The Influence of Islam on Christendom

[Episkopos]

Now I think we all realize that Islam is a totalitarian system. I don't say just religion since Islam covers a lot more than just religious ideas. Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

On a religious level...the world is seen by these as either being in submission to God (as in Islam) or else to be seen as an infidel. Fidelity is seen as being embodied only in exclusivity to it's own worldview. All else is to be converted or destroyed. This is totalitarianism in a nutshell.

Judaism on the other hand is a two tiered religion. There is the holy nation...and they who are the righteous among the nations. We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness. And besides the Jews see their nation as the light to the other nations. Jews do NOT impose the weight of the 613 laws of Judaism on non-Jews. That is both the prerogative and responsibility that goes with being a Jew in the world.

So then Judaism is NOT totalitarian in it's out look.

So which world-view have we adopted in modern Christendom?

The totalitarian one.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So which world-view have we adopted in modern Christendom?

The totalitarian one.

I believe Catholicism and those denominations that ascribe to Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology would be totalitarian, yes. And I believe denominations that hammer away at the importance of gaining political influence would to some extent as well. I'm not sure more spiritually-oriented congregations would, however, as I would think more spiritually-oriented congregations, denomination etc. would be less concerned with enforcing "Christianity" from without as trying to impart Christianity from within.

 

[Episkopos]

Now both political extremes are totalitarian in nature...they being fascism and communism. We know that communism had as it's ultimate goal...to make the whole world communist. (very similar to Islam that way)

We see the Chinese government, a totalitarian communist regime at that...that has loosened it's grip on the financial sector allowing for a free market economy. And this goes to show us that people do not function well when all freedom is taken away from them. But this in no way has lent itself to the same consideration when other ideologies or religions are concerned. Communism IS seen as the state religion because it is totalitarian. But let's move on from here.

Totalitarianism means a universal law imposed on all men within it's sphere of power or influence. ...with dire consequences for all who would resist that homogenizing force. This pressure is exerted by a regime that has embraced the ideology and is prepared to back it with force. Need I say that all such totalitarian exertions have the devil as it the root of it?

So why and how did this kind of worldview...this totalitarian inflexibility.. become the status quo in a religion that teaches love, joy and peace in the world?

 

[Episkopos]

I believe Catholicism and those denominations that ascribe to Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology would be totalitarian, yes. And I believe denominations that hammer away at the importance of gaining political influence would to some extent as well. I'm not sure more spiritually-oriented congregations would, however, as I would think more spiritually-oriented congregations, denomination etc. would be less concerned with enforcing "Christianity" from without as trying to impart Christianity from within.

I'm drawing a distinction here between Judaic thought and Islamic thought . At one point Islam was the great rival to Christianity (which it still is). And the churches sought to fight fire with fire. They decided to fight one kind of totalitarian doctrine with another one.

It has often happened that Christianity was esteemed as weak and permissive of tyranny and brutality in it's effort to forgive and turn the other cheek. They saw the teachings of Jesus as impractical and too idealistic for actual application in the world. The spiritual kind of revolution was seen as insufficient to combat evil in the real world of earthly dominion and conquest. We need only look at the Crusades to see the influence of Islam on the church.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

“You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 26 But among you it will be different.

 

[Episkopos]

If we are truly free and know how to think...we see we have a choice between 2 worldviews...the Judaic (salvation is of the Jews)...or else the Islamic view (become like us or die).

Since the beginning of the worldly challenge to the truth which is in Christ...we have opted for less and less freedom. We have opted for rigidity in the quest for a permanency of our structures. We look more and more to ourselves and our ways...to combat the devil and His ways...by comparing what we think is pragmatic and temporarily beneficial...instead of relying on God.

True Christianity comes from Judaic thought...not, unsurprisingly, from Islamic thought. But we don't think like Jews. We think as non-Jews. We have been radicalized like Muslims. But it is not for nothing that the bible was written by Jews. The Hebraic thought going into the writings was a given...a self-evident truth...at least back in the days before Islam came on the scene to challenge the church as to who it would depend on.

The church is also to be a two tiered system..as in Judaism. This once was subverted into the clergy/laity split. But that is a false dichotomy. The church is called to be a holy people...just as the Jews were called in their day. To be a light to the world. Not a condemnation to the world. But the modern church has rejected that holy calling...instead making a universal totalitarian effort that seeks to make all men the same...upon penalty of being sent to hell.

 

[Episkopos]

“You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 26 But among you it will be different.

What I mean to show is that the very doctrines taught by the modern church deny the freedom that Jesus came to bring...and that the rulers in the church have opted for a more Islamic worldview..a totalitarian worldview...that says become like us or die.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What I mean to show is that the very doctrines taught by the modern church deny the freedom that Jesus came to bring...and that the rulers in the church have opted for a more Islamic worldview..a totalitarian worldview...that says become like us or die.

