The God Disclosed in NDEs

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Berserk

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3 points can be inferred from God's initial Self-disclosure to Moses at the Burning Bush:
"But Moses said to God: "If I come to the Israelites and say to them, "The God of your ancestors has sent me to you," and they ask me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: "God said to Moses: "I am who I am" (or better, "I will be whatever I will be--Exodus 3:13-14)."

(1) God is evasive about the request for His name. Earlier in Jacob's vision of wrestling with God, Jacob is renamed Israel. So he too, like Moses, asks God His name and God evasively replies, "Why do you want to know my name (Genesis 32:29)?" Similarly, God manifests as an angel to tell Manoah about Samson's forthcoming birth and Manoah asks for His name. The angel of the Lord replies evasively, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond your comprehension (Judges 13:18)." The point is this: ancients believed a god's name revealed the god's essence and the real God cannot be put in a conceptual box in this way:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:7-8)."

(2) God's evasive answer to Moses, "I will be whatever I will be," also implies that God will manifest in whatever accommodated way He chooses to the Israelites, but He reserves the right to manifest differently to peoples from other cultures and religions. God later drives this point home to the Israelites when they take Him for granted and negect social justice for the poor. God shocks them by revealing that they are not unique in being brought by God from one land to another:

"Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring the people of Israel up from the land of Egypt? Yes, but also the Philistines from Caphtor (Crete), and the Arameans from Kir (i.e. the Arabs from Iraq--Amos 9:7)?"

Paul starts his address to the Athenians with this observation about their objects of worship:
"I found among them an altar with an inscription, "To an unknown god." what therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:23)."
So Paul concedes that the worship the true God, but without really knowing Him. So Romans 1:19-20 implies neither that there is a valid philosophical argument for God's existence from creation nor that the God perceived neatly corresponds with biblical revelation. Rather, God makes His existence known to human intuition through creation, though His nature and will may be unknown.

Just as God is evasive about offering a limited identity to OT saints, He often declines to reveal His identity in NDEs; and so, the NDErs often project an identity onto Him from their own religious background. But He often self-discloses as God or Jesus to Christians. By contrast, the being of light never, to my knowledge, Self-discloses as Muhammad to Muslims.
 
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Windmillcharge

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As in the story of the crich man and the begger.
'If they will not believe the scriptures, they will not believe even if someone vcomes back from the dead.'

To those who are searching an account of a nde may prompt someone to explore religeon, but it isjust as likely to be paganism as Christianity.

Evangelism with the bible is how we should be reaching out to people.
 

Vince

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3 points can be inferred from God's initial Self-disclosure to Moses at the Burning Bush:
"But Moses said to God: "If I come to the Israelites and say to them, "The God of your ancestors has sent me to you," and they ask me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: "God said to Moses: "I am who I am" (or better, "I will be whatever I will be--Exodus 3:13-14)."

(1) God is evasive about the request for His name. Earlier in Jacob's vision of wrestling with God, Jacob is renamed Israel. So he too, like Moses, asks God His name and God evasively replies, "Why do you want to know my name (Genesis 32:29)?" Similarly, God manifests as an angel to tell Manoah about Samson's forthcoming birth and Manoah asks for His name. The angel of the Lord replies evasively, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond your comprehension (Judges 13:18)." The point is this: ancients believed a god's name revealed the god's essence and the real God cannot be put in a conceptual box in this way:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:7-8)."

(2) God's evasive answer to Moses, "I will be whatever I will be," also implies that God will manifest in whatever accommodated way He chooses to the Israelites, but He reserves the right to manifest differently to peoples from other cultures and religions. God later drives this point home to the Israelites when they take Him for granted and negect social justice for the poor. God shocks them by revealing that they are not unique in being brought by God from one land to another:

"Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring the people of Israel up from the land of Egypt? Yes, but also the Philistines from Caphtor (Crete), and the Arameans from Kir (i.e. the Arabs from Iraq--Amos 9:7)?"

Paul starts his address to the Athenians with this observation about their objects of worship:
"I found among them an altar with an inscription, "To an unknown god." what therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:23)."
So Paul concedes that the worship the true God, but without really knowing Him. So Romans 1:19-20 implies neither that there is a valid philosophical argument for God's existence from creation nor that the God perceived neatly corresponds with biblical revelation. Rather, God makes His existence known to human intuition through creation, though His nature and will may be unknown.

Just as God is evasive about offering a limited identity to OT saints, He often declines to reveal His identity in NDEs; and so, the NDErs often project an identity onto Him from their own religious background.
Like I have been saying if god exists then he has been unclear about his existence and motives.

But He often self-discloses as God or Jesus to Christians.
How does god do this?

By contrast, the being of light never, to my knowledge, Self-discloses as Muhammad to Muslims.
Why do you discount claims from Muslims that they have encountered god?
 

marks

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Paul starts his address to the Athenians with this observation about their objects of worship:
"I found among them an altar with an inscription, "To an unknown god." what therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:23)."
So Paul concedes that the worship the true God, but without really knowing Him. So Romans 1:19-20 implies neither that there is a valid philosophical argument for God's existence from creation nor that the God perceived neatly corresponds with biblical revelation. Rather, God makes His existence known to human intuition through creation, though His nature and will may be unknown.

Hi Berserk,

Interesting post!

Personally I've never found an NDE account that lines up with the Bible, so there's that.

