The Latest on Calvin

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't know why everyone is against John Calvin.\
It's like he hurt everyone somehow and now everyone wants to get even.

Give the guy a break, he is/was a church leader.
That's more than we can say for most of us.

I'm starting a "I Like Jack" campaign.
Anyone with me?

 

[farouk]

I don't know why everyone is against John Calvin.\
It's like he hurt everyone somehow and now everyone wants to get even.

Give the guy a break, he is/was a church leader.
That's more than we can say for most of us.

I'm starting a "I Like Jack" campaign.
Anyone with me?

First I would want to read Ephesians carefully before deciding whether I like Calvin. People who just dismiss him should maybe first see what the Epistle to the Ephesians (not to mention John 6) really says.

 

[Nancy]

I don't know why everyone is against John Calvin.\
It's like he hurt everyone somehow and now everyone wants to get even.

Give the guy a break, he is/was a church leader.
That's more than we can say for most of us.

I'm starting a "I Like Jack" campaign.
Anyone with me?

Hi Rollo,
Ummm...you can count me out of that one...enjoy!

 

[FHII]

Well, ok... Here comes my Calvin commentary again!

People hate him because of Calvinism. But he wasn't a modern day Calvinist. He didn't even come up with that TULIP thingy. He is best known for his stance on predestination, which 1. Is Biblical as he discussed it in HIS writings; 2. He draws heavily on Augustine; and 3. Despite his support of it, he was a very pius guy who (as far as I can find) actually coined the phrase, "Grace isn't a license to sin". Yea... He actually wrote that! And might be the first to do so!

What folks don't realise is that he wrote a mere 3 chapters in one of over 50 books about that topic. He didn't spend a lot of time on the topic! Today, people equate him with predestination; which is like saying Benjamin Franklin is in the swimming hall of fame and saying that's his biggest acheivement!

"Jack" wrote meticulous commentaries on almost all books of the Bible. When he did, he related them to his present times. He was a very sharp witted guy, only out done by Martin Luther and in my opinion, Tertillian.

He did all that, by the way, without Google. Without search engines. He exhausted cross referencing scripture without our tools. Frankly, he could bury us in a debate without using Google!

And that's what I really admire about any Bible scholar before the year 2000. They actually had to know before they looked it up.

Now, what I don't like about him is that I fully believe he was never dedicated. He spoke against the Pope but would hobnob with the Pope's priests. We was for change, but he sealed the death of Michael Servatus. He could've prevented it. This, he was part of the Inquisition.

But... Before anyone goes hating Jack, you ought to at least read something he wrote. I don't think many have.

 

[CNKW3]

First I would want to read Ephesians carefully before deciding whether I like Calvin. People who just dismiss him should maybe first see what the Epistle to the Ephesians (not to mention John 6) really says.

Was does it really say?

 

[CNKW3]

First I would want to read Ephesians carefully before deciding whether I like Calvin. People who just dismiss him should maybe first see what the Epistle to the Ephesians (not to mention John 6) really says.

The key to the book of Ephesians is the phrase....”in Christ”, “in him”. Look at the first chapter...
All spiritual blessings are found...in Christ vs 3
Those chosen, those predestined, are found .....in him vs 4-6 if you are not “in him” you are not one of the chosen.
Redemption through the blood is found....in Christ vs 7
The elect whether Jew or gentile are found...in Christ. Vs 10
Those who obtained an inheritance are......in Christ vs 11
How does one get “in Christ”? Baptized into Christ. Ro 6:3, Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 12:13
God does not just put you “in Christ”.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know why everyone is against John Calvin.\
It's like he hurt everyone somehow and now everyone wants to get even.

Give the guy a break, he is/was a church leader.
That's more than we can say for most of us.

I'm starting a "I Like Jack" campaign.
Anyone with me?

It might be the burning of people that disagreed with him at the stake. How many people do you know that burn people alive that are really very likeable? It tends to be like the elephant in the room...especially if you are being tied to a stake yourself.

 

[Windmill Charge]

It might be the burning of people that disagreed with him at the stake. How many people do you know that burn people alive that are really very likeable? It tends to be like the elephant in the room...especially if you are being tied to a stake yourself.

And yet he did not burn anybody at the stake. He was the religous leader not the civil leader. He had very little influence over the civil courts.

 

[Episkopos]

And yet he did not burn anybody at the stake. He was the religous leader not the civil leader. He had very little influence over the civil courts.

"Calvin justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from killing them. Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin authorized beheadings, death by fire, and torture rather than exercise patience and kindness with competing theologians. His enforcement of biblical doctrines looked more like ISIS than Jesus.

Are you being naive?

The Inquisition didn't kill people itself either. It had the civil authorities do so.

The popes sanctioned the crusades. Did they kill anybody themselves?

read some history....

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know why everyone is against John Calvin.\
It's like he hurt everyone somehow and now everyone wants to get even.

Give the guy a break, he is/was a church leader.
That's more than we can say for most of us.

I'm starting a "I Like Jack" campaign.
Anyone with me?

