The Investigative Judgement

[Pavel Mosko]

(Opening Into from Seventh Day Adventist web site explaining this doctrine)

"A Seventh-day Adventist term for the preliminary phase of the great final judgment by which God intervenes in human affairs to bring the reign of sin to a close and to inaugurate Christ’s eternal reign of righteousness ( see Dan. 7:9 , 10 , 13 , 14 ). This opening phase is called an investigative judgment because it consists of an examination of the life records of all who have ever professed to accept salvation in Christ and whose names are therefore inscribed in “the Lamb’s book of life.” Its purpose is to verify their eligibility for citizenship in God’s eternal kingdom. At the close of the investigative judgment the sins of those who have endured to the end are “blotted out” from the books of record and the names of all others are stricken from the book of life ( Ex. 32:32 , 33 ; Rev. 3:5 ; 20:12 , 15 ; 22:19 ). Seventh-day Adventists teach that in view of the fact that at His second coming Christ rewards “every man according as his work shall be” ( Rev. 22:12 ; cf . Rom. 2:5–11 ), it is evident that this investigation of the life record takes place before He returns to earth to gather the elect. The divine proclamation “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come,” is specifically presented as preceding the Advent ( Rev. 14:7 ; cf . v. 14 ). To be sure, God does not need to investigate the records in order to learn or to determine who is eligible to be saved. It is for the benefit of all created beings that the facts with respect to each person’s fate should be known, as an assurance to all that justice has been done and as a guarantee of the eternal stability of the divine government. "

Taken from the Adventist website below (I encourage folks who don't know much about this doctrine to read more about it

EllenWhite.Org Website - Investigative Judgement

A Seventh-day Adventist term for the preliminary phase of the great final judgment by which God intervenes in human affairs to bring the reign of sin to a close and to inaugurate Christ’s eternal reign

ellenwhite.org

Here is a more critical source.

1844 and the Investigative Judgment: In Him Ministries

The Investigative Judgment Ellen White and the Seventh-day Adventist Church teach that the Investigative Judgment is a Judgment for believers only.

in-him.com

I will say for most Christians this is probably going to be an overly complex and unnecessary doctrine, even a Pelagian heretical doctrine as some quotes seem to imply (believers in end eventually will stand on their own merits apart from Christ). It is based on the notion of a "Two Stage Atonement" of Christ. That Christ's work on the cross was not "finished" as Scripture says (that statement only pertains to him paying for the penalty of sin). In this doctrinal paradigm Christ literally does the work of Cohen high priest blotting out specific sins that have been specifically repented of, and leaving the rest alone to be judged by God on the Great White Throne Judgement. There are just so many assumptions made on this doctrine, and so much minutiae, reading into old Testament types and transposing them back as a literal New Testament reality in heaven....

Talk to you all later!

 

[Hobie]

It's very simple, who will Christ take with Him to the heavenly kingdom, they must be judged righteous before that happens, it's as simple as that...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's very simple, who will Christ take with Him to the heavenly kingdom, they must be judged righteous before that happens, it's as simple as that...

But it's not really simply at all. All Christians believe in a Final Judgement, the notion that this all began in 1844 for some esoteric reason, where Jesus goes through all the books one by one starting with earliest generations dead and working his way to the present day is something that is purely unique to Seventh Day Adventism. And it is entirely unnecessary, because with the Divine Attributes of God like Omniscience, this can all happen in a blink of an eye. This however is very much a needed doctrine if you feel the need to rationalize your way around the Great Disappointment, to explain why your sect is still relevant and the Chosen Remnant rather than realizing that you made a huge mistake following William Miller in the first place.

 

[Hobie]

But it's not really simply at all. All Christians believe in a Final Judgement, the notion that this all began in 1844 for some esoteric reason, where Jesus goes through all the books one by one starting with earliest generations dead and working his way to the present day is something that is purely unique to Seventh Day Adventism. And it is entirely unnecessary, because with the Divine Attributes of God like Omniscience, this can all happen in a blink of an eye. This however is very much a needed doctrine if you feel the need to rationalize your way around the Great Disappointment, to explain why your sect is still relevant and the Chosen Remnant rather than realizing that you made a huge mistake following William Miller in the first place.

