The Father saved me, in Christ

[APAK]

The Father’s word and grace saved me

The basis of this discussion and Bible Study is John 6:36 – 6:58

There are other verses for this subject although I chose this portion of scripture because it captures more of the essence of how one is saved and what it means to be ‘in Christ,' which really means to be and being baptized 'in Christ.' It apparently seems to be a mystery or an issue of confusion to many folks.

This portion of scripture also illustrates that the Father had everything to do with my transformation into Christ’ spirit as I now eat and drink him or his spirit, moment to moment. We are intertwined as one spirit.

Yes, Jesus is the object and the way of salvation although if the Father did not provide his own (W)word and grace to us, to activate the power of the cross by Jesus’ death and resurrection, and to send Christ’s spirit to us, it would count for nothing.

Please take extra attention to the underlined words in each verse. They track my discussion

(Joh 6:36) But I say to you: That you have seen me, and still you do not believe.
(Joh 6:37) All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will in no way reject.
(Joh 6:38) For I came down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39) And this is the will of Him that sent me, that of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father: That every one that sees the Son and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:44) No one can come to me, except the Father that sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day.
(Joh 6:45) It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught by God. Everyone therefore who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
(Joh 6:46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, save he that is from God, he has seen the Father.
(Joh 6:47) Truly, truly, I say to you: He that believes has eternal life.
(Joh 6:48) I am the bread of life.
(Joh 6:49) Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
(Joh 6:50) This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die.
(Joh 6:51) I am the living bread which came down out of Heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever. Yes! The bread which I will give is my flesh – given for the life of the world.
(Joh 6:52) The Jews therefore argued with each other, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
(Joh 6:53) Jesus replied to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
(Joh 6:54) He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:55) For my flesh is the true food, and my blood is the true drink.
(Joh 6:56) He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.
(Joh 6:57) As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he that eats me, he also shall live because of me.
(Joh 6:58) This is the bread which came down out of Heaven. Not as the fathers ate and died; he that eats this bread shall live forever.

In John 6:36 Jesus is saying that no one can truly believe in him, the Son of God, even if they are standing in front of him. If this is the case, then how can someone believe in him after his death by reading the scripture without God’s dominant influence? Can a person’s free-will make one believe and make it happen? Not!

So, Jesus completes his thought in the next verse (37) and says HIS FATHER ensures one believes in him as he gives them to him. Our free-will has zero effect.

John 6:38-39 says that Jesus was born of/from/out of heaven by his Father to do his Father’s will. He even did not use his own will to do anything! And thus, Jesus does not make people believe in him. It is all the Father’s doing, his own will and not our will. The carnal will of any person has nothing to do their salvation.

It is all in God’s domain and by his grace to choose to save a person. He saves and then gives the gift of faith to perform righteous works. This si all possible because of Christ’s spirit living in that person.

John 6:40 then sums up Jesus’ train of thought: So, anyone who saw/sees Jesus, or since his death believes by hearing the gospel or by written word, knows that it was the will of the Father that led that person to believe in Christ. Again, carnal free-will has nothing to do with it and NOT even Jesus (his Spirit).

Verse 45: God will use his word (‘speak’ to ‘teach’ and persuade) on people that shall come to Christ, in their hearts and minds. He will use his Word (his own inner thoughts or his written word) to prepare and open their minds and hearts to him, then to his Son; to save them as one of his children.

Verses 47-58 speaks of Jesus’ spirit is literally in us and we in his spirit, as true believers. We have consumed Christ because of the Father’s will to implant or deliver his spirit to us - his entire spirit in totality. We consume it and it consumes us. We as believers eat and drink him as our heart feeds on him every moment– it is his spirit that bathes or is baptizing/covering us constantly. We are as one spirit with Christ, as we have been transformed into a new, holy, and righteous spirit person destined for eternal life.

Please add your comments to this discussion as always...

Blessings to all,

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

It is all in God’s domain and by his grace to choose to save a person. He saves and then gives the gift of faith to perform righteous works. This is all possible because of Christ’s spirit living in that person.

While your thoughts are commendable, what you have said here appears to be the reversal of the process of salvation. So this is what we find in the Bible:

1. Were God to choose to save anyone, He would save all (1 Tim 2:3-6)
2. Were God to give the "gift" of faith to anyone before salvation, He would give it to all (2 Pet 3:9). But the Spirit does give the gift of faith to some believers as a spiritual gift.
3. Were God to give the Holy Spirit to anyone before they repent and believe, He would violate His own Gospel (Acts 2:38)

What we see in the 6th chapter of John (if taken as one unit) is:
1. The Father sent the Son into the world to save the world, by the offering of Himself (His flesh and blood).
2. However, only those who believe on Him receive the gift of eternal life. This is also what Christ means spiritually by partaking of His flesh and blood.
3. The ones who believe are the ones given by the Father to the Son.
4. If all would believe, all would receive eternal life, and be given to the Son.
5. However, those who do not believe do not receive eternal life, therefore they are not given by the Father to the Son.

