The God that mankind is rebelling against doesn't exist.

[brakelite]

Man's misapprehension over the character of God began in the garden when Adam and Eve sewed for themselves fig leaves and hid. This mindset continued throughout man's history, and was seen markedly in Nimrod who institutionalized it and made it an ideological system that today we call Babylon. It was seen at Babel because the tower was built on that false premise...that rebellion against God was fully justified for two reasons...God is to be feared and God doesn't care.
The tower of Babel was built on 2 principles...self exaltation and self-preservation. Self exaltation because God only cared for Himself, and self preservation because God was to be feared. Human beings today are doing the only thing they can do in ight of their perspective on the character of God inherited by the race from Adam, and made an official religion at Babel. To live for themselves and preserve themselves. They don't believe God is interested in them and nor do they believe He is interested in protecting them or looking after them....in fact most believe, even many Christians, believe God wants to take stuff away from them that is for their good.
But man is deceived!
The God who man is rebelling against does not exist. So what was God's response to this dilemma? First, He called a man out of Babylon and started him on a journey whereby he would learn to trust God in all things and prove God a loving beneficent Protector and Saviour. His name was Abraham. God gave him and his progeny commandments and a law and a mode of living that was to be a blessing for all people. And God has been calling people (ekklesia) out of Babylon ever since. And it is our calling to bring others with us. But we cannot do that if we ourselves are unwilling to accept those things which God gave to be a blessing, demonstrating His willingness to take care of and preserve and protect man from all that would harm him. One such blessing is the Sabbath. In rejecting the Sabbath, man is reverting to Babylon...."seeking his own pleasure and doing his own ways" (Isaiah 58:13,14.)
Abram was called out of the self-exalting culture of Babylon in order to be a blessing to all the nations of the world. And that call still resounds today..."Come our of her My people, that ye be not a partaker of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues".

 

[quietthinker]

It was seen at Babel because the tower was built on that false premise...that rebellion against God was fully justified for two reasons...God is to be feared and God doesn't care.

Yes, these two qualities believed will make men project. Heathenism (babylon) is a projection of mans insecurity. The thirst for power has him create gods in his own image, gods that constantly need appeasing.

 

[Windmillcharge]

They don't believe God is interested in them and nor do they believe He is interested in protecting them or looking after them

Mankind has been decieved by satan since Adam. He has blinded, confused and distracted mankind away from the self evident characteristics of God.

The whole Adam and Eve story shows Gods love for mankind.
Adam is not left to blunder blinfly around to seek God. God is with him from the instant of hios creation. He is instructed by God, he expeiences Gods care and provission for him.
Even in rebellion Gods love and care is seen.

God calls to Adam, giving him the chance to admit what has happened. Instead Adam blame God and Eve.
God even in judgement shows his care for Adam by clothing him.

Noah a preacher of rightousness, built an enormous Ark, a symbol of coming judgement. The arrival of the animals, another sign of coming judgement.
Noah went into the Ark a whole seven days before the flood started. The world that perished had a final week to repent before it was too late.

