The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

[teleiosis]

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven).

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

• It is on the Day of the Lord.
• It is on the clouds.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign:

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.


4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is also revealed by Jesus to John for the sequence of the Day of the Lord in the Seal/Scroll vision given to John:

REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal.

- The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians.

- Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered.

- Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation.

- This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.
​

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.

· Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.​

· Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.​

· And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.​

The Church is not to endure these conditions:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet.

· The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet.
· Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets.
· It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance.
· The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring.


The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after:

• The one ‘seven’ starts
• The first half oppression
• The midpoint abomination(s)
• The Great Tribulation

It happens on:

The Day of the Lord​

It happens before:

• Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet
• The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)
• The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

 

[JLB]

Where is your scripture that identifies THE SEVENTH TRUMPET?

Revelation 10:7


7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


I think you mixing up the seventh seal and the sounding of the seventh angel's trumpet.


Thanks, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

I am not mixing up the seventh Seal with the seventh Trumpet... the seventh Seal finally opens the Scroll to reveal the desolations which have been decreed; (Dan 9:26) these desolations are trumpeted by the seven Angels. The Last Trumpet precedes both the seventh Seals and the seventh Trumpet; the Seals and Trumpets do not occur concurrently or in parallel.

The Last Trumpet is sounded on the Day of the Lord. I said: The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth. That inclues the seventh.

The mystery of God is another thing... define it - don't assume it means what you'd like it to be according to your pet eschatology, i.e., the Rapture. The Rapture results in the Great Multitude suddenly appearing in the Temple of God the Father, and that happens with the sixth Seal.

 

[JLB]

Please give me your scripture reference of the seventh trumpet.


Thanks, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

You supplied it. It never says the seventh Trumpet is the "Last Trumpet."

I correctly stated that the Last Trumpet is pegged to the sixth Seal and that happens before the seventh Trumpet of Rev 10:7. The sixth Seal happens before the seventh Seal allows the Scroll to be opened and thus reveals the desolations God has decreed from so long ago which culminates with the seventh Trumpet - third Woe -- which, by the way, is not delineated in the main account of the end-times in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (except for the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13).

The Last Trumpet mirrors the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks, or Pentecost. Taken together, they bookend the growing season. In eschatological terms: they bookend the Church Age.

The Last Trumpet is a named Trumpet sounded by God, and it is not even the "last" Trumpet in its series either! After the Last Trumpet of the Day of the Lord (mirroring Rosh ha-Shanah) is the Great Trumpet of the Millennium which corresponds to Yom Kippur, the Atonement, or as one Jewish author describes it: the At-one-ment.

The seventh Trumpet is a numbered Trumpet sounded by an Angel. It is the last of the Trumpet Judgments and comes only after the previous six; the first four which act in thirds, and the three Woes. The actual desolations included in the seventh Trumpet are not delineated in the Seal/Scroll account. This is because John is faithful not to disclose anything that the "Angel" says standing astride earth and water. I think the third Woe shows the depth of God's Wrath by replaying the previous "third" desolations, but now they are total. I think the Bowl Judgments are the revealed desolations of the third Woe.

(Revelation chapter 12 is not the third Woe; there is a shift of focus and scene from chapter 11 to chapter 12. The end of chapter 11 includes the earth-changing earthquake literally flattening out the eath's topography so that rain is not determined by mechanical uplift. Chapter 12 harkens back to the time of Jesus' birth.)

 

[JLB]

You supplied it. It never says the seventh Trumpet is the "Last Trumpet."

I correctly stated that the Last Trumpet is pegged to the sixth Seal and that happens before the seventh Trumpet of Rev 10:7. The sixth Seal happens before the seventh Seal allows the Scroll to be opened and thus reveals the desolations God has decreed from so long ago which culminates with the seventh Trumpet - third Woe -- which, by the way, is not delineated in the main account of the end-times in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (except for the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13).

The Last Trumpet mirrors the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks, or Pentecost. Taken together, they bookend the growing season. In eschatological terms: they bookend the Church Age.