Maybe it's because you don't know John Calvin?
You could read this link...
https://www.biography.com/religious-figure/john-calvin

One day, when you have time, maybe you could read the Institutes of John Calvin
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion.pdf


You should really read the Institutes...it's very interesting.
There's a part there that explains how God picks some so they could THINK they're saved....but then, at some time, he pulls the rug from under them.

Yes, a very loving and merciful God indeed.

You know the TULIP:
Do you agree with it?

T : Total Depravity ---man is totally depraved and unable to lift Himself up to even consider God...so God has to do this for him.

U: Unconditional Election --- God picks who will be saved and who will be lost. The person has NO CHOICE as to either. AND, it's based on NOTHIING, man cannot decide he wants to be saved. Only God gets to decide.

L: Limited Atonement --- Jesus died ONLY for the persons God has destined to be saved..NOt for the whole world or for anyone that would like to be saved, as John 3:16 states.

I: Irresistable Grace --- You can't resist God. You could only want what He MAKES you want...and in a very tricky way...read the institutes to find out how.

P: Perseverance of the Saints: We get OSAS from this. But it's a bit misunderstood. IOW, those that persevere to the end will be saved. So, basically, no one REALLY knows if they'll be saved because they have to wait till the end. This is a little complicated and this is all I'll say on this.

So,,, you still like John Calvin because he was the head of a church?
You must LOVE the Pope then.

 

[rockytopva]

"Calvin justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from killing them. Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin authorized beheadings, death by fire, and torture rather than exercise patience and kindness with competing theologians. His enforcement of biblical doctrines looked more like ISIS than Jesus.

Are you being naive?

The Inquisition didn't kill people itself either. It had the civil authorities do so.

The popes sanctioned the crusades. Did they kill anybody themselves?

read some history....

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin... After toasting Michael Servetus

In 1908 a monument to Servetus was erected in the French city of Annemasse, some three miles from the spot where he died. An inscription reads: “Michel Servetus, . . . geographer, physician, physiologist, contributed to the welfare of humanity by his scientific discoveries, his devotion to the sick and the poor, and the indomitable independence of his intelligence and his conscience. . . . His convictions were invincible. He made a sacrifice of his life for the cause of the truth.”

 

[GodsGrace]

The key to the book of Ephesians is the phrase....”in Christ”, “in him”. Look at the first chapter...
All spiritual blessings are found...in Christ vs 3
Those chosen, those predestined, are found .....in him vs 4-6 if you are not “in him” you are not one of the chosen.
Redemption through the blood is found....in Christ vs 7
The elect whether Jew or gentile are found...in Christ. Vs 10
Those who obtained an inheritance are......in Christ vs 11
How does one get “in Christ”? Baptized into Christ. Ro 6:3, Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 12:13
God does not just put you “in Christ”.

How do you know YOU are IN HIM?
I know because I chose to be IN HIM.
But how do you know???
And where are all these predestination verses?

 

[farouk]

Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 are relevant.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Calvin justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from killing them. Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin authorized beheadings, death by fire, and torture rather than exercise patience and kindness with competing theologians. His enforcement of biblical doctrines looked more like ISIS than Jesus.

Are you being naive?

The Inquisition didn't kill people itself either. It had the civil authorities do so.

The popes sanctioned the crusades. Did they kill anybody themselves?

read some history....

Amen to all.
The Institutes make our loving God to be a monster.
And, BTW, we are also criticized by concentrating on His Love....
We,,,the weak ones, that cannot accept the God of Calvin.

Did John not say that GOD IS LOVE?
1 John 4:8b

If God is not love...
we should fear death.
(and life).

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 are relevant.

We've already been through Ephesians 1 and 2.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

[farouk]

We've already been through Ephesians 1 and 2.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

The point is to receive what those chapters say about the working of sovereign grace among sinners; this is the first stage, rather that deciding to beat up on Calvin - as some might wish to do - and then try to find some Scriptural support for doing so. (This is how I would look at it! :) )

 

[GodsGrace]

The point is to receive what those chapters say about the working of sovereign grace among sinners; this is the first stage, rather that deciding to beat up on Calvin - as some might wish to do - and then try to find some Scriptural support for doing so. (This is how I would look at it! :) )

I only spoke about Calvin because it seems the O.P. doesn't know him very well.
I don't speak against Calvin...although he was a rather cold and unloving man and to me doesn't seem to have behaved like a Christian person.

What I'm against is TULIP...and all that calvinism stands for.
I've been banned from forums for my outspokenness..
do I care?
No.
Because that theology is horrendous and has no place in the Church Jesus set up on this earth.

What do you want me to post?
I've been asking for scripture.

Here's what I'll post:
John 3:16

Go ahead.
Make my day.

 

[farouk]

I love John 3.16 too.:)

 

[GodsGrace]

@farouk

BTW brother...you're a friend and our disagreement will not get in the way of that.
But I'll never agree with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I love John 3.16 too.:)

Stop smiling and tell me why.
:)