Gods love and care for mankind is seen fully through out the bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Man's misapprehension over the character of God began in the garden when Adam and Eve sewed for themselves fig leaves and hid. This mindset continued throughout man's history, and was seen markedly in Nimrod who institutionalized it and made it an ideological system that today we call Babylon. It was seen at Babel because the tower was built on that false premise...that rebellion against God was fully justified for two reasons...God is to be feared and God doesn't care.
The tower of Babel was built on 2 principles...self exaltation and self-preservation. Self exaltation because God only cared for Himself, and self preservation because God was to be feared. Human beings today are doing the only thing they can do in ight of their perspective on the character of God inherited by the race from Adam, and made an official religion at Babel. To live for themselves and preserve themselves. They don't believe God is interested in them and nor do they believe He is interested in protecting them or looking after them....in fact most believe, even many Christians, believe God wants to take stuff away from them that is for their good.
But man is deceived!
The God who man is rebelling against does not exist. So what was God's response to this dilemma? First, He called a man out of Babylon and started him on a journey whereby he would learn to trust God in all things and prove God a loving beneficent Protector and Saviour. His name was Abraham. God gave him and his progeny commandments and a law and a mode of living that was to be a blessing for all people. And God has been calling people (ekklesia) out of Babylon ever since. And it is our calling to bring others with us. But we cannot do that if we ourselves are unwilling to accept those things which God gave to be a blessing, demonstrating His willingness to take care of and preserve and protect man from all that would harm him. One such blessing is the Sabbath. In rejecting the Sabbath, man is reverting to Babylon...."seeking his own pleasure and doing his own ways" (Isaiah 58:13,14.)
Abram was called out of the self-exalting culture of Babylon in order to be a blessing to all the nations of the world. And that call still resounds today..."Come our of her My people, that ye be not a partaker of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues".

I believe that the focus of the gospel message has nothing to do with what day the Lord rested on after creating everything; but that it has everything to do with Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

You can make the sabbath an issue; but to the godly Christian it is only a peripheral issue; and in Romans 14 it can be clearly seen that if it is all that important to you then by all means be fully convinced in your own mind that you must keep the sabbath; but also allow for the person who sees every day alike to be fully convinced in their own minds.

Also the sabbath and holy days and meats are things that we are not to let others judge us over; because the Lord has blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and also triumphed over every principality and power (Colossians 2:14-16).

 

[quietthinker]

handwriting of ordinances

'handwriting of ordinances'....what would you say that is justbyfaith?

 

[justbyfaith]

'handwriting of ordinances'....what would you say that is justbyfaith?

Since scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)) I suggest comparing this to Ephesians 2:15-16, Hebrews 7:18-19 and Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, and Romans 7:6.

 

[quietthinker]

Since scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)) I suggest comparing this to Ephesians 2:15-16, Hebrews 7:18-19 and Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, and Romans 7:6.

I would like you to give it to me in your own words. Throwing around texts as cannon fodder doesn't do it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16, And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Heb 7:18, For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19, For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:4, Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I do not like to put things in my own words when I can take flack for putting the teaching of the Bible in my own words. Suffice it to say that what I have emphasized in the above scriptures is as close as you are going to come to my words on the issue.

 

[quietthinker]

Eph 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16, And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Heb 7:18, For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19, For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:4, Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I do not like to put things in my own words when I can take flack for putting the teaching of the Bible in my own words. Suffice it to say that what I have emphasized in the above scriptures is as close as you are going to come to my words on the issue.

I hear what you're saying jbf. The reason I ask is that God's character being the subject here and his law being a transcript of it, it is a good thing as is testified in the Psalms and the prophets many times, and being written in our hearts by God himself I would consider it an honour to worship him by keeping it, so my question relates more to how we are to understand these texts you have quoted.

Is it not sin that is the problem rather than the law? Is it not sin that Jesus dealt with by his death and resurrection?
I wonder how Jesus meant what he said when he said 'I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it?

If we understand these texts as saying that God's law is no longer applicable I am curious why scripture exhorts us to live according to the law of liberty that brings the peace that ancient Israel forfeited by disregarding it and by substituting their own ideas?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hello @quietthinker,

I believe that the Lord would say that as believers in Christ, as blood-bought saints, we who are in Christ we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:8, Hebrews 9:12, Romans 8:38-39); so that our relationship to the law is that we are no longer under it, we are dead to it, and we are delivered from it, as concerning condemnation (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Romans 8:1, John 5:24) coming from the outside, as letters written on tablets of stone (2 Corinthians 3:3).

However it is still to govern us from the inside.

I believe that Hebrews 8:8-10 makes it clear: that the new covenant that God will make with Israel and Judah (which also applies to the Gentiles) is that He will write His laws on our hearts and in our minds. Hebrews 10:16 also says the same; and you get the same impression if you compare Romans 5:5 with Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, and 2 John 1:6.

