the importance of Postrib

[Randy Kluth]

I think there is genuine misunderstanding of the doctrine of Postribulationism. It simply means the Antichrist will come before the 2nd Coming of Christ, that Christ will come back for his Church at the same time he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Is this taught in the bible? Definitely! Despite the popularity of the Left Behind series, despite the popularity of all of the Pretrib Rapture movies, despite the statement of belief by the Assemblies of God, the Scriptures positively and explicitly teach that Christ will *not* come for his Church until *after* the Antichrist is revealed. They further declare that Christ will come in the context of *destroying the Antichrist.*

2 Thessalonians 2.1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Did you get that? Christ will *not* come to gather his Church until *after* the Man of Lawlessness is revealed. And he is the "man doomed to destruction," who the Lord, at his Coming, will destroy with the "breath of his mouth" at his coming.

I am regularly asked, Why is this important? It is often thought that a future event like Antichrist's reign has very little to do with the Church today, so why should we be concerned?

It is important because the truth about the Antichrist was intended to bring the same truth today, that the spirit of Antichrist is already with us, and many antichrists are already here! (2 Thes 2.7 and 1 John 2.18) That means that the "false Christs" and "false prophets" Jesus talked about are already with us, and we are required to expose them so that Christians are not led into false presentations of God's Kingdom. (Matt 24.4,26)

In Paul's day, some Christians had fallen into error, and were teaching a false sense of God's Kingdom, declaring it is already come. (2 Thes 2.2) So today, we have advocates of the future Kingdom who are proclaiming that we already have the power of that future Kingdom and can do anything today that we will be able to do tomorrow. Paul called this error! So did Jesus! (Matt 24.26 and 2 Thes 2.2)

Political systems and religious systems alike compete with the true Kingdom of God, which remains in heaven. They attempt to present a false sense of God's Kingdom on earth today, thereby leading men to follow their leaders, and not God's word. Dan 2.44) And so, it is incumbent upon us to recognize that as Paul said, the spirit of Antichrist precedes the 2nd Coming of Christ. And as John taught, "as you have heard the Antichrist is coming, so already there are many antichrists."

Many people, including John N. Darby, who invented Pretrib Doctrine, thought Christ had to precede the end of the age because they thought we are to expect that Christ can come "on any day." That is not actually taught in the Bible. We were told to be continually alert to deceptions so that we keep hold of our righteousness. We are not to mix in with the sins of the world. How can we do that if we don't even recognize the sins of the world?

Many Christians today are showing that they aren't much of a Christian, because they are following the corrupt world into its sinful practices. Christians are compromising by believing in the tolerance of sin that the world believes in.

The Church has always taught that we should always be ready for Christ's Coming. But it has not always taught to expect that Christ could come at any moment. Rather, the preparation we are to engage in to be ready for Christ's coming is simply being righteous always, rather than trying to guess what day he will come. We are simply to know that deception will precede that day so that we know our job is to be ready to resist lies in the world. Never has that job been more important than today!

 

[Enoch111]

I think there is genuine misunderstanding of the doctrine of Postribulationism. It simply means the Antichrist will come before the 2nd Coming of Christ, that Christ will come back for his Church at the same time he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Is this taught in the bible? Definitely!

DEFINITELY NOT!

Here is the biblical sequence of events and as Jesus says "whoso readeth, let him understand":

1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The coming of the Antichrist
3. The Tribulation Period
4. The Abomination of Desolation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. Cataclysmic cosmic events
7. The Second Coming of Christ to earth.

 

[Jay Ross]

DEFINITELY NOT!

Here is the biblical sequence of events and as Jesus says "whoso readeth, let him understand":

1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The coming of the Antichrist
3. The Tribulation Period
4. The Abomination of Desolation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. Cataclysmic cosmic events
7. The Second Coming of Christ to earth.

Are you so sure of your facts? Please set out the scriptural basis for your above seven points to justify your claims.

Shalom

 

[Timtofly]

DEFINITELY NOT!

Here is the biblical sequence of events and as Jesus says "whoso readeth, let him understand":

1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The coming of the Antichrist
3. The Tribulation Period
4. The Abomination of Desolation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. Cataclysmic cosmic events
7. The Second Coming of Christ to earth.