The Last Trumpet is a named Trumpet sounded by God, and it is not even the "last" Trumpet in its series either! After the Last Trumpet of the Day of the Lord (mirroring Rosh ha-Shanah) is the Great Trumpet of the Millennium which corresponds to Yom Kippur, the Atonement, or as one Jewish author describes it: the At-one-ment.

The seventh Trumpet is a numbered Trumpet sounded by an Angel. It is the last of the Trumpet Judgments and comes only after the previous six; the first four which act in thirds, and the three Woes. The actual desolations included in the seventh Trumpet are not delineated in the Seal/Scroll account. This is because John is faithful not to disclose anything that the "Angel" says standing astride earth and water. I think the third Woe shows the depth of God's Wrath by replaying the previous "third" desolations, but now they are total. I think the Bowl Judgments are the revealed desolations of the third Woe.

(Revelation chapter 12 is not the third Woe; there is a shift of focus and scene from chapter 11 to chapter 12. The end of chapter 11 includes the earth-changing earthquake literally flattening out the eath's topography so that rain is not determined by mechanical uplift. Chapter 12 harkens back to the time of Jesus' birth.)

#1 - I correctly stated that the Last Trumpet is pegged to the sixth Seal and that happens before the seventh Trumpet of Rev 10:7.

There is no trumpet sounding in Revelation 10:7.

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

As of this verse the seventh trumpet has not been sounded.


# 2 - I correctly stated that the Last Trumpet is pegged to the sixth Seal and that happens before the seventh Trumpet of Rev 10:7.

The last trumpet is THE LAST TRUMPET. If the last trumpet happens before the seventh trumpet, it wouldn't be called THE LAST TRUMPET!


# 3 - The seventh Trumpet is a numbered Trumpet sounded by an Angel. The Last Trumpet is a named Trumpet sounded by God,

Please notice in the verse below Matthew 24:31 -

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .

The fact that God is the one sending His angels for the purpose of sounding the trumpet qualifies this as being described as the trumpet of God. However, the fact that the angel is in fact doing the sounding also qualifies it being a trumpet sounded by an angel.

Even without this verse illustrating this fact, you have to realize that anything God sends an angel to do is an action of God, even though the angel is doing it.

We can see this action in the next verse - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


The last trump signals the return of The Lord Jesus.
The last trump signals the ressurrection of the dead in Christ, then we who are alive and remain...
The last trump signals the end of the age.
The last trump signals the finish of the mystery of God.
The last trump is THE LAST TRUMP.
The last trump is the seventh trumpet unless you can show me a scripture that specifically shows the 7th trumpet actually being sounded!


Bless you, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

Yours is the same simple argument of many Post-Tribbers: last means last. That is your simple perspective.

Again, in 1Th 4:16, it is the trumpet call of God. In Mt 24:31 who is blowing the trumpet? It doesn't say the angels are blowing the trumpet. Since it is the same gathering of as 1Th 4:16, a more logical conclusion is the gathering of the Elect is done on God's command.

The "Last Trumpet" is a named Trumpet of God. He blows it; specifically, Jesus blows it.

Here is where God's wisdom is not your wisdom: the Last Trumpet is not the last trumpet that God blows. After this one at the Rapture, is the Great Trumpet. Go figure that Mister Last.

 

[veteran]

Yours is the same simple argument of many Post-Tribbers: last means last. That is your simple perspective.

Again, in 1Th 4:16, it is the trumpet call of God. In Mt 24:31 who is blowing the trumpet? It doesn't say the angels are blowing the trumpet. Since it is the same gathering of as 1Th 4:16, a more logical conclusion is the gathering of the Elect is done on God's command.

The "Last Trumpet" is a named Trumpet of God. He blows it; specifically, Jesus blows it.

Here is where God's wisdom is not your wisdom: the Last Trumpet is not the last trumpet that God blows. After this one at the Rapture, is the Great Trumpet. Go figure that Mister Last.

You mean the word 'last' doesn't REALLY mean last?#!*@??

Oh, I get it. It's like "who's on first?. No, who is on second."

