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The Holy Trinity

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Boston, Oct 19, 2009.

  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Hi Selene,
    It's not hard to understand. The word translated God, is the Greek word "Theos" it means deity or divine. The Father is diety (God=Theos), Jesus is deity (God=Theos), the Holy Spirit is deity (God=Theos). It's not three persons in one being, "Theos" doesn't mean being. Concerning Isaiah, you have to check the Masoretic text when you see things that don't fit. The clause, everlasting Father is "NOT" in the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the Greek Old Testament that Jesus and the apostles quoted from. Here is Isaiah 9:6 from the Septuagint.


    KJV Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV)

    I think you've got some of these passages out of context. In Romans 9-11 Paul is explaining God's plan to fulfill His promises to Abraham. It's not about the Gentiles.
     
  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Some of you might want to consider this verse as your working out your own salvation. Phil 2:12-16
    Phil 2:6
     
  3. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    And what are God's Promise to Abraham? In Acts 3:25, 26,

    25 "It is you who are the sons of the prophets
    and of the covenant which God made with your
    fathers, saying to Abraham, "AND IN YOUR SEED
    ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE
    BLESSED".
    26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and
    sent Him to bless you by turning every one of
    you from your wicked ways."

    God sent the man "Jesus the Christ" to die and be resurrected
    and send back the "Spirit of Truth" to deliver us from our wicked
    ways.

    He did this first to the nation of Israel and they rejected His Way
    @ Mount Horeb. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and He came unto
    the Jews when He became flesh and they rejected Him also.

    We know that it was prophesied in the scriptures that they would
    reject him. But God's Plan was to bring them back into the fold
    after the (gentile nations) have made a new covenant with Jesus.
    Hebrews 8:7,8.

    Now we are the Bride of Christ because of our new relationship with
    Jesus whether you are an Israelite or Gentile. No longer do we need
    certain genetics to have a personal relationship with God. We have a
    new covenant where God writes His Laws in our hearts and in the
    process, "He delivers us from evil", just as He promised it to Abraham.

    In order for Israelites or Jews to benefit from the promise to Abraham,
    they must accept Jesus and not resist the Holy Ghost. However, God in
    His sovereignty, has promised that they will indeed accept Jesus in the
    future. Not because of their genetics, but because they will believe that
    Jesus is truly the Christ. They will understand His deity and will worship
    Him as the only True God and Savior.

    They will understand why Jesus said, "if they don't worship me the stones
    will surely cry out. Luke 19:37-40 says,

    37 As soon as He was approaching, near the descent
    of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the
    disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice
    for all the miracles which they had seen,
    38 shouting : "BLESSED IS THE KING WHO COMES IN
    THE NAME OF THE LORD ; Peace in heaven and glory
    in the highest !"
    39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him,
    "Teacher, rebuke Your disciples."
    40 But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become
    silent, the stones will cry out!"

    At that moment, Jesus knew his disciples seen Him and knew who He
    was by the Spirit. Emanuel, God with us. Yes, you have to see Him in
    the Spirit or He will speak to you in parables.

    Logabe
     
  4. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    if you read scripture you will find that the Father draws all people unto himself and Jesus saves all who come to him and the Holy Spirit convicts everyone of their sins so we want to be saved.

    each one has a different office to uphold but none of them are any more important then another but are all of the same importance. as you read scripture you will find more abilities of each one and that they all act of one accord and harmoniously.