1. The opening of the seals.
2. All will realize that Satan has been deceiving the world for 2500 years.
3. The Lamb and 144K will reap the harvest of the goats and the sheep.
4. The harvest of the wheat and tares.
5. The week of the Second Coming starting on Sunday April 2nd 2023AD.
6. Wednesday Satan will get his 3.5 years (The Great Tribulation), if any one is left after the first 3 harvests of the church, sheep, and wheat.
7. Sunday, the 8th day, battle of Armageddon.
8. Monday starts the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Does John use the word tribulation? It is a time of judgment and harvest. Yes there will be lots of trouble and suffering. It will not be fun for any one on earth. That is why the elect asked God to shorten the time of Jacob's trouble. God took away 3.5 years. The church herself can repent and ask God to heal the nations. Then Satan will not get his 3.5 years. It will all be over in April of 2023AD.

 

[Randy Kluth]

DEFINITELY NOT!

Here is the biblical sequence of events and as Jesus says "whoso readeth, let him understand":

1. The Resurrection/Rapture
2. The coming of the Antichrist
3. The Tribulation Period
4. The Abomination of Desolation
5. The Great Tribulation
6. Cataclysmic cosmic events
7. The Second Coming of Christ to earth.

I notice you use visions and symbolism as an excuse to fit them in any order you please. This is why I believe the Holy Spirit gives explicit theology to make doctrine--not parables. But you've completely ignored the *doctrine* in 2 Thes 2. You replace explicit biblical theology with your own subjective application of parables, symbols, and visions.

Revelation tells you not to tamper with the words. That would include trying to make subjective visions into theology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The spirit of Antichrist is pervading our world. The spirit of lawlessness is permeating our society. This is why we were told not to be deceived, but to recognize that antichristian deception comes 1st, before the advent of Christ.

If we want to be prepared for judgment at the coming of Christ, we have to navigate through the errors 1st. That's why I'm so concerned today about our eschatology. Christians are into pop eschatology, which turns Bible Prophecy more into a fantasy than an historical reality.

Today I'm seeing the collapse of Christian civilization, as Muslims, gays, and Communists are being invited into formerly Christian societies. And we wonder why our country is going to the dogs! (I refer to their "paganism," rather than insult them personally.)

If Christians are going to continue to establish a Christian testimony, we're going to have to get back on board true Christian prophecy.. Jesus said the deceptions of AntiChristianity *precede* the coming of the Lord, and are already present in our own day.

And as we get closer to the coming of Christ, expect that the deceptions will get stronger, more dangerous, and more insidious.

2 Thes 2.7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work.

1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.

Please don't think this is all about watching Sci Fi films and guessing what "666" means and who the Antichrist will be! No, this is deadly serious. Jesus warned his disciples not to be fooled by the Jewish culture of their day, which was terribly backslidden. And he would warn us about our own day, not to be fooled by our compromising, backslidden post-Christian society.

Matt 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

2 Thes 2.Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

This is about false political and religious beliefs in our day--the whole spectrum of error in our current world. We have false political philosophies like socialism, which depend on the strength of human leadership, and not on personal responsibility. And in its political elitism it cynically treats people like animals to be coddled with the false promises of racial and gender rights, as well as the false promises of a cut on the salaries of the wealthy.

We also have false religious beliefs, like Liberal Christianity, which distrusts the Bible, and capitulates to the mores and values of the pagan world. And we have other religions, as well, like Buddhism and Hinduism. These do not embrace Christian standards, and fall far short of the true hope Christ would bring us.

We also have the Christian cults like Mormonism and JWs, which displace true Christian spirituality for some kind of false spiritual elitism, papered over with the mere appearance of Christian doctrine. And in our fallen society, we have lost the sense of true internal redemption, and no longer believe people can be truly good. And so, as Christians cave more and more to the world about them, we have immorality among our Christian friends, and excessive tolerance for sin and worldliness in our churches.

If we don't see these things, and repent of them, we will not be ready for the Coming of the Lord. We may lose all that we would contribute towards the building up of Christ's Kingdom. Potential converts may not respect our witness, and lose their own chance of enjoying the Lord's presence in their lives today!

While God is tolerating paganism, in order to give pagans an opportunity to repent, we will have to suffer through these traps and pitfalls. We need to stay alert, and keep watch, as Jesus said. Be cautious and be strong. To think these things are questionable and pass them off as "controversial" is to fall into the Devil's trap. Read and believe, brother and sister! Serve God, and not men! Don't be afraid of controversy. Jesus came not to bring peace, but a sword!