Let me know if this is also what you gather from this chapter.

 

[bbyrd009]

"I can now boldly testify of myself, and what the heck we can all commend ourselves to each other while we're at it"

 

[Dave L]

While your thoughts are commendable, what you have said here appears to be the reversal of the process of salvation. So this is what we find in the Bible:

1. Were God to choose to save anyone, He would save all (1 Tim 2:3-6)
2. Were God to give the "gift" of faith to anyone before salvation, He would give it to all (2 Pet 3:9). But the Spirit does give the gift of faith to some believers as a spiritual gift.
3. Were God to give the Holy Spirit to anyone before they repent and believe, He would violate His own Gospel (Acts 2:38)

What we see in the 6th chapter of John (if taken as one unit) is:
1. The Father sent the Son into the world to save the world, by the offering of Himself (His flesh and blood).
2. However, only those who believe on Him receive the gift of eternal life. This is also what Christ means spiritually by partaking of His flesh and blood.
3. The ones who believe are the ones given by the Father to the Son.
4. If all would believe, all would receive eternal life, and be given to the Son.
5. However, those who do not believe do not receive eternal life, therefore they are not given by the Father to the Son.

Let me know if this is also what you gather from this chapter.

You make man his own savior, APAK recognizes God as the savior.

 

[APAK]

While your thoughts are commendable, what you have said here appears to be the reversal of the process of salvation. So this is what we find in the Bible:

1. Were God to choose to save anyone, He would save all (1 Tim 2:3-6)
2. Were God to give the "gift" of faith to anyone before salvation, He would give it to all (2 Pet 3:9). But the Spirit does give the gift of faith to some believers as a spiritual gift.
3. Were God to give the Holy Spirit to anyone before they repent and believe, He would violate His own Gospel (Acts 2:38)

What we see in the 6th chapter of John (if taken as one unit) is:
1. The Father sent the Son into the world to save the world, by the offering of Himself (His flesh and blood).
2. However, only those who believe on Him receive the gift of eternal life. This is also what Christ means spiritually by partaking of His flesh and blood.
3. The ones who believe are the ones given by the Father to the Son.
4. If all would believe, all would receive eternal life, and be given to the Son.
5. However, those who do not believe do not receive eternal life, therefore they are not given by the Father to the Son.

Let me know if this is also what you gather from this chapter.

Enoch: You have again added in your own thoughts INTO scripture or ADDED IN words that are not there in scripture to support some preconceived concept you are cherishing. Why don't you just read scripture for what it says IN CONTEXT and also not by adding in verses to confuse or cloud the subject. If I went through all your scripture you just posed it would not be this subject at all.

(1Ti 2:3) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
(1Ti 2:4) who would wish all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
(1Ti 2:6) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony made at the due time.


For example in 1 Tim 2:3-6, especially verse 4 you are outright lying, or somehow you are oblivious to this fact. Listen to what you have just said: "Were God to choose to save anyone, He would save all" This is NOT what the scripture says at all. It says that God WANTS/WISHES all to be saved.

Did you add in your own meaning here to say that the Father was saying he 'willed' or drew all to salvation because he said he 'wants' or 'wishes?' Why did you add and twist the word of God again? The reason why scripture is written that way is because God does not find some hearts suitable for his purpose, so the Greek word for want/or wish is used here not to will or willed. I'm sure you can find that scripture where the Father has a purpose and plan in mind for all those he chooses.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

@Enoch111

I guess I will comment of the rest of your distorted view of scripture. I was not going to….

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should came to repentance.


Again, this verse in 2 Peter 3:9 says ‘wishing’ not willed. You have added your own meaning here again as before.

So, you are trying to poke holes by now twisting my words and reversing my statement by using Act 2:38 to support. How dare you! Let me spell it out again in plainer language for you.

When the Father FIRST chooses and saves someone he then gives the gift of faith for repentance and sustainment and then we receive the gift of his spirit, the spirit of Christ, within us, to perform righteous works. This is what I said, now in an expanded form. Verse 38 picks up at the repentance portion only.

(Act 2:38) And Peter said to them: Every one of you should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:39) For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to him.

And now I will ask you, why did you not look at Acts 2:39 to show context. I’ll tell you why, because you would then have an awkward time throwing it out as it followed my OP. Verse 39 states “..as many as the Lord our God shall call to him.” Now does that sound like the Father will save all? I do not think so.

