurist and Preterist interpretation.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Hobie, Oct 12, 2019.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Here is from Wikipedia where I am a author and it is straightforward:

    'One of the most influential aspects of the early Protestant historicist paradigm was the assertion that scriptural identifiers of the Antichrist where matched only by the institution of the Papacy. Particular significance and concern were the Papal claims of authority over both the Church, through Apostolic succession, and the State, through the Divine right of Kings. When the Papacy aspires to exercise authority beyond its religious realm into civil affairs, on account of the Papal claim to be the Vicar of Christ, then the institution was fulfilling the more perilous biblical indicators of the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication. The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism were derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church

    Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley, as well as most Protestants of the 16th–18th centuries, felt that the Early Church had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume Magdeburg Centuries to discredit the Catholic Church and lead other Christians to recognize the Pope as the Antichrist. So, rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the Papacy. '

    Now in order to counter this view that the papacy was the Antichrist power it the church turned to the Jesuits who were summoned to counter the reformers' teachings, and here two Jesuit scholars stand out in particular. They are Ribera and Alcasar, and they developed the Futurist and Preterist systems of prophetic interpretation.

    Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era. In that short space antichrist (a single individual, according to Ribera) would rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols of antichrist denoted an apostate religious system was countered, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from the present to the far distant future.

    Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar also published a scholarly work on Revelation, to refute the Protestant Reformation on the Antichrist power. Alcazar's thesis, the opposite of Ribera's, was that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past, that is, by the fifth and sixth centuries A.D., the early centuries of Christianity. He asserted that this prophetic book simply described a two-fold war by the church-its victory over the Jewish synagogue on the one hand (chaps. 1-11) and Roman paganism on the other (chaps. 12-19). Chapters 21, 22 Alcazar applied to the Roman Catholic Church as the New Jerusalem, glorious and triumphant. His writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

    Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become the standard view of liberal Protestantism.

    The ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. Futurism, is currently followed in some form by most conservative Protestant bodies. Thus both spectrum of the Protestant denominations has picked up this counter reformation view set about to change the views of the papacy as the Antichrist power that was from the Reformers.

    The false doctrine as you can see, basically are to put aside the Reformers view of the Antichrist. Preterist interpretation puts all prophecy pertaining to the Antichrist into the past so it is long gone, and the Futurist interpretation puts them into the future so the papacy could claim it was not this power.
     
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  2. Stan B

    Stan B Well-Known Member

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    A lot of words to describe what Daniel consistently referred to as last days, end times, etc. could be accepted simply with a couple Biblical references. What preterists believe or why they believe it is of no more interest to me than all the other deluded cults out there.
     
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  3. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Preterism is for those who:
    A/ Are terrified of what they read in the prophesies, so their solution is to biff it all into the past.
    B/ Can't be bothered to try and understand the Prophesies.
    C/ Fondly imagine they will carry on with their cozy lifestyle, until Jesus Returns.

    Good luck to them, I prefer to have some idea of what God has planned for His people in the end times.
     
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  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Our Lord Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven doctrines of men. If the believer leaves God's Holy Writ in favor of man's philosophical tirades, it will lead to confusion, and seminary labels like Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, etc., do exactly that. And just to show how confused those seminary traditions of men are, as long as you keep to what is written in God's Word, they may at different times categorize you as being of all of those labels.
     
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  5. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Just my experience!

    But with those 'labels', or doctrines, there is some truth in them all, its the usual trick of the Deceiver; mix lies with truth.
    Just as well for us, the Bible keeps us on track, provided we read it correctly and avoid translators bias, church doctrinal insertions and grasp the really important issues, like Salvation.

    I want to comment on the critical issue in the correct understanding of end times prophecy. It is; 'who is the true Israel of God'.
    All thru the Old testament, we are given the doings and the history of the people group called Israel.
    Then; in the New Testament Jesus comes and is rejected by the remnant of Israel, so He rejects them. Matthew 21:43
    After that, the Apostles made it perfectly clear that we Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16

    Therefore; the OT prophesies of Blessings and of the holy Land are OUR heritage and they pertain to us. Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14
    WE will be the people that God always wanted in His holy Land, who ancient Israel failed to be. Isaiah 35:1-10
    and Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells about our
    gathering there. Ezekiel 38:8-12 describes our living there in peace, while the Lord saves us from the attackers.
    We are there when the Anti-Christ leader of the rest of the world comes and makes a 7 year peace treaty with us. Proved 3 1/2 years later when the AC breaks it; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.

    There is much more detail to this, but knowing this basic Plan, would help many to get through the difficult time to come, as the Lord deals to the enemies on His terrible Day of fiery wrath.
    Be ready to stand strong in your faith and trust in the Lord for your protection. Joel 3:32, Acts 2:21
     
  6. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    But scripture shows us prophecy so we have to understand what its meaning is, so its hard.
     
  7. hermeneutics

    hermeneutics Active Member

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    I have studied Preterism a little because my son had asked for information about it. That was around 20 years ago. I told him, after study, that most of prophecy has been fulfilled.

    Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

    Do you believe there are people of the devil still living among us?

    Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    The children of the wicked one will be burned.

    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    First fruits are those that have passed away and went on to the LORD, do we know that believers will never die.
    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    To know that we are in the end time, is to know who the tares are?
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The issue here is deceptive. Are we to conclude that an interpretation of Bible prophecy is false simply because a Jesuit arrived at that interpretation? That is the easy way out -- just blame the Jesuits. A knee-jerk reaction rather than a search for the truth.

    The questions which all Christians must address (a) from Scripture, (b) from human history, and (c) from current events, is whether the bulk of the prophecies (Rev 6-22) found in Revelation have already been fulfilled, or whether they are indeed to be fulfilled in the future.

    1. FIRST FIVE SEALS
    When we compare the Olivet Discourse with the opening of the seven seals of Revelation, we find that the first five seals were already opened since the first century. What was prophesied below by Christ has been happening since the first century:

    FALSE CHRISTS
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    FAMINES, PESTILENCE, EARTHQUAKES
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    FALSE PROPHETS
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    APOSTASY IN CHRISTENDOM
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    THE GOSPEL PREACHED WORLDWIDE
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    2. SIXTH AND SEVENTH SEALS
    These are yet future events, and only a delusional person will assert that the cataclysmic cosmic events of the 6th seal have already occurred. And only a fool will claim that the Antichrist has already had worldwide dominion and control for 3 1/2 years, and applied the Mark of the Beast to human beings (regardless of the false teaching of the SDA that Sunday worship = taking the Mark of the Beast). So you can call this Futurism or you can call this serious and sober Bible interpretation, but the fact remains that the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals have never occurred.
     
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  9. Stan B

    Stan B Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with the preterist concept of the first 5 seals. Like when was the famine that destroyed 25% of the earth's population? While we have seen samples of the 5 seals, I don't believe we have seen anything yet compared to what is coming!!

    I tend to suspect that the first seal will be the amalgamation of all the Islamic countries surrounding Israel, and following the re-establishment of the Ottoman Empire. Then will Islam try to subdue the other countries of the world, resulting in state of constant war like the world has never seen before! WWIII? Just a guess on my part.

    I believe the 6th seal will be God's final last-chance warning before the rapture which takes place after the 6th seal and before the 7th.
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is 33% of the population within the 7th seal (Rev 8:7), not the first five seals. And it does not speak of famine either.
     
  11. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Well they would pretty much have to, to try and justify their rebellion wouldnt they...

    They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.


    Pax!
     
  12. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The first five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension to heaven.
    This is proved by the Fifth Seal; all the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

    Also the world HAS experienced horrible wars, terrible famines, depopulating plagues and disastrous economic events. If you cared to look at the facts, you should see how all these have killed huge numbers of people. Any worse and mankind would have been wiped out.
     
  13. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Dont know bout all of that, but this is the one we should be looking at,

    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Because that is where we are at.
     
  14. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The unconverted tares, however, are coming from within, which is what is shocking...

    'The Great Apostasy is a concept within Christianity, identifiable at least from the time of Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation, to describe a perception that the early apostolic Church has fallen away from the original faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles. Protestants used the term to describe the perceived fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church, because they claim it changed the doctrines of the early church and allowed traditional Greco-Roman culture (i.e.Greco-Roman mysteries, deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus, pagan festivals and Mithraic sun worship and idol worship) into the church on its own perception of authority.[1] Because it made these changes using claims of tradition and not from scripture, the Church -- in the opinion of those adhering to this concept -- has fallen into apostasy.[2][3] A major thread of this perception is the suggestion that, to attract and convert people to Christianity, the church in Rome incorporated pagan beliefs and practices within the Christian religion, mostly Graeco-Roman rituals, mysteries, and festivals.[4] For example, Easter has been described as a pagan substitute for the Jewish Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.[5][6]

    The term is derived from the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, in which the Apostle Paul informs the Christians of Thessalonica that a great apostasy must occur before the return of Christ, when "the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction" (chapter 2:1-12).'

    That is why the tares of the man of sin have to find a way to interpreted this chapter as referring to a future falling-away, at the end of times.
     
  15. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Which effectively calls Jesus a false prophet for saying the gates of hell would not prevail against it....

    Which is of course ridiculous, making the great falling away of the reformation the likely candidate for the fulfillment of that prophecy....

    as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.


    Pax!
     
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    And why is the Protestant reformation not a contradiction to the gates of hell prevailing?
     
  17. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Umm.. Because the Church that Jesus established through His apostles still stands?
    Many have called for its demise, and yet she has filled the whole world as prophesied...
    And now the devil will have his hour as she follows in the footsteps of her Master's passion... But after crucifixtion... Glory!

    Pax!
     