 

[Enoch111]

I notice you use visions and symbolism as an excuse to fit them in any order you please.

No. I take the visions as prophecies of actual events to come in the future. As for symbolism, almost every symbol is explained in the Bible, and if it is REAL then it is not a symbol. I take Scripture in its plain literal sense unless there is a compelling reason to see a metaphor or symbol presented. I would say that 99% of the Bible is to be interpreted that way.

But Post-Tribulationism deliberately misinterprets and violates Scripture. According to Got Questions:

"Posttribulationism teaches that the Rapture occurs at the end, or near the end, of the Tribulation. At that time, the church will meet Christ in the air and then return to earth for the commencement of Christ’s Kingdom on earth. In other words, the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming (to set up His Kingdom) happen almost simultaneously. According to this view, the church goes through the entire seven-year Tribulation. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, and many Protestant denominations espouse a posttribulational view of the Rapture."

 

[Enoch111]

Are you so sure of your facts? Please set out the scriptural basis for your above seven points to justify your claims.

All we need to do is to see that according to Christ Himself, the Rapture would always be IMMINENT and not connected to the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, or the Second Coming.

JOHN 14: 1-3:
I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This ties in with the following statements of Christ:
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42)
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:1,13)

In contrast, the Second Coming of Christ will be KNOWN AND VISIBLE to the whole world before He arrives on earth.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk 13:26)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk 21:27)

Post-tribulationists completely ignore the fact that at the Second Coming of Christ, He comes WITH all His saints and angels, and in order to do so they would already have been raptured and in Heaven. Therefore no one can confuse the Resurrection/Rapture with the Second Coming.

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING WITH ALL THE SAINTS
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

JUDE 1: THE SECOND COMING WITH ALL THE SAINTS
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. I take the visions as prophecies of actual events to come in the future. As for symbolism, almost every symbol is explained in the Bible, and if it is REAL then it is not a symbol. I take Scripture in its plain literal sense unless there is a compelling reason to see a metaphor or symbol presented. I would say that 99% of the Bible is to be interpreted that way.

But Post-Tribulationism deliberately misinterprets and violates Scripture. According to Got Questions:

"Posttribulationism teaches that the Rapture occurs at the end, or near the end, of the Tribulation. At that time, the church will meet Christ in the air and then return to earth for the commencement of Christ’s Kingdom on earth. In other words, the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming (to set up His Kingdom) happen almost simultaneously. According to this view, the church goes through the entire seven-year Tribulation. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, and many Protestant denominations espouse a posttribulational view of the Rapture."

Got Questions has it wrong. Postrib does not always believe in a "7 year Tribulation," or in a 7 year Reign of Antichrist. But your seeming claim that Got Questions indicates Postrib "misinterprets and violates Scripture" is not stated as such. It simply represents what it believes to be the standard Postrib position.

Therefore, your claim that Postrib "violates Scriptures" is your own claim, and unsubstantiated. Studied Christians would recognize that Postrib is the standard eschatology in Church history--not Pretrib, which only has a history of a couple of hundred years. And it certainly does not hold a monopoly on today's Church.

Postrib plainly states that the 2nd Coming, or the Coming of Christ for his Church, takes place after 1) the revelation of Antichrist, and 2) at the very destruction of the Antichrist. This is the *explicit theology* of Paul in 2 Thes 2.

Your effort to prove Pretrib from symbolism is purely subjective, and without explicit theology to defend your position, has no basis. Sorry, you are adding to Scripture that which is *not* there!

 

[Jay Ross]

Post-tribulationists completely ignore the fact that at the Second Coming of Christ, He comes WITH all His saints and angels, and in order to do so they would already have been raptured and in Heaven. Therefore no one can confuse the Resurrection/Rapture with the Second Coming.

Your statement here is your hypothesis as to how this will occur, by making a claim that is not support by the passage that you have quoted.

It does not gel with this passage by Paul: -

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: - The Comfort of Christ's Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Your understanding is based on a flawed understanding that the saints will be spared the time of the Tribulation by being whisked away from harms way and not be refined by the consuming fire of refinement.

It sounds very much like you want God's promises on your terms and not on God's terms as described within the Holy Texts.

Sounds very much like your bad.

 

[Timtofly]

Your statement here is your hypothesis as to how this will occur, by making a claim that is not support by the passage that you have quoted.