For those who might be confused with the 7th angel sounding in the Rev.10 chapter, that's a paranthetical chapter, like a quick summary of the end when the 7th Trumpet sounds described in the next Rev.11 chapter.

Timeline in God's Word oftens jumps around, so it's a mistake to try and create a chronology solely based on the order of written chapter divisions. This is easily seen with the 6th Seal, which includes events for immediately after Christ's coming and start of His Millennium reign.

In Rev.7 towards the end of the chapter, we're given a quick jump forward for after Christ's return and His reign upon Mount Zion with the great multitude in His presence. Yet the 7th trumpet isn't even mentioned until the later Rev.10-11 chapters, and the description of Christ's de facto coming isn't written until the Rev.19 chapter.

 

[teleiosis]

So here's the old sergeant who hasn't a ghost of an idea about trumpets and what differentiates them from one another arguing out of his ignorance once again but this time on the basis of the esteemed scholars Abbott and Costello. You must have played third base. And as far as I'm concerned about your misguided thinking about all things Biblical, what was the short-stop's name?

Now ignorance is not a liability; stupidity is. I do not wish any who care about prophecy to be ignorant, but you can't fix stupid.

There are three Trumpets of God. They are all sounded by God. They are:

1. The First Trumpet: this is associated with the Festival of Weeks which celebrates the giving of the Law.
2. The Last Trumpet: this is associated with the Festival of Trumpets, the Retuning Anew; Rosh ha-Shanah.
3. The Great Trumpet: this is associated with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Notice in the sequence that "last" isn't last. That's God's wisdom. He has a plan.
The three Trumpet calls from God are sequenced in the year by the Festivals they're associated with in the Bible.
From my study, I would say that all three Trumpet calls of God are assembly Trumpets; trumpets have different purposes.
Eschatologically, the Trumpets are spread out in time:

1. When the Church began nearly 2000 years ago -
2. When the Church is called up, still to come, and -
3. When the Sabbath Millennial rule of Christ is to begin.

There are seven Trumpets of God's Wrath. They are numbered. (Seven is a number of completeness.) They are all sounded by Angels.
From my study, the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath are announcement Trumpets: they sound a warning or alternately, they "call" out what is to follow.
The seven Trumpets functions in God's Wrath are as follows:

1. First Trumpet: one-third of the earth burned.
2. Second Trumpet: one-third of the sea to blood.
3. Third Trumpet: one-third of the water made bitter.
4. Fourth Trumpet: one-third of the light struck.
5. Fifth Trumpet -- First Woe: Abyss opened, torture for 5 months.
6. Sixth Trumpet -- Second Woe: 4 Angels; war kills one-third of mankind (left).
7. Seventh Trumpet -- Third Woe: --no details of what happens is mentioned in the Seal/Scroll account of Rev chapters 4-11.

Notice that there is NO confusion between the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks (Pentecost) and the First Trumpet of God's Wrath, which I would say happens on the Day of the Lord as well as our Rapture - just after we are safely in Heaven.

The seventh Trumpet is the last Trumpet of God's Wrath. It does complete this portion of the mystery of God's plan; that is openly stated in the Bible.

Notice too, that there is never any labeling of the seventh Trumpet, which is also the third Woe, as the "Last Trumpet" in the Bible.

However, this will not stop "last day" of the one 'seven' adherents from insisting, quite apart from two factual statements by Jesus, that they "know" the "last day" happens on the last day of the one 'seven.' This is because they have a simple understanding in which they have invested a lot of time and effort. They may have been taught this by someone they respect and hold onto it as they would an article of faith. Either way, and there may be other motivations, they have a lot of emotional energy tied up in their eschatology and they are very reluctant to let go of what doesn't work. Instead, they will argue until the cows come home, or we go up into the clouds, that "last means last" despite even being shown that in God's Wisdom, it doesn't... Heck, if you want to argue, the "last day" isn't even last either - 30 days comes after that and then another 45 days until the Millennium begins.