  18. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The thing is even from early on they saw the Antichrist power coming and understood who it was:

    "Many of the early church fathers understood the restraining power that must be taken out of the way before Antichrist be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8), as the Roman civil power (which fell in A.D. 476), and that the Antichrist would rise from its ruins and take up the Roman power. Shortly thereafter the Roman Papacy usurped to itself both universal jurisdiction over the Church of Christ and the vestiges of the Roman civil empire.

    Linked are 10 very important primary source quotes from:

    Justin Martyr †165
    Irenaeus of Lyons †202
    Tertullian †225
    Hippolytus †235
    Cyprian of Carthage †258
    Lactantius Firminianous †325
    Cyril of Jerusalem †386
    John Chrysostom †407
    Jerome †420
    Augustine of Hippo †430"...Historic Quotes on the Papacy being the Antichrist


    Here is from Jerome who was at Rome and saw the corruption first hand:
    "St. Jerome (c. 340-420) Doctor of the Church
    Commentary on Daniel, Chapter 7, Verse 8:

    "... We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..."

    Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm

    Letter CXXIII
    TO AGERUCHIA (409)

    16. But what am I doing? Whilst I talk about the cargo, the vessel itself founders. He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near. Yes, Antichrist is near whom the Lord Jesus Christ "shall consume with the spirit of his mouth." "Woe unto them," he cries, "that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." ...

    17. ... For thirty years the barbarians burst the barrier of the Danube and fought in the heart of the Roman Empire. Long use dried our tears. For all but a few old people had been born either in captivity or during a blockade, and consequently they did not miss a liberty which they had never known. Yet who will hereafter credit the fact or what histories will seriously discuss it, that Rome has to fight within her own borders not for glory but for bare life; ...

    Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 123 (Jerome)
     
  19. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The Reformers and even those before them saw clearly who the Antichrist was. Whats happening to the churches today is they are becoming blind and forgetful of the truth they once saw clearly. Here is a list I came across of Pre-Reformation and Reformers Interpretations:

    Date Name Reference Interpretation

    c. 1310 Dante Alighieri
    Rev. 17 Harlot=Roman Church

    c. 1331 Michael of Cesena
    Rev. 17 Harlot/Antichrist=Roman Church, Pope

    c. 1345 Johannes de Rupescissa
    Antichrist, Rev. 17 Babylon, Rev. 17 Harlot=Pope/Roman church


    c. 1350 Francesco Petrarch
    Rev. 17 Harlot=Papal Court

    c. 1367 John Milicz
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Man of Sin=Papacy


    c. 1379 John Wycliffe
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn. Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot=Pope/Papacy


    c. 1388 Matthias of Janow
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Man of Sin. Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon=Hierarchy/Papacy


    c. 1390 John Purvey
    Antichrist, Rev. 13 666, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy


    c. 1393 Walter Brute
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin=Papacy/Bishop of Rome/Papacy

    c. 1412 John Huss
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy


    c. 1497 Girolamo Savonarola
    Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy

    Reformation Era Interpretations:

    1522 Martin Luther
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1543 Philipp Melanchthon
    Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1545 Andreas Osiander
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1554 Nicolaus von Amsdorf
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1558 Johann Funck
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1560 Virgil Solis
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1570 Georg Nigrinus
    Antichrist= Pope

    1572 David Chytraeus
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin= Papacy

    1530 Johann Oecolampadius
    Antichrist, Little Horn=Papacy

    1557 Heinrich Bullinger
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1550 William Tyndale
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1545 George Joys
    Antichrist, Little Horn=Papacy

    1554 Nicholas Ridley
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Rev. 17 Harlot. Rev. 17 Babylon
    Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

    1553 Hugh Latimer
    Antichrist=Papacy

    1582 Thomas Cranmer
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    1550 John Bale
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
    Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

    1562 John Jewel
    Antichrist, Abomination of Desolation, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
    Rev. 17 Beast=Papacy

    1587 John Foxe
    Antichrist, Man of Sin=Bishop of Rome

    1563 Anglican Formulas
    Antichrist=Papacy

    1547 John Knox
    Antichrist, Little Horn=Church of Rome/Papacy

    1593 John Napier
    Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 13 1st Beast, Rev. 17 Harlot, Rev. 17 Babylon
    Rev. 17 Beast =Pope/Papacy/Latin Empire

    1614 Thomas Brightman
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Pope/Papacy

    1618 David Pareus
    Antichrist, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Beast=Pope/Papacy

    Sir Isaac Newton
    Antichrist, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Rev. 17 Harlot
    Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy

    John Wesley
    Man of Sin. Rev. 17 Harlot. Rev. 17 Babylon=Papacy also Antichrist

    And they ask the question, "In view of the foregoing Reformation interpretations identifying Papacy as the Antichrist and Man of Sin, why do so many Evangelical Protestants today believe the Man of Sin and Antichrist are future individuals?"
     
  20. hermeneutics

    hermeneutics Active Member

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    Stan, that's not nice to call someone a part of a cult simply because you don't agree with them! In short time, i will give you scripture that proves what it was.
    For, example
    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    Do you understand? You don't, unless you have read Flavius Josephus' Wars of the Jews.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
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