It does not gel with this passage by Paul: -

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: - The Comfort of Christ's Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Your understanding is based on a flawed understanding that the saints will be spared the time of the Tribulation by being whisked away from harms way and not be refined by the consuming fire of refinement.

It sounds very much like you want God's promises on your terms and not on God's terms as described within the Holy Texts.

Sounds very much like your bad.

Seal 6 in Revelation 6 has both God on the throne and the Lamb. Is this the Second Coming even before the Trumpets and Thunderings? If Paul says it is the first coming, then the Second Coming itself happens before the Tribulation acording to Revelation 6.

The tribulation is a harvest. Paul's rapture is a harvest. People dying by the billions is a harvest. Satan told the RCC that he comes before God. That is the lie the orthodox and protestants kept from the RCC. Funny that Satan's lie, is now, "the church is just going to get whisked away". Really??

So God is not going to harvest the world, just because Satan says so??

At the end of the seals the church is done. Their work is finished. They cannot do anything any more, except what Revelation 7 claims. Then God harvests all those Jews alive on earth that accept Christ and a few more billion people die. Then Israel is done, harvested all, the sheep and goats put in their pens. No more sheep and goats. They are whisked away as you put it.

Then the Nations themselves, Babylon faces God. The wheat and tares. All those here who willed to stay to the very end. The wheat is harvested and put in the barn. Rats, the church got to go to the temple. The tares are burned up in fire. Who is left is the billion dollar question. The 8 day celebration starts. Jesus is all set to rule for 1000 years. Wait!!!! Armageddon we cannot forget that on the final Sunday any left will want to fight in the battle of Armageddon. Wait the rapture happens after the battle of Armageddon? You mean the church that has been in the temple since Revelation 7, is allegedly where in the battle of Armageddon? Suddenly we have more tares to destroy at Megiddo, and some even want the church to be hiding out in a cave somewhere. People really do not like to be harvested.

Wait wait wait!!! Someone forgot to let Satan have his Wednesday party in the middle of the celebration week. We really should let Satan make a mess of things for 3.5 years. The church taught us for thousands of years that we need to give Satan his dues. He really did a bang up job of destroying Adam's world and all of Adam's descendants. Might as well let him and us persevere for at least 3.5 years, right?

 

[Randy Kluth]

All we need to do is to see that according to Christ Himself, the Rapture would always be IMMINENT and not connected to the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, or the Second Coming.

Nowhere in the Scriptures is Jesus' coming for the Church described as "imminent" in the sense that he may come any day, or before the Reign of Antichrist. Nowhere!

But you're right in this, that Jesus' Coming is always described as "soon"--not as "at any minute," but as "soon" in the sense that relative to his death and resurrection it means that judgment is only being delayed by the Lord's patience, in the hope that men will repent.

God has been continuing with His original plan, to fill the earth, and to evangelize it, but judgment has already begun to fall. This means that final judgment just depends on how long God wants to wait, on how long it takes for men to become despicably corrupt throughout the world, including in former Christian territories.

In this sense, and in this sense alone, is Jesus' coming depicted as being "soon." Nowhere are we told that he could come "at any moment." Nowhere are we told there is more than one 2nd Coming, a Rapture of the Church first, and then the 2nd Coming with the Church.

JOHN 14: 1-3:
I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This ties in with the following statements of Christ:
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42)
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:1,13)

The suddenness of Christ's coming is always linked to the lack of preparedness by unbelievers, by wicked men who do not believe they will be judged for their evil deeds. It has nothing to do with the notion Christ will come back "at any moment."

In contrast, the Second Coming of Christ will be KNOWN AND VISIBLE to the whole world before He arrives on earth.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk 13:26)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk 21:27)

Christ warned his disciples not to expect any eschatological "Coming" before this universal revelation of the Son of Man. His Coming like lightnng from East to West *is* the only 2nd Coming he told his disciples to watch for. Anything before that is to be rejected as a lying deception. And you are falling for that!

Post-tribulationists completely ignore the fact that at the Second Coming of Christ, He comes WITH all His saints and angels, and in order to do so they would already have been raptured and in Heaven. Therefore no one can confuse the Resurrection/Rapture with the Second Coming.

No, the Rapture of the Church will take place in a split second, in which we who remain alive will be caught up instantly to be transformed into the glory Christ promised us. Then we shall all be revealed together on earth in some sense. It does not require a two-stage process. That is just your logical thinking--not Bible.