    God bless
     
  5. Sabitarian

    Sabitarian New Member

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    I really do not understand why none of you understand the God is not a trinity, but a duality as the original language plainly shows by using a masculin neutered pronoun for the Spirit which is just a part of God, but not a separate entity. If the words for Holy Spirit were properly translated they would be, it, that and the like and not him . This translation is from Catholic mythology as it is just another of their ways to make you follow their traditions, which gives them the right to be over all denominations, as all denominations use their doctrine in their worship of the god, but not God. The next holiday, Christ Mass is just another example of Catholic dominance over all denominations, as they celebrate it without having any scriptural backing, in fact scripture forbids the celebration of this pagan fertility ritual, as it is adding to scripture and taking away the Holy Days of the one true God. Read Revelation 22:18-19 for verification of this. Why worship the god of the earth when you are suppose to be worshiping the Creator of all things. Satan wants you to celebrate fertility rites as the true worship as he knows that by doing so you are going to miss out on salvation for pagan worship and that is why the one true God tells you "come out of her my people" in the book of Revelation. Do your own scripture study to find the answer, please do not take the word of another for fact, as Christ commends one of the Churches for doing their own scripture study to make sure that what they are hearing is according to the Word of God. The answers are out there for you to find, but you need to search for them.
    humble servant of the Lord God Most High
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    What does this have to do with the fact that Jesus said those things to the Jews. As I pointed out, the Jews were blinded intentionally. Jesus said He had only come to the Jews. It was to the Jews that He spoke in parables. Can you show me from context anywhere His parable were directed to Gentiles?


    I am looking into the issue of the Holy Spirit. I also don't celebrate Christmas anymore as I've come to learn it's true origins.
     
  7. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Butch5,

    First of all, I stated that there are three persons in one God. We believe in only One God. The Father is God. The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. If you believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one God, then you and I are in agreement.
    ,
    This is taken from the Septuagint or LXX Bible, which Christ and the Apostles used, and I provided the weblink of the LXX Bible:

    Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: [sup][e][/sup] for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

    Taken from the LXX

    http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/Isaiah/9.html

    According to the footnotes in the weblink, "Messenger of Great Council" is interpreted to mean: Alex. +Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come; Compare Heb 2:2


    John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    This biblical passage shows that the Holy Spirit is a person. The author called the Holy Spirit a "HE" which indicates a person. Furthermore, Jesus said that God is a spirit (See John 4:24). Since God is a spirit and considered a person, then the Holy Spirit is also a person. And in Hebrews 1:14, the angels are called "ministering spirits", and are also considered as being persons. And if angels, who are ministering spirits are persons, then it stands to reason that the Holy Spirit sent by God is also a "person."
     
  8. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    It has a lot to do with it when you understand that God has blinded
    all people for His Purpose. Eph. 4:17,18 says,

    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
    henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk , in the
    vanity of their mind,
    18 Having the understanding darkened , being
    alienated from the life of God through the ignorance
    that is in them, because of the blindness of their
    heart:

    Where did they get their ignorance from? (Romans 8:20) let's us know
    that God is sovereign and in His Plan for the creation He takes credit
    for blinded all of us.

    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not
    willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in
    hope

    Now God is using gentiles to make the Jews and Israelites jealous. We
    must know the Plan of God or we will be fighting against God in our on
    blindness.

    Logabe
     
  9. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    It's kinna' sad when yuh think about how for centuries now Christians have been quarreling about this concept of the 'triinity'. To many it's become near illogical at worst and irrational at best.
    Here we are in the 21st century still having to debate the merits of a doctrine first introduced by Ignatius of Antioch around year 110. If anything should be named illogical or irrational, it's this sorry state of Christianity alone!
    Ideology is by nature one of absolutes. Regrettably, risking that everyone becomes absolutely right or absolutely wrong no matter which way he should turn on this subject.

    Paul called God “the invisible God”, (Colossians 1:15), and also “the King eternal, immortal, invisible”, (1Timothy 1:17).

    The Bible pointedly states that Jesus said that "God is spirit", (John 4:24) ... in other words: a spirit being. The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit! Many Christians have some very strange ideas about what a spirit is. Nevertheless, what does the term 'spirit' REALLY mean?

    John assured us that “no man has seen God at any time”, (John 1:18). While it's true that mortal men have seen the visible manifestations which God chose to reveal Himself and to communicate with them, no one has seen Him fully in His spiritual being. Not surprisingly, there is no way they could. Spirits are invisible.

