The Godhead: One Substance or One Subsistence!

[IanLC]

Greetings to all,

I have been in a mental and theological struggle over the doctrine of the Godhead. I believe in the Trinitarian (though not saying that those that hold a different view are wrong) view of the Godhead. Yet I am struggling over the terms of substance vs subsistence. Both having similar definitions but meaning different things. Substance means "a particular kind of matter with uniform qualities" further defined as "of having meaning or essence or nature of existence". While Subsistence means "the act of fashion of maintaining oneself" further defined as "a being who existence does not interfere with another being or stands independent of another". For example, Jesus Christ the Son of God and Second Person of the Divine Trinity is said to have One Subsistence: The Son of God "Second Of The Trinity" yet two substances that of His humanity and His divinity. In relating back to the Godhead I have come to the conclusion that God has One Subsistence and Three Substances (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Yet could it be that God is One Substance with Three Subsistence's? What do you all think?

Scriptures to ponder on:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:25)

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (St. John 1:1-3)

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (1 John 5:5-8)

"For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

 

[OzSpen]

Greetings to all,

I have been in a mental and theological struggle over the doctrine of the Godhead. I believe in the Trinitarian (though not saying that those that hold a different view are wrong) view of the Godhead. Yet I am struggling over the terms of substance vs subsistence. Both having similar definitions but meaning different things. Substance means "a particular kind of matter with uniform qualities" further defined as "of having meaning or essence or nature of existence". While Subsistence means "the act of fashion of maintaining oneself" further defined as "a being who existence does not interfere with another being or stands independent of another". For example, Jesus Christ the Son of God and Second Person of the Divine Trinity is said to have One Subsistence: The Son of God "Second Of The Trinity" yet two substances that of His humanity and His divinity. In relating back to the Godhead I have come to the conclusion that God has One Subsistence and Three Substances (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Yet could it be that God is One Substance with Three Subsistence's? What do you all think?

Scriptures to ponder on:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:25)

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (St. John 1:1-3)

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (1 John 5:5-8)

"For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

Alan,

I prefer to use the term the 'essence' of God, essence having practically the same meaning as 'substance'. Henry Thiessen defines essence/substance as:

that which underlies all outward manifestation; the reality itself, whether material or immaterial; the substratum of anything; that in which the qualities or attributes inhere. Both these terms refer to the basic aspect of the nature of God; if there were no essence or substance, there would be no attributes. Let us be clear, then, that when we speak of God we speak of an essence, a substance, not of a mere idea or the personification of an idea (Thiessen 1949:119).

To put it starkly, it is the 'stuff' of which God is made. However, 'subsistence' (dictionary.com) refers to the means of supporting God's 'substance'. BUT, how can we possibly divide the essence from the subsistence of God. They are both involved in the intricacies of his being. I'm not sure that we need to be too concerned about differentiating between substance and subsistence as they are both involved in God's very existence.

I can't wrap my thinking around a thorough understanding of God's essence.

But this I know: He exists and his essence is manifest in the display of his attributes in our world and through Scripture, e.g. his compassion, eternity, faithfulness, freedom goodness, grace, holiness, immutability, justice, love, mercy, etc.

I do not take the line that you do that, 'I believe in the Trinitarian (though not saying that those that hold a different view are wrong) view of the Godhead'. While I admit that the doctrine of the Trinity has mysterious dimensions, I'm convinced of the orthodox teaching of Scripture of the Trinitarian God:
1. God is three persons (e.g. John 1:1-2 ESV).
2. Each person (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is God (John 1:1-4 ESV).
3. There is one God (Deut 6:4-5 NIV).

That should get us started.

In Christ,
Oz

Works consulted
Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings to all,

I have been in a mental and theological struggle over the doctrine of the Godhead. I believe in the Trinitarian (though not saying that those that hold a different view are wrong) view of the Godhead. Yet I am struggling over the terms of substance vs subsistence. Both having similar definitions but meaning different things. Substance means "a particular kind of matter with uniform qualities" further defined as "of having meaning or essence or nature of existence". While Subsistence means "the act of fashion of maintaining oneself" further defined as "a being who existence does not interfere with another being or stands independent of another". For example, Jesus Christ the Son of God and Second Person of the Divine Trinity is said to have One Subsistence: The Son of God "Second Of The Trinity" yet two substances that of His humanity and His divinity. In relating back to the Godhead I have come to the conclusion that God has One Subsistence and Three Substances (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Yet could it be that God is One Substance with Three Subsistence's? What do you all think?

Scriptures to ponder on:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:25)

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (St. John 1:1-3)

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (1 John 5:5-8)

"For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

I would submit that there is one substance. Whatever substance the Father is, so is the Son. So, the Son is a separate entity from the Father but of the same substance as the Father. He later when born of Mary became flesh. Paul said of Christ,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Phil. 2:6-7 NAS)

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Was Jesus independent ?
Did Jesus have a dependency ?