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING WITH ALL THE SAINTS

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

JUDE 1: THE SECOND COMING WITH ALL THE SAINTS
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Enoch111]

Nowhere in the Scriptures is Jesus' coming for the Church described as "imminent" in the sense that he may come any day, or before the Reign of Antichrist. Nowhere!

That's because you choose to be wilfully blind. The apostles expected the coming of Christ for His saints in their lifetimes as we see in the New Testament (but it was not to be since the fulness of the Gentiles must first come into the Church, and only God knows the full number).

So now you have just two options: (1) totally abandon your nonsensical eschatology and start LEARNING the truth or (2) double down and go into more darkness and false beliefs.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's because you choose to be wilfully blind. The apostles expected the coming of Christ for His saints in their lifetimes as we see in the New Testament (but it was not to be since the fulness of the Gentiles must first come into the Church, and only God knows the full number).

So now you have just two options: (1) totally abandon your nonsensical eschatology and start LEARNING the truth or (2) double down and go into more darkness and false beliefs.

Before you accuse me of being "willfully blind" you should provide your references. That's called in any place a "cheap shot." What, you make a point about my not being clear and yet you provide no backup evidence whatsoever?

So, what am I being "willfully blind" about? What Scriptures am I ignoring? I told you, in defense, that the "soon" coming of Jesus is given in the sense that Jesus has already died and risen. Judgment is imminent. And yet judgment is partly deferred.

So Christ's Coming is "soon," and yet was a long ways off, as even the parable Jesus told in which the master was a "long ways off," or a "long time coming." He is soon in the sense that judgment is already falling upon sinners. But the coming of the Kingdom we are told must follow the outworking of this entire age.

To think the disciples thought this would be imminent is unbelievable! Jesus had told them, in his Olivet Discourse, that the Jews would see the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans, leading to an age-long dispersion. How on earth could the disciples have thought the dispersion would end imminently even when it had not yet begun?

Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[marks]

Did you get that? Christ will *not* come to gather his Church until *after* the Man of Lawlessness is revealed. And he is the "man doomed to destruction," who the Lord, at his Coming, will destroy with the "breath of his mouth" at his coming.

That's not actually what it says.

2 Thessalonians 2.1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rapture

Day of the Lord

If they were "post trib", then WHY be troubled concerning the rapture? You'd just know it was closer.

If they were "pre-trib", then telling them it was the Day of the LORD would be very troubling indeed!

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's not actually what it says.

Actually, that is *exactly* what it says!

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you... Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Here is says 2 things:
1) We are gathered to Christ on the day Christ returns. And that day must be *preceded by* the revelation of the Man of Lawlessness.
2) The Coming of Christ is the occasion for the "doom," or destruction, of the Antichrist.

Again, Paul repeats that it is the coming of Christ that literally brings about Antichrist's destruction....

2 Thes 2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It's sad, but this is how, I believe, it was read for 1800 years until John Nelson Darby confused it by introducing theories that ended up in hopeless contradictions.

Rapture
Day of the Lord
If they were "post trib", then WHY be troubled concerning the rapture? You'd just know it was closer.
If they were "pre-trib", then telling them it was the Day of the LORD would be very troubling indeed!
Much love!

I was thrown off by this too, because my early years of discipleship was marked by Pretrib Teaching. And one simply cannot understand this with Pretrib Teaching in mind! So let me try to explain it, because the reality of it is very different from how we were taught.

This "concern" was in all actuality very related to Jesus' concern when he warned his disciples, in the Olivet Discourse, to not follow those who claimed to represent Christ's coming Kingdom in the wilderness or in the courts.

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

Here, Jesus is saying that God in the wilderness, as in Sinai, or God in the inner rooms, as in the temple, are false representations of God if they do not represent the eschatological judgment of God upon the earth. In Dan 7, the Son of Man is portrayed as coming in judgment, after holding court in heaven. And he comes both to destroy the Antichrist and to set up God's Kingdom simultaneously.

We are *not* to be fooled by any false representations of God or His Kingdom in the present wicked age, because this age is characterized by false prophets who pretend to have a system that bypasses judgment against sin. Whether political system or religious system, if it does not end the age and destroy sin among the kingdoms of the earth, it is *not* Messiah.