 

[JLB]

So here's the old sergeant who hasn't a ghost of an idea about trumpets and what differentiates them from one another arguing out of his ignorance once again but this time on the basis of the esteemed scholars Abbott and Costello. You must have played third base. And as far as I'm concerned about your misguided thinking about all things Biblical, what was the short-stop's name?

Now ignorance is not a liability; stupidity is. I do not wish any who care about prophecy to be ignorant, but you can't fix stupid.

There are three Trumpets of God. They are all sounded by God. They are:

1. The First Trumpet: this is associated with the Festival of Weeks which celebrates the giving of the Law.
2. The Last Trumpet: this is associated with the Festival of Trumpets, the Retuning Anew; Rosh ha-Shanah.
3. The Great Trumpet: this is associated with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Notice in the sequence that "last" isn't last. That's God's wisdom. He has a plan.
The three Trumpet calls from God are sequenced in the year by the Festivals they're associated with in the Bible.
From my study, I would say that all three Trumpet calls of God are assembly Trumpets; trumpets have different purposes.
Eschatologically, the Trumpets are spread out in time:

1. When the Church began nearly 2000 years ago -
2. When the Church is called up, still to come, and -
3. When the Sabbath Millennial rule of Christ is to begin.

There are seven Trumpets of God's Wrath. They are numbered. (Seven is a number of completeness.) They are all sounded by Angels.
From my study, the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath are announcement Trumpets: they sound a warning or alternately, they "call" out what is to follow.
The seven Trumpets functions in God's Wrath are as follows:

1. First Trumpet: one-third of the earth burned.
2. Second Trumpet: one-third of the sea to blood.
3. Third Trumpet: one-third of the water made bitter.
4. Fourth Trumpet: one-third of the light struck.
5. Fifth Trumpet -- First Woe: Abyss opened, torture for 5 months.
6. Sixth Trumpet -- Second Woe: 4 Angels; war kills one-third of mankind (left).
7. Seventh Trumpet -- Third Woe: --no details of what happens is mentioned in the Seal/Scroll account of Rev chapters 4-11.

Notice that there is NO confusion between the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks (Pentecost) and the First Trumpet of God's Wrath, which I would say happens on the Day of the Lord as well as our Rapture - just after we are safely in Heaven.

The seventh Trumpet is the last Trumpet of God's Wrath. It does complete this portion of the mystery of God's plan; that is openly stated in the Bible.

Notice too, that there is never any labeling of the seventh Trumpet, which is also the third Woe, as the "Last Trumpet" in the Bible.

However, this will not stop "last day" of the one 'seven' adherents from insisting, quite apart from two factual statements by Jesus, that they "know" the "last day" happens on the last day of the one 'seven.' This is because they have a simple understanding in which they have invested a lot of time and effort. They may have been taught this by someone they respect and hold onto it as they would an article of faith. Either way, and there may be other motivations, they have a lot of emotional energy tied up in their eschatology and they are very reluctant to let go of what doesn't work. Instead, they will argue until the cows come home, or we go up into the clouds, that "last means last" despite even being shown that in God's Wisdom, it doesn't... Heck, if you want to argue, the "last day" isn't even last either - 30 days comes after that and then another 45 days until the Millennium begins.

You what is so amazing about your long winded explanation above, NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE TO BE FOUND IN YOUR WRITING!

JUST ALOT OF HOT AIR!

I for one am not going to waste another minute of my time, giving you scripture after acripture just to have you spout your pathetic opinion.

Good luck with your "understanding" of the bible. JLB

 

[teleiosis]

I started this with a LOT of Scripture which solidly points to the Last Trumpet Rapture as being coincidental with the sixth Seal - which in the linear narrative of the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 (minus the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13) comes BEFORE the seventh Trumpet.

The First, Last, and Great Trumpets are part of Jewish ritual law and go back to the Bible themselves.

The First Trumpet is part of the giving of the Law, which is an important celebration in the Festival of Weeks and it goes back to Exodus 19:13, 16 and verse 19
The Last Trumpet is part of Paul's eschatology and as a Pharisee-trained Jew, he was most educated on Temple celebrations and goes back to Lev 23:24.
The Great Trumpet is part of prophecy in Isaiah 27:13 and is part of ritual law in Lev 25:9

I would suggest you do your research on this important aspect of the end-times if you want to counted worthy so as to teach eschatology.