Judgement had to begin for the saints before the Second Coming at some point and God is a God of order and would let His saints know...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Judgement had to begin for the saints before the Second Coming at some point and God is a God of order and would let His saints know...

This is only true from the unique theological perspective of Seventh Day Adventism.
The rest of Christianity recognizes that God has infinite attributes, and Jesus being a person in the Godhead has them too. He does not need to ramp up his data collection like a human being does. He may use the imagery of going through the books in the Bible etc. but he is not bound by our limitations, now that his earthly ministry is now complete. He can do this all in "a blink of an eye".

Seventh Day Adventism however is against this common theology because it considers it "a pagan corruption" going back to its "pioneers" but the theology of the Pioneers has got lots of problems itself both not understanding orthodox Christian doctrine but even it's Biblical foundations. Christianity might use terms from Platonism, Stoicism etc. but those terms do relate to scriptural realities of God being Spirit, Omniscient, omnipresent, not subject to time etc. As evidence in the following links.

14 Bible verses about God, Omniscience Of

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

What Does the Bible Say About God Is Not Limited By Time?

Bible verses about God Is Not Limited By Time

www.openbible.info

 

[BarneyFife]

Critics of the Investigative Judgment never seem to say anything about the ending part of the cited article which is practically the key to understanding the doctrine:

To be sure, God does not need to investigate the records in order to learn or to determine who is eligible to be saved. It is for the benefit of all created beings that the facts with respect to each person’s fate should be known, as an assurance to all that justice has been done and as a guarantee of the eternal stability of the divine government. "

It is a divine courtesy, to which I can't, for the life of me, understand folks are so anxious to object.

Unless they somehow begrudge it of their fellow created beings.

.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Critics of the Investigative Judgment never seem to say anything about the ending part of the cited article which is practically the key to understanding the doctrine:



It is a divine courtesy, to which I can't, for the life of me, understand folks are so anxious to object.

Unless they somehow begrudge it of their fellow created beings.

.

Barney there is a lot to object to on the Investigative Judgement. Even one of your own SDA theologians, Desmond Ford objected to it concerning it's Biblical Foundations.

I would say I object to it for 2 basic reasons

1) It is really needed along with it's other parallel doctrines of (Christ in the Sanctuary etc.) to make whole Seventh Day Adventist system work. And part of the problem with that are issues like making Sabbath Keeping mandatory for Salvation etc. There are a lot of problems with that from a general Biblical and Historical stand point, of Christianity being "the Faith once delivered unto the Saints" as Jude mentions, we are to preach the same Gospel, and the same Christ as what was preached long ago, and well the SDA Christ and 3 Angles Gospel are substantially different.


2) There is an issue of Pelagianism. Pelagianism is the heresy that we "earn our salvation". There are various quotes from EGW that suggest that in the end we stand alone on our own merits apart from Christ. That is problematic. Our salvation only happens because we are "In Christ" if we are saved.


3) Besides this I would also have to point to the Gnostic like undertones of all of this. I say Gnostic because of the notion that 1844 should be such a special time, important to our salvation, yet this is unverifiable to anyone who does not believe Hiram Edson and all pioneers elaborating on his cornfield vision. That whole thing is so different than most of the New Testament message, even the book of Revelation. There is all kinds of minutiae in this system in regards to Christ acting as High Priest applying his blood to specific sins, ones that have been specifically confessed while leaving other ones hanging. Which actually brings up areas of more of Biblical objection, as an Exadventist youtuber Myles Christian mentions in his videos, there are only 3 times when blood was actually brought into the Holy of Holies and those times did not deal with personal sin of the common Israelite. (The sin of the actual high priest was one of them).

 

[ElieG12]

Most biblical prophecies have three fulfillments:

1) the one closest to the time in which it is written and which is normally framed within the Israelite or Jewish people before Christ,

2) the one that is related to the Christian congregation of the first century and

3) the modern fulfillment that applies to God's true people today.

Mal. 3:1-4 is an actual prophecy. It is, as all of them, subject to interpretation.
What would you say are its three fulfillments?

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney there is a lot to object to on the Investigative Judgement. Even one of your own SDA theologians, Desmond Ford objected to it concerning it's Biblical Foundations.