We have cults, and political movements, that misrepresent the righteousness of Christ. We need to remain allied with Christ in Spirit, exposing these errors, so that we are not carried away by God's judgment against the wicked. All false systems justify sin and focus away from our need for an intimate, obedient relationship with Christ.

The place where vultures gather indicate a place where God inflicts judgment upon the world. Both the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and Armageddon are depicted as a place where these birds gather. Jesus' Coming will be a universal revelation, and a judgment on earth, enabling his Kingdom to take the place of the rebellious kingdoms of men.

The Thessalonians were concerned because they were being fooled by some kind of Christian cult that claimed to be bringing in the Kingdom of Christ. It is the equivalent of today's Kingdom Now movement, in some respects.

I'm a big believer in Faith, but I don't want this to be confused with "Faith Doctrine." I've noticed that Faith Doctrine incorporates beliefs that claim we can have *today* what has only been promised "tomorrow" in the Scriptures. We cannot, for example, enjoy resurrection "health" now, while we are still on this side of the resurrection!

On the other hand, as George Eldon Ladd pointed out, there are some things about the Future Kingdom that we can indeed experience now, including Salvation. We already have a down payment on our future Salvation! We simply should not confuse the impact of the Kingdom being "near us" from what happens when the Kingdom actually arrives. We may experience Christ now, through his Spirit. But until we are actually joined together with Christ, there are some things that we simply cannot have yet!

 

[marks]

Actually, that is *exactly* what it says!

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you... Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Here is says 2 things:
1) We are gathered to Christ on the day Christ returns. And that day must be *preceded by* the revelation of the Man of Lawlessness.
2) The Coming of Christ is the occasion for the "doom," or destruction, of the Antichrist.

I get the feeling you didn't read my post.

And you aren't quoting the passage right. You are talking two verses out of their context and pairing them together, when that's not how it reads.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What God asks them is to not be shaken, or troubled, by anyone saying the day of Christ (or day of the Lord, depending on MS) is here.

So . . . what would be troubling to them about those saying it was the Day of the Lord, or The day of Christ? That this "day" has arrived? Why would that shake them, or trouble them, especially in light of our being gathered together to Jesus?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's sad, but this is how, I believe, it was read for 1800 years until John Nelson Darby confused it by introducing theories that ended up in hopeless contradictions.

Why is what sad?

And what are Darby's hopeless contradictions? I don't know that much about his views.

I was thrown off by this too, because my early years of discipleship was marked by Pretrib Teaching. And one simply cannot understand this with Pretrib Teaching in mind! So let me try to explain it, because the reality of it is very different from how we were taught.

Maybe we come at Scripture differently. Anytime you have anything in mind that prevents you from simply taking in the words of Scripture, I think this is a problem.

There seem to be many people who have some overall idea - I guess what they call a "systematic theology"? - of what the Bible is saying, and then go and morph any number of verses into some other shape to fit their ideas.

I don't do that.

And why not spend a little time getting to know my views before just presuming I'm parroting something I was taught? Not to mention you don't actually know how I was taught.

But there's nothing to get thrown by here, it's simply how the text reads.

The Thessalonians were concerned because they were being fooled by some kind of Christian cult that claimed to be bringing in the Kingdom of Christ. It is the equivalent of today's Kingdom Now movement, in some respects.

How so, and where do you find that in the Bible?

Having just written to them about both the rapture, and the day of the Lord, how exactly do you see it speaking of something else?

Because Jesus prophesied false Christs, therefore, that's what this "day of Christ" being referred to was? I don't see that anywhere in this letter.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I get the feeling you didn't read my post.

And you aren't quoting the passage right. You are talking two verses out of their context and pairing them together, when that's not how it reads.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What God asks them is to not be shaken, or troubled, by anyone saying the day of Christ (or day of the Lord, depending on MS) is here.

So . . . what would be troubling to them about those saying it was the Day of the Lord, or The day of Christ? That this "day" has arrived? Why would that shake them, or trouble them, especially in light of our being gathered together to Jesus?

Much love!

Yea, rest assured I did read your message--more than once. I did get the feeling I wasn't getting through, or saying it in such a way that you would understand. Let me try again. It is a different way of looking at it than the way we are told to look at it today. But it is, I think, the correct way.

The problem is that Christians can be deceived, and begin to propagate a false version of the Kingdom of Christ. For example, JWs have propagated that they are some kind of Kingdom movement, anticipating Christ's coming in conjunction with their own cult. 7th Day Adventists followed in the aftermath of the Millerites, who also anticipated Christ's coming in conjunction with their own prophetic movement.