Because the Last Trumpet that Jesus blows is part of the Day of the Lord actions, and that Day happens before the Scroll is opened and the seven Trumpets of Wrath the Angels blow - the Last Trumpet is eliminated from being the seventh Trumpet.

"Last day" Post-Tribbers have a couple of problems with their eschatology: not the least of which is the scant coverage Rev 3:10 doesn't give them to be "hidden away" during God's Wrath. Their insistence that they can make it through the whole of the one 'seven' is contradicted by Paul's testimony that we are saved before the coming of God's Wrath in 1Th 1:10.

Pre-Tribbers likewise use Rev 3:10 to insist we are taken out before the one 'seven,' but Rev 3:10 does not afford absolute physical protection in either case. The verb/preposition - tereo ek - means literally to watch over; it is not a ironclad protection from physical harm. John is the author and the only place tereo ek is used elsewhere in the Bible is by John again for Jesus' prayer for the Apostles. In John 17:15, the protection of tereo ek did not prevent eleven of the twelve from being martyred. It did, however, protect them eternally because none of the Apostles gave up their faith in Christ Jesus! -- And THAT is the condition the Church of Philadelphia exhibits that warrants God's watching out for them. Because they endure patiently, God will watch out for them. It's always good to have God have your back.

 

[veteran]

Heard teleiosis' false trumpet association with the Old Testament feast trumpet examples before. Jews OFTEN claim authority of knowledge about it because of their claimed heritage of holding to the laws of Moses.

Fact of the matter Biblically, is that the ONLY Old Testament Scripture about 'seven trumpets' is in the Book of Joshua (not the Law), and it was about seven priests with seven trumpets involving the event of desctruciton of the walls of the city of Jericho, WHICH CERTAINLY AIN'T ABOUT FEAST DAYS!

 

[JLB]

I find it

I started this with a LOT of Scripture which solidly points to the Last Trumpet Rapture as being coincidental with the sixth Seal - which in the linear narrative of the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 (minus the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13) comes BEFORE the seventh Trumpet.

The First, Last, and Great Trumpets are part of Jewish ritual law and go back to the Bible themselves.

The First Trumpet is part of the giving of the Law, which is an important celebration in the Festival of Weeks and it goes back to Exodus 19:13, 16 and verse 19
The Last Trumpet is part of Paul's eschatology and as a Pharisee-trained Jew, he was most educated on Temple celebrations and goes back to Lev 23:24.
The Great Trumpet is part of prophecy in Isaiah 27:13 and is part of ritual law in Lev 25:9

I would suggest you do your research on this important aspect of the end-times if you want to counted worthy so as to teach eschatology.

Because the Last Trumpet that Jesus blows is part of the Day of the Lord actions, and that Day happens before the Scroll is opened and the seven Trumpets of Wrath the Angels blow - the Last Trumpet is eliminated from being the seventh Trumpet.

"Last day" Post-Tribbers have a couple of problems with their eschatology: not the least of which is the scant coverage Rev 3:10 doesn't give them to be "hidden away" during God's Wrath. Their insistence that they can make it through the whole of the one 'seven' is contradicted by Paul's testimony that we are saved before the coming of God's Wrath in 1Th 1:10.

Pre-Tribbers likewise use Rev 3:10 to insist we are taken out before the one 'seven,' but Rev 3:10 does not afford absolute physical protection in either case. The verb/preposition - tereo ek - means literally to watch over; it is not a ironclad protection from physical harm. John is the author and the only place tereo ek is used elsewhere in the Bible is by John again for Jesus' prayer for the Apostles. In John 17:15, the protection of tereo ek did not prevent eleven of the twelve from being martyred. It did, however, protect them eternally because none of the Apostles gave up their faith in Christ Jesus! -- And THAT is the condition the Church of Philadelphia exhibits that warrants God's watching out for them. Because they endure patiently, God will watch out for them. It's always good to have God have your back.