I would say I object to it for 2 basic reasons

1) It is really needed along with it's other parallel doctrines of (Christ in the Sanctuary etc.) to make whole Seventh Day Adventist system work. And part of the problem with that are issues like making Sabbath Keeping mandatory for Salvation etc. There are a lot of problems with that from a general Biblical and Historical stand point, of Christianity being "the Faith once delivered unto the Saints" as Jude mentions, we are to preach the same Gospel, and the same Christ as what was preached long ago, and well the SDA Christ and 3 Angles Gospel are substantially different.


2) There is an issue of Pelagianism. Pelagianism is the heresy that we "earn our salvation". There are various quotes from EGW that suggest that in the end we stand alone on our own merits apart from Christ. That is problematic. Our salvation only happens because we are "In Christ" if we are saved.


3) Besides this I would also have to point to the Gnostic like undertones of all of this. I say Gnostic because of the notion that 1844 should be such a special time, important to our salvation, yet this is unverifiable to anyone who does not believe Hiram Edson and all pioneers elaborating on his cornfield vision. That whole thing is so different than most of the New Testament message, even the book of Revelation. There is all kinds of minutiae in this system in regards to Christ acting as High Priest applying his blood to specific sins, ones that have been specifically confessed while leaving other ones hanging. Which actually brings up areas of more of Biblical objection, as an Exadventist youtuber Myles Christian mentions in his videos, there are only 3 times when blood was actually brought into the Holy of Holies and those times did not deal with personal sin of the common Israelite. (The sin of the actual high priest was one of them).

This post seems thoughtful but, to be honest, this isn't my first rodeo with you and I'm not interested in over-complicating a simple issue. God wants His children to be without doubt as to His justice and mercy. This is demonstrable all throughout Scripture.

It's been my experience that folks who are set on cutting down Adventism (and welcome they are) tend to hold Ellen White's written work to far higher standard of textual criticism than they would ever dare hold Scripture. The objections and arguments are uncannily similar to the ones atheists advance against the Bible.

As to legalism, it's just more hair-splitting. No one minds talk of obedience until it's time to talk about the 4th commandment. And the truth is that the conditions of eternal life are the same as they have always been: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so, then Christ gave His life in vain.

Gnosticism? If God has a true rule of faith and practice it stands to reason that He might just have entrusted it to someone and caused it to multiply. And getting into a twist about that is a lot like the kid who's always mad when the neighbor kid has something cool that he doesn't have. We have neo-Gnostics here and they sure aren't restricted to Adventism.

.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Most biblical prophecies have three fulfillments:

1) the one closest to the time in which it is written and which is normally framed within the Israelite or Jewish people before Christ,

2) the one that is related to the Christian congregation of the first century and

3) the modern fulfillment that applies to God's true people today.

Mal. 3:1-4 is an actual prophecy. It is, as all of them, subject to interpretation.
What would you say are its three fulfillments?

Malachi 3:1-4

New International Version

​

3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.


Well, it remains to be seen that there are 3 fulfillments of this. I will go with Michael Heiser on this, and if the Millerites had followed his wisdom there would not have been various Great disappointments, as well as little disappointments and other hiccups.

If I would hazard to guess John the Baptist, and maybe the Two Witnesses of the book of Revelation.

 

[ElieG12]

Malachi wrote at about the same time as Nehemiah. The temple was already rebuilt, so it must have been around the 5th century BC.

Malachi was the last inspired writer of the Jewish Scriptures, and after him the so-called intertestamental period began. Nearly four centuries passed before Jesus was born and during which there was no prophet who wrote any other inspired book like the previous ones. At the middle or so of this period was the time of the Maccabees and the whole struggle for power between the different Jewish parties.

The book of Malachi talks about these fundamental things:

in chapters 1 and 2:

1) despite Jehovah's love for Israel they betrayed him;
2) the people and their priests are censured for their wicked acts

...and then in chapters 3 and 4:

3) the promise that the Lord will judge and refine his people
4) the prophecy about the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.

So it is in that framework that the prophecy of Mal. 3 is written.

Its first fulfillment of the prophecies in Chapter 3 may have occurred in the intertestamental period, but since no inspired books were written at that time, all research is conditioned by the interpretation of the events of that stage for Jerusalem and the Jewish people, and a certain dependence on non-canonical books such as the Maccabees.