Yes, I totally got that! Verse 25 is that totalitarian worldview (leaders lording it over subjects). and it smacks of: but no, we want a king over us like the nations around us!

 

[amadeus]

It is a good idea on a public forum to let people know where the verses cited are located:

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"
Matt 20:25-27

 

[amadeus]

Yes, I totally got that! Verse 25 is that totalitarian worldview (leaders lording it over subjects). and it smacks of: but no, we want a king over us like the nations around us!

O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath." Hosea 13:9-11

 

[Episkopos]

So how did we go from a Judaic worldview to an Islamic one? We know why. It was deemed as a necessary evil for the sake of survival (but survival of what?). How we did it is how we subvert any truth we encounter in the bible. We do it by twisting the meaning of the bible to support our strategy...fully ignoring God's will and design. And we are happy to do this. It stems from the decision to eat from the wrong tree.

So if we take a text like...no one comes to the Father but by Me...we take that to mean that no one can be saved unless you become like me. Jesus Christ Himself is fully out of the picture at that point. And if He is invoked it is through the exclusivity of whatever doctrinal lens the church decides. Jesus then is seen as being the totalitarian one...making all men go through Him to God. But that is OUR imposition on the text...not His. Jesus is not trying to make a totalitarian regime of the church...but a living witness to what it means to be in fellowship with God...a light to the world as an example for all to see. He is simply stating the truth that Jesus (Himself) is the only way to God. This message is for they who would sacrifice themselves...not sacrifice others in a self-satisfaction of religious fundamentalism. So people get Jesus exactly wrong.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But who gives honor to a man who serves others and puts their interests first and their good first? God will honor the man, but men dont esteem what God esteems. They think the man is too weak to be over them and will not submit to him. In this way, true kings appear as paupers and little children appear as kings to men.

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" So this can be read sort of backwards too - and whoever is your servant, let him be chief/esteemed among you.

 

[Episkopos]

True Christianity is Judaic in nature...not Islamic. It is a two-tired message that includes a universal righteousness AND an exclusive holiness.

Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world. Not just for believers. This is universal and shows that God is NOT totalitarian in His ways. God is NOT like the devil or like us (who follow the ways of the devil even while we claim to be believers).

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Indoctrinated people can't comprehend or are dishonest about the bolded part of the statement. Here is another statement like this one.

1 Tim. 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

...not exclusively. So then the exclusive group who walk in Christ are ESPECIALLY saved...abundantly saved. But the righteous are also saved...but scarcely so. Of course the saints are abundantly saved.

1 Pet. 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?



The church is an exclusive group...the modern Israel of God....with the same calling as the Israel of old. The saints are the people of God, irregardless of nation or tongue. It is by the election of God by faith. It is by a spiritual rebirth from above. The narrow way is not for everyone. People can't be forced down the narrow way on pain of eternal torment. To think like that is to be an Islamist. A totalitarian thinker who brings evil into the world. Again ALL totalitarian ideologies are from the devil. But can the message of Jesus be twisted so out of shape as to be used by the devil?

Yes.

 

[Nancy]

Now I think we all realize that Islam is a totalitarian system. I don't say just religion since Islam covers a lot more than just religious ideas. Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

On a religious level...the world is seen by these as either being in submission to God (as in Islam) or else to be seen as an infidel. Fidelity is seen as being embodied only in exclusivity to it's own worldview. All else is to be converted or destroyed. This is totalitarianism in a nutshell.

Judaism on the other hand is a two tiered religion. There is the holy nation...and they who are the righteous among the nations. We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness. And besides the Jews see their nation as the light to the other nations. Jews do NOT impose the weight of the 613 laws of Judaism on non-Jews. That is both the prerogative and responsibility that goes with being a Jew in the world.

So then Judaism is NOT totalitarian in it's out look.

So which world-view have we adopted in modern Christendom?

The totalitarian one.

"The totalitarian one."
For sure...for the large majority, it's all or nothing...toe their line or bust... Even politics has been playing a huge role in Church's...no different than Sharia law to me.
"We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness."

Did not know that. I know the "Noahide laws" are from the Talmud which, I don't see as part of the OT. Not well versed enough here Epi!! lol.
And, is it a bloodline thing as to why Jews dissuade conversion?

 

[Episkopos]

"The totalitarian one."
For sure...for the large majority, it's all or nothing...toe their line or bust... Even politics has been playing a huge role in Church's...no different than Sharia law to me.
"We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness."