 

[IanLC]

I amend my original post in the fact that the Godhead is "One Substance and Three Subsistences" not "One Subsistence and Three Substances". Three that bear witness as One! Each give testament and yet each of their testaments are One! Each speaks and acts individually but as One! Like a tribunal that each looks at the case but gives ONE verdict!

 

[OzSpen]

I amend my original post in the fact that the Godhead is "One Substance and Three Subsistences" not "One Subsistence and Three Substances". Three that bear witness as One! Each give testament and yet each of their testaments are One! Each speaks and acts individually but as One! Like a tribunal that each looks at the case but gives ONE verdict!

Alan,

So where's the struggle in understanding that there is one substance, God Almighty, and there are three persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Each of these persons has a separate function, but they are acting in conformity with the essence and 'rules' of the one God. Jesus confirmed this in a statement such as, 'I and the Father are one' (John 10:30 ESV). They are one in essence, not one in function.

I don't find the language of 'three subsistences' to be helpful.

Oz

 

[IanLC]

Alan,

So where's the struggle in understanding that there is one substance, God Almighty, and there are three persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Each of these persons has a separate function, but they are acting in conformity with the essence and 'rules' of the one God. Jesus confirmed this in a statement such as, 'I and the Father are one' (John 10:30 ESV). They are one in essence, not one in function.

I don't find the language of 'three subsistences' to be helpful.

Oz

Hi, I agree with you its just that I am trying to understand more of the greatness of our God as revealed through the Holy Trinity. I believe and know that there is One God and that He is the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Three of One! The Father creates and sustains life and begot the Son, Jesus the Son redeems and saves mankind and is sent of the Father, and the Holy Ghost is the sanctifying agent and sent of the Father and Son. They may have different functions but are One Substance or in your words essence thus One God He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost the Godhead.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi, I agree with you its just that I am trying to understand more of the greatness of our God as revealed through the Holy Trinity. I believe and know that there is One God and that He is the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Three of One! The Father creates and sustains life and begot the Son, Jesus the Son redeems and saves mankind and is sent of the Father, and the Holy Ghost is the sanctifying agent and sent of the Father and Son. They may have different functions but are One Substance or in your words essence thus One God He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost the Godhead.

Alan,

Do you do much reading of systematic theology books? I have found them helpful in dealing with fundamental Bible doctrines. I've been particularly helped by Henry C. Thiessen, Lectures in Systematic Theology (Eerdmans) and Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Zondervan) and his smaller version of this, Bible Doctrine (Zondervan/IVP UK).

Oz

 

[IanLC]

Alan,

Do you do much reading of systematic theology books? I have found them helpful in dealing with fundamental Bible doctrines. I've been particularly helped by Henry C. Thiessen, Lectures in Systematic Theology (Eerdmans) and Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Zondervan) and his smaller version of this, Bible Doctrine (Zondervan/IVP UK).

Oz

Thank You! I will look into these writings!!

 

[numenian]

Greetings to all,

I have been in a mental and theological struggle over the doctrine of the Godhead. I believe in the Trinitarian (though not saying that those that hold a different view are wrong) view of the Godhead. Yet I am struggling over the terms of substance vs subsistence. Both having similar definitions but meaning different things. Substance means "a particular kind of matter with uniform qualities" further defined as "of having meaning or essence or nature of existence". While Subsistence means "the act of fashion of maintaining oneself" further defined as "a being who existence does not interfere with another being or stands independent of another". For example, Jesus Christ the Son of God and Second Person of the Divine Trinity is said to have One Subsistence: The Son of God "Second Of The Trinity" yet two substances that of His humanity and His divinity. In relating back to the Godhead I have come to the conclusion that God has One Subsistence and Three Substances (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Yet could it be that God is One Substance with Three Subsistence's? What do you all think?

Scriptures to ponder on:
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:25)

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (St. John 1:1-3)

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (1 John 5:5-8)

"For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

As I was in the middle of reading your excellent and provocative query, the three types of love--Eros, Philos, and Agape--suddenly came to mind. It gave me pause. Without really pondering it all the way through, it appears that love is of one substance and three subsistencies. As God is love, the nature of love is of one substance and three subsistencies: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Their expressions or functions may differ in some degrees yet is subsumed under and directed by love. Will think about this more and get back to you.

 

[OzSpen]

Thank You! I will look into these writings!!

Alan,

All of the Thiessen book is available online as a pdf document - free! I have found him concise and helpful. Stacked with Scripture to support his views that are based on Scripture.

Oz