The second fulfillment is known: it happened in the time of John the Baptist, who prepared the way for the appearance of the Messiah. The Messiah accuses the religious leaders of their falsehood, and eventually the temple in Jerusalem is destroyed.

The third fulfillment is in our days. We Jehovah's Witnesses believe that in 1870 Russell and his companions began to discover and systematize biblical truths, and thus began to prepare the way for what we call the presence of Jesus, his enthronement in heaven. Later around 1918 "Christianity" was inspected, because many had adopted the name "Christians" but very few groups showed true respect for the Bible. We believe that those who were the International Bible Students (in 1931 called Jehovah's Witnesses) were cleansed and chosen as God's people, and those guiding the international organization then living, became the Governing Body of modern Jehovah's Witnesses. Over time the refinement has continued. The end may be the destruction of the false Christendom and the rest.

It is an example of how a Christian community interprets prophecy in our times. Adventists have their own interpretation...and I suppose other Protestant organizations have their own.

 

[marks]

And the truth is that the conditions of eternal life are the same as they have always been: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so, then Christ gave His life in vain.

If you give perfect obedience to the commands of God, and this can save you, why did Christ die?

Much love!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

t's been my experience that folks who are set on cutting down Adventism (and welcome they are) tend to hold Ellen White's written work to far higher standard of textual criticism than they would ever dare hold Scripture. The objections and arguments are uncannily similar to the ones atheists advance against the Bible.

Barney, Adventists on many issues try to "have their cake and eat it too". Ellen White is treated as a great prophetic figure but also protected by various technicalities like the fact that she on two occasions said "I do not claim to be a prophet", yet on many other occasions she actually claims to be much more and I will be happy to quote you some quotes if you don't believe me, yet something tells me you have already heard this sort of thing before.

As to legalism, it's just more hair-splitting. No one minds talk of obedience until it's time to talk about the 4th commandment. And the truth is that the conditions of eternal life are the same as they have always been: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so, then Christ gave His life in vain.

Yes and no. I will give you and your church the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are one of these "Evangelical Adventists" I hear so much about lately. But I have heard plenty of quotes from EGW and occasionally other pioneers like Uriah Smith, not to mention ex-Adventists talking about Adventists sermons, so it might be splitting hairs to you but not to other folks.

Gnosticism? If God has a true rule of faith and practice it stands to reason that He might just have entrusted it to someone and caused it to multiply. And getting into a twist about that is a lot like the kid who's always mad when the neighbor kid has something cool that he doesn't have. We have neo-Gnostics here and they sure aren't restricted to Adventism.

That's the thing you don't have any toy I want. Quite frankly there is more supernatural gifts of the Spirit outside of Adventism than in it. Not only that, but I'm very sure that would be true during the Hey Days of Millerism into early Adventism. I am not impressed with Ellen Whites prophecies, or her lifting the Big Bible I have actually seen more and better. Not to mention better stuff has happened in post Biblical Church History.

I should also add I came from a movement in the Charismatic movement called "The Prophetic movement". The folks in that movement had lots of prophecy. Some of it seemed real, other I believe was largely people prophesying out of their imagination. This really is one of the reasons why I am tough on Adventism, I already saw my share of Charismatic ministers with the "don't touch the anointed" attitude when it came to facing any criticism for some of the questionable things they preached and did.

 

[Brakelite]

Barney, Adventists on many issues try to "have their cake and eat it too". Ellen White is treated as a great prophetic figure but also protected by various technicalities like the fact that she on two occasions said "I do not claim to be a prophet", yet on many other occasions she actually claims to be much more and I will be happy to quote you some quotes if you don't believe me, yet something tells me you have already heard this sort of thing before.

God forbid that He would want to send a warning message to a dying church a short time before He comes. So unlike God right?

If you give perfect obedience to the commands of God, and this can save you, why did Christ die?

Much love!

Yes and no. I will give you and your church the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are one of these "Evangelical Adventists" I hear so much about lately.

"Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

Quite frankly there is more supernatural gifts of the Spirit outside of Adventism than in it.