The last trumpet is associated with Revelation 19 - The Return of Jesus Christ.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


This directly correlates to 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 16


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


As well as 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clearly this is referring to the end - afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24


This is the last trump.

 

[teleiosis]

No, Revelation 19:11-21 does not directy relate to 1Th 4:16 - there is no specific and unique event which ties the two; you just make the assertion.

1Th 4:16 is tied to the Day of the Lord. That includes the specific and unique event: the sun/moon/star sign. This ties 1Th 4:16 to Mt 24:29-31 and Rev 6:12-14.

The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord and this comes after the shortened Great Tribulation which decimates the Elect to near extinction.
This is caused by two laws put into effect with the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 and Rev 13:14-15).
Subsequent to that, is the Great Tribulation (Rev 13:15-17 and Mt 24:21.)
The Great Tribulation does not last the whole of the rest of the one 'seven.' (Mt 24:22)
Immediately after Great Tribulation comes the sun/moon/star sign (Mt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-14)
Then Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30, 1Th 4:16, and Rev 14:14) Revelation chapters 13-16 are a parallel account to chapters 4-11.
Then is the gathering of the Elect who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:15) from the earth (1Th 4:16, Mt 24:31, and Rev 14:15-16).
This gathering Harvest of souls then results in the Great Multitutde arriving in Heaven BEFORE the Scroll is opened and the first Trumpet goes forth (Rev 7:9-17).

The Day of the Lord Rapture happens before the Day of the Lord Wrath.

The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the Bowl Judgments after the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds the third Woe.
The battle at Armageddon in Rev 16 comes after the Harvest of Rev 14.
The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the one 'seven.'

The Day of the Lord comes before the battle at Armageddon.

Your case is not proved, mine is. Post-Trib is a belief; it is not Scripturally sound. The Last Day is when the Church Age ends. It comes on an unknown Day.

Now I have provided plenty of Scripture for the sequencing of a Pre-Wrath Rapture.
I have provided plenty of Scripture detailing the Trumpets.
The Last Trumpet call by God calling the Elect home is not the seventh Trumpet blown by an Angel announcing the third Woe that comes to the wicked.

That should be self-evident; however, some people will argue against Scripture based on their emotionally held belief.

 

[JLB]

No, Revelation 19:11-21 does not directy relate to 1Th 4:16 - there is no specific and unique event which ties the two; you just make the assertion.

1Th 4:16 is tied to the Day of the Lord. That includes the specific and unique event: the sun/moon/star sign. This ties 1Th 4:16 to Mt 24:29-31 and Rev 6:12-14.

The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord and this comes after the shortened Great Tribulation which decimates the Elect to near extinction.
This is caused by two laws put into effect with the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 and Rev 13:14-15).
Subsequent to that, is the Great Tribulation (Rev 13:15-17 and Mt 24:21.)
The Great Tribulation does not last the whole of the rest of the one 'seven.' (Mt 24:22)
Immediately after Great Tribulation comes the sun/moon/star sign (Mt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-14)
Then Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30, 1Th 4:16, and Rev 14:14) Revelation chapters 13-16 are a parallel account to chapters 4-11.
Then is the gathering of the Elect who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:15) from the earth (1Th 4:16, Mt 24:31, and Rev 14:15-16).
This gathering Harvest of souls then results in the Great Multitutde arriving in Heaven BEFORE the Scroll is opened and the first Trumpet goes forth (Rev 7:9-17).

The Day of the Lord Rapture happens before the Day of the Lord Wrath.

The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the Bowl Judgments after the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds the third Woe.
The battle at Armageddon in Rev 16 comes after the Harvest of Rev 14.
The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the one 'seven.'

The Day of the Lord comes before the battle at Armageddon.

Your case is not proved, mine is. Post-Trib is a belief; it is not Scripturally sound. The Last Day is when the Church Age ends. It comes on an unknown Day.