The rest of your respond does not justify an answer as you place yourself ahead of the word of God and preach another gospel not in scripture. Just look at what you wrote. Is it really scriptural!?

If you want to continue in embarrassing yourself then that is up to you Enoch.


Bless you,


APAK

 

[Helen]

While your thoughts are commendable, what you have said here appears to be the reversal of the process of salvation.

Ouch!
That takes it right out of a work of the Spirit , into right into mans legalistic mind.

I have hardly met two people who "process of salvation" happened the same way! I didn't know that God had a rule book and an specific order on 'how you be saved'. Me thinks if He made one...He then threw it put of the window!
I wonder what process the thief on the cross followed?

 

[Enoch111]

That takes it right out of a work of the Spirit , into right into mans legalistic mind.

It's amazing how Christians immediately jump to legalism instead of trying to understand what is involved. You should know better than that. There is indeed a process of salvation.

1. The Gospel must be preached (or read)
2. Faith in Christ must be generated by the Gospel
3. The Holy Spirit must convict the sinner to repent and believe
4. Believing and repentance must result in the forgiveness of sins
5. Believing must result in receiving the gift of eternal life
6. Believing must result in receiving the gift/baptism of the Holy Spirit
7. God must also justify by grace the one who believes on Christ
8. The Holy Spirit must regenerate the one who believes
9. The Holy Spirit must place the believer in the Body of Christ
10. Obedience to Christ must follow firstly in baptism, then all else, including good works.

Granted all of this happens more or less at the same time, but this is what we see in Scripture (Titus 3:4-7).

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

This is all by God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Enoch111]

For example in 1 Tim 2:3-6, especially verse 4 you are outright lying, or somehow you are oblivious to this fact. Listen to what you have just said: "Were God to choose to save anyone, He would save all" This is NOT what the scripture says at all. It says that God WANTS/WISHES all to be saved.

APAK,

The one thing you should be clear about is that I do not lie about Gospel truth or Bible truth (or anything else). Yes, that verse does say that God wants/wishes/desires the salvation of all. What I was emphasizing is that were God to choose/elect/predestine to save anyone, He would save all.

It appears that you are not totally clear about whether you believe that people are elected for salvation, and that Christ died only for the elect. But that is the false teaching of Calvinism, and I was making it clear that this is really not what is in Scripture.

 

[Enoch111]

You make man his own savior, APAK recognizes God as the savior.

You have no clue about the Gospel or anything else. Man could never be his own savior, so let's put that nonsense aside altogether.

At the same time you, and every Calvinist, and every Christian had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You had to make a decision, a choice, a commitment, a turning from sins and idols to God and Christ.

And if that is not what you did then you are not saved. And if that is what you did then just stop your nonsensical statements and abandon your false gospel.

 

[Helen]

1. The Gospel must be preached (or read)
2. Faith in Christ must be generated by the Gospel
3. The Holy Spirit must convict the sinner to repent and believe
4. Believing and repentance must result in the forgiveness of sins
5. Believing must result in receiving the gift of eternal life
6. Believing must result in receiving the gift/baptism of the Holy Spirit
7. God must also justify by grace the one who believes on Christ
8. The Holy Spirit must regenerate the one who believes
9. The Holy Spirit must place the believer in the Body of Christ
10. Obedience to Christ must follow firstly in baptism, then all else, including good works.

Interesting... So, was the thief on the cross 'special' and different then?
He obviously didn't know your rules for salvation. ...

.........

 

[Dave L]

You have no clue about the Gospel or anything else. Man could never be his own savior, so let's put that nonsense aside altogether.

At the same time you, and every Calvinist, and every Christian had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You had to make a decision, a choice, a commitment, a turning from sins and idols to God and Christ.

And if that is not what you did then you are not saved. And if that is what you did then just stop your nonsensical statements and abandon your false gospel.

According to free will. salvation rests with the individual who chooses to be saved through obedience = works.

 

[Enoch111]

He obviously didn't know your rules for salvation. ...

First it was "legalistic mind" and now it is "rules of salvation". I wonder what it will be next.

We do not know the whole story about that thief on the cross who was saved (justified) by grace through faith in Christ.

What we do know is that multitudes in Judea and Galilee saw and heard Christ preaching and doing His miracles. It is entirely possible that this malefactor (in spite of his sins) heard and saw Christ and knew something about Jesus of Nazareth. Otherwise he would not have said unequivocally that Jesus was totally innocent while he and his companion were guilty. He also noticed the superscription of the cross of Christ -- "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews". He may even have seen the triumphal entry of Christ into Jerusalem prior to the crucifixion.