And yet even you are not sure what is true and what is false. I also have a history in the Pentecostal movement. I've also seen what passed for prophecy, healing, etc etc in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. And precious little of it glorified Jesus as the Saviour of man in direct contradistinction to Ellen White who everywhere, throughout her writings and speeches, constantly and without ceasing uplifted Jesus as the only Saviour.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@BarneyFife a question I forgot to ask with your "Splitting hairs" comment. I take it you must be in the allegorical camp on this issue. If not, then I don't how you would indicate that this is not a big deal. The fact that Adventism has two Atonements is already a big deal. The fact that some Adventists hear sermons that at any moment while they are on Earth they may have the Investigative Judgement happen and "Probation closed" sounds like a big deal to me.

 

[Brakelite]

The fact that Adventism has two Atonements is already a big deal.

The annual cycle of ceremonies, feasts, holy days and sacrifices in the OT all formed one single process of atonement. The daily sacrifice was incomplete without the Day of Atonement at the end. And because those things were a type of the true, then we must expect that the cross of Calvary was incomplete without the resurrection, and the following ministry of Christ as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary of which the antitypical Day of Atonement and the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary must of necessity be an essential part right? Why would anyone object to what God has established for our eternal well being?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

And yet even you are not sure what is true and what is false. I also have a history in the Pentecostal movement. I've also seen what passed for prophecy, healing, etc etc in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. And precious little of it glorified Jesus as the Saviour of man in direct contradistinction to Ellen White who everywhere, throughout her writings and speeches, constantly and without ceasing uplifted Jesus as the only Saviour.

Actually, that is not true. Most prophesy was stuff that was kind of generic, and had quotes from the Bible, encouraging stuff, or something else. Sometimes however people could really impress you in a way where it was definitely not generic but very specific in the sense of "They were reading your mail".

I would also say, I have also seen prophetic words or talk about the moving of the spirit used manipulatively to raise money. This was something the early Christians were warned against in the Didache, it was a no no in the ancient church, where you the prophet would be excommunicated.

I will also say the prophesy was usually not trying to predict something. The few times, I have seen that, that has never gone well. And that is a definite mark of false prophecy, and before even thinking about the false predictive prophecies of Ellen White I already had my share of them with people prophesying a revival in the White House under Bill Clinton, a war with China around the year 2000, and in most recent times that Trump would be re-elected in the previous election etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

God forbid that He would want to send a warning message to a dying church a short time before He comes. So unlike God right?



"Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"


And yet even you are not sure what is true and what is false. I also have a history in the Pentecostal movement. I've also seen what passed for prophecy, healing, etc etc in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. And precious little of it glorified Jesus as the Saviour of man in direct contradistinction to Ellen White who everywhere, throughout her writings and speeches, constantly and without ceasing uplifted Jesus as the only Saviour.

I would say most of your other comments Brakelite are kind of strawman that are not really worth answering. In some ways they are even worse than that, but its OK I have come to not expect much from Seventh Day Adventists other than a few thoughtful ones I meet here and there.


I will however say this, as far for the Investigative Judgement or EGW we don't need either. God has already given us the Jews and the nation of Israel to see the Signs of the Times. The fact that the nation of Israel has come back, and other prophecies like the re-establishment of the Temple being near at hand show us that the time is nigh.

 

[BarneyFife]

Regardless of the negative criticisms or characterizations of the Sanctuary doctrine, whether from those within the church or outside, in the end it's primarily about God beneficently choosing to do things transparently, decently, and orderly. Pretty much anything I say above and beyond that will only serve to fuel unnecessary controversy.

.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Regardless of the negative criticisms or characterizations of the Sanctuary doctrine, whether from those within the church or outside, in the end it's primarily about God beneficently choosing to do things transparently, decently, and orderly. Pretty much anything I say above and beyond that will only serve to fuel unnecessary controversy.

.

And I can accept that! :)


I will just remind people of the purpose of the thread. This thread is more a "Public Service Announcement" to inform your average Christian who knows hardly anything about Seventh Day Adventism about what they believe. I am not primarily aimed at converting folks away or to something, for the simply common sense of the saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink". 99% of the time it is a lost cause to try, people if they are serious have way to much time, study, and effort invested in their beliefs for some random dude on the internet to make a difference that says something contrary to what they believe. However, we are all called to "study to show ourselves approved", and to "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. " and sometimes those little conversations and testimonies do make a difference as far as planting seeds that give people food for thought later down the path of life.