Today, we have Faith Doctrine, which believes we can incorporate healing properties reserved for the resurrection. The Kingdom Now movement believes it will bring in the Kingdom of God. Do you understand where I'm going with this?

This are all examples of movements that tried to do what Paul warned about, proclaim themselves an eschatological movement when Jesus warned that he would only come as a universal revelation and in the context of judging the world. Jesus said he would only come as lightning, shining from east to west, and not in some secret elitist movement in the wilderness or in secret chambers. Instead, we are to keep watch in view of the fact Christ will not come unless AntiChristianity precedes that event. We are therefore exhorted to "keep watch."

The danger in ignoring this order is that if all we do is look for Christ's coming, we will end up in the field of prognostication--something we were warned not to do in Acts.

Acts 1.11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

So, if we are not to stare up to heaven, wondering when Jesus will return, trying to predict what events will forecast when he will come, we will see that our duty is to not fall for the deceptions that characterize the present age, whether political or religious. If we fail to see the error in the systems around us, we may let it get into our souls and our minds, causing us to mix with the world and fall into worldliness and sin. Being "ready" for his coming is not a matter of anticipating the date of his return. Rather, it is a matter of remaining holy, and not capitulating to temptations.

If you can follow me, the real danger Paul drew attention to was the dangers in false eschatological movements within the church. The churches can be deceived and begin to obscure the deceptions which, if not exposed, can contaminate us and make us not ready for the Kingdom of God. We are to expect to have to face Antichristianity in the present age, along with false presentations of the Kingdom prior to the actual eschaton.

Sigh--I guess there's no easy way for me to say it!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why is what sad?
And what are Darby's hopeless contradictions? I don't know that much about his views.

For example, the 1st few verses of 2 Thes 2 state, matter of fact, that Christ cannot come for the Church until *after* the revelation of Antichrist, specifically in the context of Antichrist's destruction. This is clearly derived from Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from the clouds of heaven, determining to judge the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom on the earth.

Darby is in a hopeless contradiction by suggesting that "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, along with the Church, who will be caught up to heaven before the revelation of the Antichrist. This is a complete contradiction of what had just been said by Paul, namely that the church could *not* be gathered before the revelation of the Antichrist!

Maybe we come at Scripture differently. Anytime you have anything in mind that prevents you from simply taking in the words of Scripture, I think this is a problem.

That's not my problem here. I'm taking the words as they are. Context determines how words are used, and misunderstanding comes from failing to understand the context. It's the context that we're trying to look at here.

There seem to be many people who have some overall idea - I guess what they call a "systematic theology"? - of what the Bible is saying, and then go and morph any number of verses into some other shape to fit their ideas.

I don't do that.

Not the point. Systematic Theology is fine within limits, as you said. For example, Christology and Trinitarianism are examples of systematic theology. But they have to be understood to be employed as a logical system.

And why not spend a little time getting to know my views before just presuming I'm parroting something I was taught? Not to mention you don't actually know how I was taught.

But there's nothing to get thrown by here, it's simply how the text reads.

I don't know you from Adam. This is how I get to know you, by examining what you say, and understanding it properly or not, by agreeing or disagreeing. Sorry you're offended. Maybe we can improve that over time?

How so, and where do you find that in the Bible?

Having just written to them about both the rapture, and the day of the Lord, how exactly do you see it speaking of something else?

Because Jesus prophesied false Christs, therefore, that's what this "day of Christ" being referred to was? I don't see that anywhere in this letter.

Much love!

If you connect Jesus' warning about antichrists and false prophets preceding his Coming you will understand that Paul was concerned about the exact same thing, only as it was actually happening among his churches. There were Christians claiming to be a "Move of God" in an eschatological sense, ie as if they were actually bringing in the Kingdom of God by their teaching and evangelization.

I can understand this by observing and reading about the various Millennial movements that have happened in history, which sidetracked Christians. It is a distraction if we think we're entering into heaven imminently, as opposed to settling down to preach the gospel and avoid the errors of our times.

We get ready for the Kingdom not by imminent expectation but rather by taking warning of a soon judgment and preparing by keeping our lives clean. We focus not just on the fact Christ is coming soon, but we stay alert by avoiding the antichristian deceptions that *precede* his Coming!