Now the whole of Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6 is important in this: for it is not the letter of the law that we are necessarily to obey and be sticklers for; but we are to be obedient to the spirit of the law. Jesus was not disobedient to the spirit of the law when He healed on the sabbath days; though those who were sticklers for the letter pointed the finger at Him in condemnation.

 

[quietthinker]

He will write His laws on our hearts and in our minds.

Then we are not antagonistic to his Law? or are we?
So how do we understand the difference between what is written on our hearts and those written on stone?

but we are to be obedient to the spirit of the law.

Was not the Spirit of the Law the point of God giving the Law?

One thing is clear and that is that your intent is referring to the Decalogue as being abolished.
How can this be when those same Laws are written on our hearts?.....you know, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery...and so on
When you quoted Ephesians 2:15 and in larger highlighted print you it stated '....even the law of commandments....
but it continues, as you have also mentioned but in smaller print 'contained in ordinances....

Surely you are aware that the reference and qualification to ordinances is not a reference to the decalogue? besides, it is not ordinances that are written on our hearts but the ten words embodying his Character. He wants us to reflect who he is. He wants his image replicated as it was when he created us in Eden. The same image that Jesus presented to the world as Hebrews 1:3 states, 'The Son is the radiance of Gods glory, the exact representation of his being...'

Sooo, we needs differentiated what 'law' is referred to and intended in scripture. It is clear that law breakers will want to dismiss the Decalogue as having no claim on us because it suits their agenda....they want to break God's Law with impunity but this is not the picture the New Testament writers give.

The letters to the Churches in Revelation call us to overcome....I don't think it is referring to overcoming ordinances and I'm quiet certain you don't either.

 

[justbyfaith]

It has to do with the fact that we have been forgiven of every sin.

What then is our relationship to the law?

It no longer has the capability of condemning us.

It still governs us on the inside, however.

It governs not by the letter, but by the spirit.

Jesus obeyed the spirit of the law perfectly.

However, He broke the sabbath (John 5:17-18); so when it came down to the nitty-gritty of the letter, He didn't do so hot.

So then, either Jesus sinned or else it isn't about the letter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10).

The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

If we walk according to the love of the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); there is no law that will condemn us if we behave as those who consistently bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[quietthinker]

However, He broke the sabbath (John 5:17-18); so when it came down to the nitty-gritty of the letter, He didn't do so hot.

So then, either Jesus sinned or else it isn't about the letter.

Jesus broke the the laws that men created claiming they were God's law when in fact they were laws of there own making. He never broke Gods law. If he had so done he would not have been perfect and his sacrifice of no avail.

The letter of the law is about doing by rote without understanding the point of the law ie, trying to impress God by doing. This is the mindset of the unregenerate man who really doesn't want to do the law and attempts to make it void.

The spirit of the law is doing the law because one knows and believes it is the law of life....it promotes every relationship...man to God, man to man. Jesus lived the law of life. It maintains health in the whole spectrum as demonstrated by Jesus. God embodies the Law, thats why breaking it brings death. Lawlessness = death.

You'll recall the rich young rulers question to Jesus.....what must i do to inherit eternal life?.....you also know the answer Jesus gave him; keep the law.

When the law is broken, death becomes inevitable as was promised to Adam. When Adam sinned something shifted in his whole make up and the make up of the created order. He became subject to death including all his descendants. Adam and Eve knew God's commandments....don't kill, don't steal, be faithful, remember the sabbath day etc. Jesus took that death upon himself. He is the second Adam. He has not now given permission to disregard that same law in the slightest. What he has done for those who trust in his atonement (it's called faith) is empower them, to give back to them what was taken from them in Adam, namely, the desire for righteousness, the willingness to keep God's Law and the ability to do it. The scripture calls it sanctification or the power to overcome sin.