Now I have provided plenty of Scripture for the sequencing of a Pre-Wrath Rapture.
I have provided plenty of Scripture detailing the Trumpets.
The Last Trumpet call by God calling the Elect home is not the seventh Trumpet blown by an Angel announcing the third Woe that comes to the wicked.

That should be self-evident; however, some people will argue against Scripture based on their emotionally held belief.

No, Revelation 19:11-21 does not directy relate to 1Th 4:16 - there is no specific and unique event which ties the two; you just make the assertion.

1Th 4:16 is tied to the Day of the Lord.


The Return of Jesus Christ with all His saints in Revelation 19 is in fact The Day of The Lord!

 

[teleiosis]

One, it doesn't say with all His Saints. It is with the army of Heaven that Jesus goes out to do battle.. We are the Bride which sounds like the Great Multitude cheering on our champion. It is from a man-based perspective that you would think you would take on the armies of the world.

The battle at Rev 19 is part of the coda of the book of Revelation. After two explanatory chapters, John resumes the narrative beginning with the end of the one 'seven' with the battle at Armageddon formerly mentioned at the end of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapter 16. By chapter 16 in the account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16, the Harvest occurs PRIOR to the Bowl Judgments. This means it also happens prior to Armageddon.

1Th 3:13 does not save you either. In this "observer-true" perspective of one of the Elect still alive and left upon the earth (1Th 4:15) they see Jesus coming with all those souls who have been resurrected from death.

Rev 19 is NOT the Day of the Lord; it never identifies it as such in the Bible. There is no sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord with Rev 19. That happened previously in the one 'seven' and in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 with the sixth Seal.

You have no Bible verse stating that the Last Trumpet calling us home is the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath. They are two different Trumpets sounded by different persons and for different purposes. All you have is you insisting that God needs billions of saved souls to take on hundreds of millions. God is mightier than that.

 

[JLB]

All you have is you insisting that God needs billions of saved souls to take on hundreds of millions.


What in the world are talking about? You must have me confused with someone else. I never said that.


I simply gave you scripture. In your gross presumption you assumed this!


Revelation 19 is The Return of Jesus Christ. If want to argue with clear plain scripture, that is your problem.

 

[teleiosis]

Rev 19 does not say the whole of the Church goes to fight the war; however, you wrote in relation to the Rev 19 Army by citing those who are resurrected from death as being one and the same.

You said that Christ returns with ALL His Saints in Rev 19.


You would have ALL the Saints join Christ as His army at Armageddon. That would be billions of souls over thousands of years. God does not need the Church to win His battle. It is the Elect who are cheering Jesus and His Army on in Rev 19:1; we are that Great Multitude (except for those of us who will become martyrs, the fifth Seal condition is not yet met at the time the batle of Armageddon is getting underway).

As the example of Gideon shows, God does not need thousands to take on tens of thousands, but only 300 armed with (get this) torches, clay jars and trumpets. That's some form of armory which our U.S. Army wouldn't think to use...

The 144,000 are in that Army because in Rev 14:4, they go wherever the Lamb goes, so, if the Lamb goes to war: so do they. I will put this to you in even more restrictive terms: the 144,000 ARE God's Army. It is they who climb over the walls of Jerusalem in Joel 2 on the Day of the Lord. Six of those soldiers are in Ezekiel chapter 9. Jesus is Lord; as a real man, He would not take His Bride to fight His war.

You said Rev 19 is the Return of Christ, however, that battle in Rev 19 relates back to the time when the battle is about to be fought in Rev 16.

However again, by the time that battle is about to be fought in Rev 16, the RETURN of Christ on the clouds - just like 1Th 4:16 - has already happened before ANY of the Wrath of God goes out with the Bowl Judgments (which are the last - the revealed third Woe) with His parousia on the clouds in Rev 14:14-16.

If you want to argue with "clear" plain Scripture; that is your problem.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

No, Revelation 19:11-21 does not directy relate to 1Th 4:16 - there is no specific and unique event which ties the two; you just make the assertion.

1Th 4:16 is tied to the Day of the Lord. That includes the specific and unique event: the sun/moon/star sign. This ties 1Th 4:16 to Mt 24:29-31 and Rev 6:12-14.