    It should be immediately obvious to everyone that a spirit is alive. Throughout Scripture our God is called the living God, (Joshua 3:10; Psalm 84:2; 1Thessalonians 1:9). Our God is alive!
    The term 'spirit' also means “breath,” and breath is the evidence of life.
    Our God is not like a pagan idol which has a mouth that cannot speak, eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, and hands that cannot accomplish anything, (Psalm 115:4-7). No, our God is not like this at all!
    Our God is alive! He lives from the beginning and through eternity already passed. Unlike the pagan gods, our God speaks, sees, hears and His hands do majestic works.

    Make no mistake! A spirit is also a person. Our God is not an impersonal force Who acts without purpose or reason. The essential nature of a personality is self-consciousness and self-determination and our God possesses both.
    Not only does God possess the basic characteristics of personality, (intellect, emotions, and will), He also thinks, He feels, and He acts. After all, this is precisely why there is an earnest invitation for every man to pursue a personal relationship with Him.

    We human beings have spirits too. God is spirit, but we too have 'human' spirits housed within our physical bodies. And when our spirits are made alive toward God through the New Birth, we have the capacity to commune with Him restored within our spirits; at anytime, anywhere, and under any circumstances.

    Communion with God does not depend on external things because it takes place internally in the spiritual part of our being ... within our invisible human spirits. Just about everyone knows that a spirit cannot be seen. So, we should not be puzzled by the fact that we cannot see the human spirit. The most intimate of friends cannot see each other’s spirit and none of us can see God.

    This was the exact point of Jesus’ comment to the woman at the well. Since God is spirit we must worship Him in spirit. Worship is not primarily a matter of physical location, surroundings, form, ritual, liturgy, or ceremony. Nor is it a matter of creating a certain kind of mood or atmosphere. It is a matter of spirit. Worship is the response of our human spirit to God’s revelation of Himself.

    Communion with God does not depend on external things because it takes place internally in the spiritual part of our being. This was exactly the point of Jesus’ comment to the woman at the well. Since God is spirit we must worship Him in spirit. Worship is not primarily a matter of physical location, surroundings, form, ritual, liturgy, or ceremony. It is a matter of spirit. Worship is the response of our spirits to God’s revelation of Himself.

    It can be difficult for many of us to grasp this truth since our spirits live in physical bodies and our physical bodies inhabit a physical universe. Our occupation with the physical makes us try to put our relationship with God into that same realm. We want to be inspired to worship Him by lavish cathedrals, great art, pleasant sounds, lovely aromas, and beautifully worded liturgies. Our human natures cry out for religious symbols, images, and pictures to help us create a mood for worship. We think we have to be in a church building and follow certain prescribed procedures. God says, “You cannot reduce me to physical things that can be experienced with your senses. I dwell in the realm of spirit and that is where I want to meet with you.” While physical things may direct our attention to God, particularly things He has made, we meet with Him in our spirits. Therefore, we can enjoy communion with God while riding to work in the car, pushing the vacuum cleaner through the living room, walking from one class to another, or anywhere else. We know Him and enjoy Him in the spiritual realm, apart from the physical senses.

    But here is where most misconceptions concerning God begin:
    While it's true what Jesus said, "God is spirit", it does not mean to say that God does not have a body.
    Spirits possess spiritual bodies ... invisible bodies.
    This is why the scriptures repeatedly refer to God as having a body. For example, it mentions His hand and His ear, (Isaiah 59:1), His eye (2Chronicles 16:9), and His mouth, (Matthew 4:4).
    While it's true that God is indeed immaterial, it does not mean to say that He does not possess an invisible spiritual body. On the contrary: God dwells in the realm of spirit with an immaterial/invisible spiritual body.

    For example, during our Bible Studies here in Toronto, Canada I have offered a conceptual picture of the so-called 'trinity' as outlined below:

    One could perhaps imagine the form/existence of God as somewhat similar to that of the jelly-fish or other such gelatinous animals which are united/formed by having bodies lacking hard skeletal components.
    Jelly-fish have a simple tissue organization, with a thin outer ectoderm and an inner endoderm layer. The ectoderm serves a protective function, while the endoderm is involved with digestion of food.
    Unlike 'normal' aquatic creatures which retain their form when out of water, a jelly-fish requires the support provided by the aqueous environment.

