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Featured The false premise of Universalism.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Many have picked up the idea that all will be saved or continue in eternal life even in the fires of hell. But only the saints will have eternal life, all others will not have eternal life in any form. Now the wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God cannot create character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a robot, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom.

    So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

    The next idea that is problem in Universalism, is that God forgives everyone, so won’t all be saved? The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation. For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

    Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness and remained haters of God, and full of iniquity. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, they would not find God’s infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.
     
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    That is not correct. Only the saints PRESENTLY have the eternal kind of life. But there are three other destinies among they who will be saved. There are the saints who live in the holy city....and there are the saved of the nations (the righteous)..and there are they who wander in outer darkness for ever.

    One should realize that the saints are called to rule over the nations....they who God has accepted (will be justified) as righteous. And one should also realize that they who are shamed must live to bear an eternal reproach.

    The rest is just human traditions and bad interpretations. The totalitarian two dimensional simplistic view that says only I and they like me I deem worthy of salvation. Fortunately God is more merciful than religious people. :)

    VERY few believers are saints. And this is not just a Catholic thing. The way is far too narrow for most people. But if you can remain humble and do what is right...you can still be accepted by God.
     
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  3. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Paul called believers saints, even sinful believers. I think you are mistaken about the meaning of "saint".
     
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  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    You don't have to be a saint, as the catholic church defines it, in order to be saved. All you have to do is believe in Jesus.
     
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  5. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And wh
    And where is any of this found in Scripture?
     
  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    If you read carefully you will see the distinction between saints and faithful brethren....between they who are spiritual and they who are not there yet. Nobody begins the Christian walk as mature brethren....and not everyone is equally gifted or has as much faith.
     
  7. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Do you a whole bible study course? Use google....or give it a few years of study. To help you...look up...and the nations of them who are saved.
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    If Universalism were true there would be no need for the Gospel. But the Lord Jesus Christ made it perfectly clear that there is no such thing as Universalism. Which would mean that its origin is from Satan.

    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:26)

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(Mark 16:16)

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

    All those who have been saved by grace are the saints of God, sanctified by the gift of the Holy Spirit. These are also the one who have received the gift of eternal life.
     
  9. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I dont show one reference to saints in the NT, but then that is in NLT. I'm a bit amazed at that...
     
  10. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    still struggle so much with this, @Episkopos. How does outer darkness remain for ever when He said there is nothing hidden that will not be brought to light, and nothing covered that will not be uncovered? And also Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

    Psalm 139:11-12 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. [12] Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
     
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  11. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 6:10 “For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.”
    Romans 8:27 “And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

    Colossians 1:11-13 “May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.”
    First Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours.”
    Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”

    If you’re born again, then you’re already a saint even while yet a sinner (1st John 1:8, 10)

     
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  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Nothing that is presently hidden...the tense here is important. Judgment day doesn't last forever. On that day everything will be exposed.

    And God always does things with both a good AND a bad outcome. And that includes they who are under grace. Under the law there is just life and death. But under grace there is either honour or dishonour. The difference is in what we do with what God gives to us.


    Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
     
  13. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I struggle a lot with it too. In fact, I was struggling with it just yesterday morning. In Rev, there is reference to 4 different people.

    Rev 22:11
    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    These are to have 4 different outcomes, but only 3 of them are eternal outcomes. The unjust will be annihilated, I think, and death is also done away with. Then 3 eternal destinies remain, after death is done away with - filthy, righteous, holy.
     
  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    still not seeing it. Not saying you are wrong. It is no secret probably that I think God will save all. Realize so many do not and even laugh at such an idea. But to be honest, it is where most of my thoughts concerning who the Father is come from. Sometimes I wonder if that makes me erecting a false God, so again, I’m listening. I’m not attacking and saying it is of a certainty...but only questions I have. You mentioned of the same lump but He said to purge the old leaven and create a new lump...purged by Christ who is able to purge His floor and gather His wheat. All the time get, those who believe God will save all ...has a soft God. A God who is always loving with no wrath. I see His wrath against sin and do not think He is soft; there are some hard things which are there: where Paul said put him outside of the body for the destruction of the flesh, let the devil have him, that He may be saved. Or the sin unto death...in saying do not pray for it. You said both good and bad outcomes? Yes. Yet He said overcome bad outcomes with good outcomes. Overcome the curses with the blessings?
     
  15. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    VIJ, the way it came to be seated in my mind finally, yesterday morning, was that the filthy are those who mess around with righteousness and holiness, doing eternal harm to men's destinies. And, in fact, would (I think) be the ones who are surprised when questioned at the wedding feast about their improper clothing and the ones who are surprised and say, but we cast out demons in Your name! They are surprised. They deceived others AND became deceived.

    So their destiny is eternal shame in outer darkness. It would have been better to have the mercy of complete annihilation in the lake of fire ( it will fare better for Sodom on that day than it will for you.) It would have been better to have never been born.
     
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  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Makes me consider the different grounds where seed is sown. There is only one “good ground” which brings forth fruit, and increases. This good ground of the kingdom of God fails not. The others (Without)are scorched or withered or consumed or lack moisture and root...yet in reading the word the movement is toward the good ground and strength restored by the fruits of the Spirit which are for the healing of the nations.

    “Without” maybe helps that which is without is destroyed ...but is that end when that which is within is renewed? Revelation 22:11-12 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    That is where my question always stems from. All the focus usually onto God rewarding evil works with their destruction...which yes. but He also said they already have their reward. what about the reward and recompense of the blessing and mercy and grace and peace sown of the fruit of the spirit of righteousness which are by Christ. That is my question....when all works of evil are destroyed and consumed and remembered no more becoming stubble. What about those Things sown where He says He does remember and will recompense and will repay according to the works? Are they not for the remembrance of all things set before Him in Christ. what is Honor if not that which does not speak evil of the Father but instead good. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
     
  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: [22] For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.
     
  18. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    In not following you there, VIJ, sorry. I don't know what the question is.
     
  19. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I think of this verse in a spiritual manner. You helped your enemy, and it got his attention, because if your head's on fire its not something you won't notice! You saw he was poor, wretched, hungry and thirsty. You saw he was an orphan without a father. You showed him Christ by your sharing with him what he lacked. You didn't look at him as an enemy (your enemy is not flesh and blood) but as a poor, fatherless orphan kicking around in his own blood and you gave him food and water. You will be rewarded for this work because it was an eternal work that will remain.
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    This, while being true, still does not introduce a distinction between "faithful" and "saint" such as you teach.

    You proclaim "saint" to be a rarified form of believer, someone who will rule over other believers, and yet . . .

    Romans is written to the "saints", and in Romans, Paul begs them to offer themselves as living sacrifices, and to not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of their minds, this is all the born again. We're all the same in Christ, except in levels of faith and maturity.

    I realize that's not this thread, though there are more examples. You know these, I think. I want to make sure everyone else does too.

    Much love!
     
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