Did not know that. I know the "Noahide laws" are from the Talmud which, I don't see as part of the OT. Not well versed enough here Epi!! lol.
And, is it a bloodline thing as to why Jews dissuade conversion?

Partly. But also to become a Jew is a very big commitment. They want you to REALLY count the cost. Just as Jesus said His followers should. So we also should try dissuading people from following holiness...UNTIL they also count the cost.

So it isn't a question of they NOT wanting a convert...they just want real converts. I think this is a much better policy regarding a calling to holiness.

 

[amadeus]

@Episkopos
I suspect that not many here will understand what you are saying... much less agree! But for the sake of the few, please continue!

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos
I suspect that not many here will understand what you are saying... much less agree! But for the sake of the few, please continue!

Thanks John. I think that the door to "heaven" has been made to be so wide that people try entering into life without thinking of what it really means. They don't see the cost or the risk. They have been induced through mass hypnosis into believing they are somehow "in" Christ by reciting a glib formula to that effect. So there is no understanding at all of spiritual things....or even human things for that matter.

I mean to show that we are inheriting a religious system that men long ago felt compelled to create as a survival tool against the clear and present danger of Islam.

We are supposed to fight evil with good. But that was seen by them as the way of failure. They did not opt for faith in Christ. No, they opted for equality with Islam.

 

[amadeus]

@Episkopos @Nancy

Nancy said:

The totalitarian one."
For sure...for the large majority, it's all or nothing...toe their line or bust... Even politics has been playing a huge role in Church's...no different than Sharia law to me.
"We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness."

Did not know that. I know the "Noahide laws" are from the Talmud which, I don't see as part of the OT. Not well versed enough here Epi!! lol.
And, is it a bloodline thing as to why Jews dissuade conversion?

Episkopos said:
Partly. But also to become a Jew is a very big commitment. They want to you to REALLY count the cost. Just as Jesus said His followers should. So we also should try dissuading people from following holiness...UNTIL they also count the cost.

So it isn't a question of they NOT wanting a convert...they just want real converts. I think this is a much better policy regarding a calling to holiness.

I have encountered at least two Christian groups with a similar policy... [and maybe a third].

I dealt with one on the Internet for a long time being a member of their forum without joining their church.
[Actually they would not have allowed me to join without completing their course and embracing certain of their doctrines.] I was just about a member of the other for a number of years. [The third is represented here on the forum and my only experience with them is on the Internet and I while I am guessing about their policy what I have seen makes be believe it is so.]

Of the two I experienced more closely they both had other problems which offset the benefit of having that one better policy. I would be very slow to recommend any of them to an unbeliever. I won't say absolutely that I would not recommend them because sure as I do that God might then press me to do just what I said that I would not. LOL. It would not be the first time.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos @Nancy





I have encountered at least two Christian groups with a similar policy... [and maybe a third].

I dealt with one on the Internet for a long time being a member of their forum without joining their church.
[Actually they would not have allowed me to join without completing their course and embracing certain of their doctrines.] I was just about a member of the other for a number of years. [The third is represented here on the forum and my only experience with them is on the Internet and I while I am guessing about their policy what I have seen makes be believe it is so.]

Of the two I experienced more closely they both had other problems which offset the benefit of having that one better policy. I would be very slow to recommend any of them to an unbeliever. I won't say absolutely that I would not recommend them because sure as I do that God might then press me to do just what I said that I would not. LOL. It would not be the first time.

But I also see the easier commitment of righteousness...the universal effort to do all one can and to love others as oneself. I think that the majority of the church will always be the righteous. But the problem is when the righteous are called saints...which they are not. So I see a big distinction between the saints..who walk in the miraculous resurrection power of Christ. ...and the faithful brethren who serve God and the world in humility (by faithfulness).
This thinking is very Judaic in nature. It is in fact SO Judaic that the message is a given...seeing that all early writers and readers of the bible were Jewish. The problems arise when people assume the worldview of the bible is identical to their own.

 

[amadeus]

But I also see the easier commitment of righteousness...the universal effort to do all one can and to love others as oneself. I think that the majority of the church will always be the righteous. But the problem is when the righteous are called saints...which they are not. So I see a big distinction between the saints..who walk in the miraculous resurrection power of Christ. ...and the faithful brethren who serve God and the world in humility.
This thinking is very Judaic in nature. It is in fact SO Judaic that the message is a given...seeing that all early writers and readers of the bible were Jewish. The problems arise when people assume the worldview of the bible is identical to their own.

While I do agree with you, God brought me here by a slightly different route. It's still Jesus in any case.

Many people who may be on the Lord's side still avoid even reading much of the OT making for themselves, it seems to me, an unnecessary stumbling block. Of course reading the OT along with the NT is no guarantee either. But we should be making the most of everything that God provides.