    Using the conceptual picture above, we could say the following:

    The Bible pointedly states that Jesus said that "God is spirit", (John 4:24) ... in other words: a spirit being having a spiritual body..

    The 'inner layer' is the being or heart of God which is surrounded by the 'outer layer', (spirit).
    The 'inner layer' of the picture is what we know as God's being/personality.
    The 'outer layer' of the picture is the immaterial/spiritual body of God ... the Holy Spirit.

    God is said to be 'spirit' because His being is shrouded/covered/encompassed by a spirit body ... which is known as the 'Holy Spirit'.

    Human beings have a similar circumstance as that of God Himself. Our invisible human spirit (our inner being/man) is
    encompassed by a veil of flesh.

    [​IMG].​
     
  10. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi MT, :)

    Why do you make the outer part the Holy Spirit, and not, as it were, God's inner man?
     
  11. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'DragonFly'
    It's nice to be chattin' wit yuh again.
    Why does the illustration have the Holy Spirit as the outer part ... and not the "inner man".?
    Well, howz 'bout I explain it this way:
    The first verse of the Bible says, "God created the heavens and the earth".
    Think about that for a second 'er two.
    When an architect decides to erect a building, he first creates a model and then the structure itself. But God, the Great Architect' did just the opposite! He created the structure first and then the model.
    That's amazing when yuh think about it, huh?
    Anyways, everything that is seen is a image of that which is unseen; everything which is visible is a model of that which is invisible. The earth is a visible image of the invisible realities.
    How do we know this? Simply because the Bible tells us, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead", (Rom 1:20).
    So, with that elevated concept in our minds, we can then approach an answer to the question you posed.

    For instance, look at the composite of an atom.
    Protons and neutrons are bundled together in the center of the atom, called the nucleus. The electrons move around the nucleus, each in its own orbit like the moon around the earth. Each atom of the same element is characterized by a certain number of protons in the nucleus. That number is called the atomic number. Normally, the atom has the same number of electrons in orbit around the nucleus. This atomic number identifies the elements. The list of elements (ranked according to an increasing number of protons) is called the Periodic.

    Now that we have that bit of divine genius half-hazardly understood, it becomes quickly evident that it's yet another image to illustrate what I presented with the jelly-fish picture.

    Look at your own being. The real YOU ... the "hidden man of the heart" dwells behind a veil of flesh. Our flesh executes that which our inner being conceives/desires ... that's the rationale of us having arms and legs and eyes and ears. We are a flesh being.
    The human being is a visible image of the invisible reality of God.
    God's identity ... His Being ... is surrounded by spirit. This spirit forms the executing exercises of God. God is a spirit being.

    Speaking about visible things revealing invisible realities ...
    The sun is an image of God while the moon is an image of Jesus Christ.
    Why is this so?
    The Sun is a visible image revealing the invisible reality that God is Light.
    The moon is visible image revealing that Jesus Christ "reflects the glory of God" (the sun), the light that shines in the dark night, (John 1:5).

    I jus' thought that I'd throw that idea into the mix to supplement the discussion here.
    Anyways, now that you know this ... you might read Acts 2:20 differently, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come".
     
  12. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi MT,

    I want to go back over all your posts, not just in this thread, but others too, and have more of a discussion with you. For now, patience please!



    Hi Butch5
    I thought logabe made a good stab at answering your question through the field being the world, and it having to be purchased in order to own the treasure. In answer to your questions about the way the Gentiles were seen by Jesus, I would point to Matthew's gospel, where he quotes Isaiah several times in respect to prophecy about the Gentiles being included. Jesus cannot have been unaware of this, since He had spoken those words to Isaiah from glory, and He knew where to find, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach ...'

    Apart from Paul's commission from the Lord when he was still in the street called Straight, Paul also quoted Isaiah when some Jews at Antioch rejected the gospel -

    Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Luke 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
    .
     
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