Deliberately setting that law aside as if it no longer has a claim on us is playing right into the devils hand. It was he who set himself up against God. It is he who promotes theft and adultery and murder. It is he who promotes the worship of other God's and encourages people to forget that he is the Creator of which the Sabbath is his memorial. It is the devil who twists the scripture to make men believe that God's Law is no longer binding making them believe that it can be transgressed with impunity, but God is jealous for his Law. It is because it is impossible for God to abrogate his Law that Jesus died. It will be the Law by which all men will be judged. How can that be if it no longer applies? Do you see that?

Jesus begged his Father in Gethsemane that it were possible the cup he was about to drink be removed if some other way could be found.
If it was possible then all God had to do was remove the demands of the law, and death would not have applied. There would have been no need for a sacrifice.

Consider these statements made by and of God....'I am who I am' .... 'with whom there is no variableness nor shadow of turning' .... 'the same yesterday, today and forever'....

If we understand Paul's messages incorrectly and believe those incorrect understandings we are doing ourselves an eternal disservice.

 

[brakelite]

Jesus obeyed the spirit of the law perfectly.

However, He broke the sabbath (John 5:17-18); so when it came down to the nitty-gritty of the letter, He didn't do so hot.

So then, either Jesus sinned or else it isn't about the letter.

If Jesus kept the spirit of the law, you can be assured He kept the letter. One can keep the latter of the law but not the spirit of it. I can refrain from stealing my neighbours car, but I may covet it. Coveting that car belonging to someone else is the same as stealing it. Lust like lusting after someone's wife is the same as adultery. So one can keep one commandment, but because they are all interconnected, the whole law is broken with the neglect of just one. Just as James said,
James 2:10,11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
But if one is observing the Spirit of the law, there is no way he can transgress the letter. If you love your neighbour, your desire toward him would be for his blessing...his advantage...his increase. Rather than desiring to take something from him, you would seek to add to his possessions, happiness, or blessings. And if you loved God, you would be so focused upon Him, loving what He loves and hating what He hates, there would be no time for idols, removing one jot from the holiness of His name would be abhorrent to you, and wanting to spend time with Him on His chosen day (not yours) would become a highlight of the week. No "law-keeping" there per the letter...all born of love and His character ...His Spirit....Christ Himself...His word....within.

 

[Episkopos]

And it is also true that the devil is not what people think he is. He is far craftier than people think. Which leads back to the OP. How could people get God so wrong unless the lies were that well crafted?

 

[brakelite]

And it is also true that the devil is not what people think he is. He is far craftier than people think. Which leads back to the OP. How could people get God so wrong unless the lies were that well crafted?

Indeed. Even while Adam and Eve were so privileged to have Jesus and the Father to commune with directly in the garden, Satan managed to rearrange their thinking that Eve ended up thinking God was holding out on them by forbidding that one tree. And Christians still think that they don't die as a result of sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Indeed. Even while Adam and Eve were so privileged to have Jesus and the Father to commune with directly in the garden, Satan managed to rearrange their thinking that Eve ended up thinking God was holding out on them by forbidding that one tree. And Christians still think that they don't die as a result of sin.

Amen. And the devil's specialty is on the subject of grace. People understand grace as God looking the other way when we sin...it His new found permissiveness towards sin in His people. Or so it is taught.

But if God is happy to cover our sins and if that is what grace is...then how do we frustrate the grace of God? By not sinning enough?

 

[justbyfaith]

Deu 22:12, Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.

If you do not wear tzitizit, you are in violation of the (letter of the) law; and are therefore guilty of breaking all of it.

But if one is observing the Spirit of the law, there is no way he can transgress the letter.

Yet Jesus broke the letter of the law in healing on the sabbath (John 5:17-18). Yet He did not violate the spirit of the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

But if God is happy to cover our sins and if that is what grace is...then how do we frustrate the grace of God? By not sinning enough?

By not trusting in the finished work of the Cross.