You mentioned what we can know God's existence from creation, but not His nature.

I think we can know some things of His nature. I think the one's Paul addressed in Acts weren't paying attention. So Paul was helping them out.

If God created all this:

He has all power over His creation - omnipotent
He has all knowledge of His creation - omniscient
He understands how everything works - All Wise
He is outside His creation - Transcendant
He built beauty and love into His creation. Make of that what you will.

Much love!
mark
 

Berserk

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Vince: "Like I have been saying if god exists then he has been unclear about his existence and motives."

He has been clear to those who experience His presence. As Billy Graham once said, "In life theological understanding is the booby prize because it offers just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing." The real thing is self-authenticating spiritual experience--the only way to change the core assumptions that trap the skeptic in closed-minded unbelief.

Vince: "Why do you discount claims from Muslims that they have encountered god?"

Why do you wrongly put words in my mouth to duck the core issues?
 

Helen

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3 points can be inferred from God's initial Self-disclosure to Moses at the Burning Bush:
"But Moses said to God: "If I come to the Israelites and say to them, "The God of your ancestors has sent me to you," and they ask me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: "God said to Moses: "I am who I am" (or better, "I will be whatever I will be--Exodus 3:13-14)."

(1) God is evasive about the request for His name. Earlier in Jacob's vision of wrestling with God, Jacob is renamed Israel. So he too, like Moses, asks God His name and God evasively replies, "Why do you want to know my name (Genesis 32:29)?" Similarly, God manifests as an angel to tell Manoah about Samson's forthcoming birth and Manoah asks for His name. The angel of the Lord replies evasively, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond your comprehension (Judges 13:18)." The point is this: ancients believed a god's name revealed the god's essence and the real God cannot be put in a conceptual box in this way:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:7-8)."

(2) God's evasive answer to Moses, "I will be whatever I will be," also implies that God will manifest in whatever accommodated way He chooses to the Israelites, but He reserves the right to manifest differently to peoples from other cultures and religions. God later drives this point home to the Israelites when they take Him for granted and negect social justice for the poor. God shocks them by revealing that they are not unique in being brought by God from one land to another:

"Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring the people of Israel up from the land of Egypt? Yes, but also the Philistines from Caphtor (Crete), and the Arameans from Kir (i.e. the Arabs from Iraq--Amos 9:7)?"

Paul starts his address to the Athenians with this observation about their objects of worship:
"I found among them an altar with an inscription, "To an unknown god." what therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:23)."
So Paul concedes that the worship the true God, but without really knowing Him. So Romans 1:19-20 implies neither that there is a valid philosophical argument for God's existence from creation nor that the God perceived neatly corresponds with biblical revelation. Rather, God makes His existence known to human intuition through creation, though His nature and will may be unknown.

Just as God is evasive about offering a limited identity to OT saints, He often declines to reveal His identity in NDEs; and so, the NDErs often project an identity onto Him from their own religious background. But He often self-discloses as God or Jesus to Christians. By contrast, the being of light never, to my knowledge, Self-discloses as Muhammad to Muslims.

Good post...Agree.

Those who believe that Jesus is still in a long white robe and long brown hair will see just that..God being a loving God.

Those who believe angels have wings...will 'see' angels with wings.

( I have seen four ...all at one time...they did not have wings. )
 

Vince

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Vince: "Like I have been saying if god exists then he has been unclear about his existence and motives."

He has been clear to those who experience His presence. As Billy Graham once said, "In life theological understanding is the booby prize because it offers just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing." The real thing is self-authenticating spiritual experience--the only way to change the core assumptions that trap the skeptic in closed-minded unbelief.
This is nonsense. So the more you try to learn about the faith the worse off you will be?

Vince: "Why do you discount claims from Muslims that they have encountered god?"

Why do you wrongly put words in my mouth to duck the core issues?
Do you believe that Allah is god?

I have not ducked the core issues, you have avoided responding to my questions like how do you link these stories with the god of the bible? and How can I tell the difference between someone telling the truth and someone lying about these accounts?

If someone says if I drop this pen it will go up to the ceiling I can actually verify their claim and know if they are telling the truth. If someone tells me that saw god when they were dead how do I know if they are telling the truth or not?
 

lforrest

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This is nonsense. So the more you try to learn about the faith the worse off you will be?

Do you believe that Allah is god?

I have not ducked the core issues, you have avoided responding to my questions like how do you link these stories with the god of the bible? and How can I tell the difference between someone telling the truth and someone lying about these accounts?

If someone says if I drop this pen it will go up to the ceiling I can actually verify their claim and know if they are telling the truth. If someone tells me that saw god when they were dead how do I know if they are telling the truth or not?

Worse off in what respect?
Those who study the scriptures but do not have the Spirit of God, don't really know him. These religious ones are in for a disappointment when they are denied life.

Those of the other religions often follow some moral laws, in order to live "good" lives. Their strict adherence leads to the land not rejecting them outright. This allows for the survival of their people, culture, and religion. But it does not lead to eternal life.

I reject some NDE testimonies based on my insights, otherwise I don't really think anything more of it than oh that is neat.

If you do not believe personal experiences, you by necessity think they are all liars in a grand conspiracy. This is unreasonable IMHO.
 
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Wafer

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A man who has taken his last breath is dead. A man who has not taken his last breath is not dead. So exactly when do you declare him to be "near death"?