The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord and this comes after the shortened Great Tribulation which decimates the Elect to near extinction.
This is caused by two laws put into effect with the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 and Rev 13:14-15).
Subsequent to that, is the Great Tribulation (Rev 13:15-17 and Mt 24:21.)
The Great Tribulation does not last the whole of the rest of the one 'seven.' (Mt 24:22)
Immediately after Great Tribulation comes the sun/moon/star sign (Mt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-14)
Then Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30, 1Th 4:16, and Rev 14:14) Revelation chapters 13-16 are a parallel account to chapters 4-11.
Then is the gathering of the Elect who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:15) from the earth (1Th 4:16, Mt 24:31, and Rev 14:15-16).
This gathering Harvest of souls then results in the Great Multitutde arriving in Heaven BEFORE the Scroll is opened and the first Trumpet goes forth (Rev 7:9-17).

The Day of the Lord Rapture happens before the Day of the Lord Wrath.

The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the Bowl Judgments after the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds the third Woe.
The battle at Armageddon in Rev 16 comes after the Harvest of Rev 14.
The battle at Armageddon comes at the end of the one 'seven.'

The Day of the Lord comes before the battle at Armageddon.

Your case is not proved, mine is. Post-Trib is a belief; it is not Scripturally sound. The Last Day is when the Church Age ends. It comes on an unknown Day.

Now I have provided plenty of Scripture for the sequencing of a Pre-Wrath Rapture.
I have provided plenty of Scripture detailing the Trumpets.
The Last Trumpet call by God calling the Elect home is not the seventh Trumpet blown by an Angel announcing the third Woe that comes to the wicked.

That should be self-evident; however, some people will argue against Scripture based on their emotionally held belief.

First, there's no difference between a trumpet blown by a messenger (Greek: aggelos, transliterated "angel") and a trumpet blown by God. What general has EVER blown his own trumpet?! There are buglers who do his bidding, but the general is not the bugler!

Second, the "trumpets" or "shofars" are WARNING TRUMPETS, like air-raid sirens! Nor does one begin after the previous one ends. They are blown over-lappingly, each adding its voice to the din. What may be good news and a pleasant sound of rescue to the ears of the Jews will NOT sound all that pleasant to those who may have come against Isra'el in battle! That will also be true throughout the Millennium. Some have suggested that it will be a "time of peace," but that is only true for the Isra'elis and for those who were siding with Isra'el.

Third, you are assuming that if believers were still on the earth during those days that they would also be participating as a recipient of God's Wrath. That's a false assumption. God has consistently shown in history that He protects His people THROUGH His Wrath on others! With examples such as Noach and his family, Lowt and his children, the Children of Isra'el in the land of Goshen within Egypt, Dani'el spending the night in the lions' den, and the short stay of Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego in the furnace, God consistently protects His loved ones, regardless what happens to those incurring His Wrath.

 

[teleiosis]

Wrong on all three accounts Retro.

1. The Bible says it is the (Last) Trumpet call of God and Paul says Jesus personally comes down (1Th 4:16). In the Gospel account no less an authority than Jesus says:
Mt 24:31 And he (the Son of Man) will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2. Not all Trumpets are warning trumpets. In Exodus 19:13 is God warning the Hebrews to prepare to be massacred? No! The First Trumpet was an assembly Trumpet!
Likewise, the Last Trumpet is an assembly Trumpet. So is the Great Trumpet sounded in the Millennium.

3. tereo ek does NOT confer physical protection. We can extrapolate from John 17:15 to the Disciples who all except John died horrible deaths at the hands of unbelievers.
Noah and Lot were saved FROM Wrath; they were physically removed before God's Wrath came. The evidence I gave in the beginning says we are saved from God's Wrath - not through it. Now the Remnant is shepherded through God's Wrath, but then they live on the earth the whole time. The Rapture happens before any of God's Wrath falls with the opening of the Scroll. We are in the barn of Heaven while the wicked burn in the field of this world.