In brief, he was able to put his total faith in Christ and His Kingdom, and thus he was saved by grace. He believed with all his heart that Christ was indeed King of the Jews, and he wanted to be remembered by Him when Christ came into His Kingdom. And that was enough for Jesus to promise Paradise to this sinner.

 

[Enoch111]

According to free will. salvation rests with the individual who chooses to be saved through obedience = works.

Dave, do you know the difference between obeying the Gospel and trying to do the works of the Law in order to be saved.

You -- if you are indeed saved -- had to obey the Gospel. That is an imperative for each and every person who has been saved by grace. Take some time to study what this means. It is not salvation by works but salvation by grace EXCLUSIVELY through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

 

[CoreIssue]

Dave, do you know the difference between obeying the Gospel and trying to do the works of the Law in order to be saved.

You -- if you are indeed saved -- had to obey the Gospel. That is an imperative for each and every person who has been saved by grace. Take some time to study what this means. It is not salvation by works but salvation by grace EXCLUSIVELY through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

To Dave L the simple act of asking is work.

 

[Helen]

To Dave L the simple act of asking is work.

John 6:28 "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[CoreIssue]

John 6:28 "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Yes. But those are the works of salvation, not the works to be saved.

 

[Dave L]

To Dave L the simple act of asking is work.

What you do is turn the gospel into law and grace into works. God saves us so we can ask. Not because we do. You would not ask otherwise but think it foolishness and go about your sinful ways.

 

[APAK]

It's amazing how Christians immediately jump to legalism instead of trying to understand what is involved. You should know better than that. There is indeed a process of salvation.

1. The Gospel must be preached (or read)
2. Faith in Christ must be generated by the Gospel
3. The Holy Spirit must convict the sinner to repent and believe
4. Believing and repentance must result in the forgiveness of sins
5. Believing must result in receiving the gift of eternal life
6. Believing must result in receiving the gift/baptism of the Holy Spirit
7. God must also justify by grace the one who believes on Christ
8. The Holy Spirit must regenerate the one who believes
9. The Holy Spirit must place the believer in the Body of Christ
10. Obedience to Christ must follow firstly in baptism, then all else, including good works.

Granted all of this happens more or less at the same time, but this is what we see in Scripture (Titus 3:4-7).

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

This is all by God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Let me help you out of reading your Titus scripture as I see you are having difficulty.

(Tit 3:4) But when there appeared the kindness of God our Saviour and His love toward man,
(Tit 3:5) not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit
(Tit 3:6) which He poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour.
(Tit 3:7) This was so that being justified by His grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Tit 3:8) This teaching is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
(Tit 3:9) But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
(Tit 3:10) A divisive person, after a first and second warning, reject,
(Tit 3:11) knowing that such a one is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.

(Titus 3:4-6): God saved us by his kindness and mercy and not by our own self-righteous works. And he did this by renewing us, by his spirit. And what does that mean? It means believers were saved or chosen first and given the gift of faith to demonstrate true repentance from the heart and then were baptized into Christ which is a spirit that belongs to him. Jesus spirit indwelt in us and that time a person begins to believe for the first time. They truly cannot believe until they are in Christ and they can now perform righteous works.

It goes on the say in verse 7 then that believers because they are justified by the Father’s grace (yes, given to those he chose) have true hope in future eternal life.

Now in verse 9: we then believe in our heart/spirit and mind because we are in Christ now, with true faith, and belief can produce righteous works. Not being perfect though, we do not perform always in righteousness. We still need to avoid certain vices or habits.

Now verses 10 and 11 concerns unbelievers, ‘sinners’ (who were not chosen by the grace of God). They are the divisive ones and to be avoided.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

APAK,

The one thing you should be clear about is that I do not lie about Gospel truth or Bible truth (or anything else). Yes, that verse does say that God wants/wishes/desires the salvation of all. What I was emphasizing is that were God to choose/elect/predestine to save anyone, He would save all.

It appears that you are not totally clear about whether you believe that people are elected for salvation, and that Christ died only for the elect. But that is the false teaching of Calvinism, and I was making it clear that this is really not what is in Scripture.

Ok. argumentative, provocative and divisive again I see.

You are still hung up over the chosen/elect/predestination scriptural concept I see.

And why are you building a straw man case, out of nothing I've addressed or said yet....shame on you.

I've already explained it to you that the Father elected those he chooses to salvation. Christ died for all, although some hearts don't cut it for salvation... it is scriptural s my OP addresses. I guess you do not know that the sacrifice for sin was made for all humankind. That does not mean that all shall be saved mate.

And why, so those chosen to be saved by the Father can receive the spirit of Christ for a permanent covering via his baptism and to belief with one's mind to perform righteous works to eternal life.

Bless you,

APAK