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The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by ewq1938, Apr 6, 2022.

  1. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles Active Member

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    This thread is not about how God is going to bring an end to the current order but about whether or not the thousand years mentioned in the Revelation will follow it.

    I don't particularly look forward to the Day of the LORD, but I do look forward to what will follow it. I've provided ample proof that the New Testament never uses the word zao (used in Revelation 20:4) in reference to people who are not alive in their bodies, and I've provided ample proof that the word anastasis used in reference to those who are zao after their beheading, is always and only used in reference to the bodily Resurrection in the New Testament.

    The thousand years in Revelation 20 is said in that context.

    I could also provide ample scriptural quotes that teach us that Satan, though utterly defeated at Calvary, is no more bound (yet) than he is thrown into the lake of fire yet.

    @ewq1938 has also provided ample proof that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is literal.

    The proof is flatly ignored by those who must interpret Peter's thousand years and Revelation's thousand years metaphorically or symbolically, i.e for the sake of Amillennialism.

    PS: How much exactly does any of this matter to us now? Will it matter to us in the New Heavens and New Earth?
     
  2. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty hard to have a Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years on this earth after the return of Jesus, when this earth is dissolved by the Lord's fire in judgement at his return, as you have been shown several times

    Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire (The End)
     
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  3. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

    "Deceive The Nations" To Battle

    The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

    If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

    Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

    Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

    Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

    (Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
    1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
    which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    (Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

    (Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
    12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    So what about 1 Corinthians 15:44-47???
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Can you not get the point Lot had sons by his own daughters? Would you identify yourself as a Moabite or an Ammonite?
     
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    No, those living on the earth in the camp of the saints for 1,000 years keep living on the earth. Those living in Paradise during that time will continue living in the New Jerusalem.

    The majority of the church is not even currently living on the earth. The church currently resides in Paradise sitting with Jesus. Do you distinguish a church on earth separate from a church on earth, that will never be joined together at the Second Coming?

    Where does it ever claim the camp of the saints is ever part of the church in Paradise? The camp of the saints experienced a resurrection from being physically dead. Is having one's head cut off literal or figurative. What spiritual point is meant with one's physical head being cut off? This camp of the saints is on the earth, because there is a group marching across earth and surrounding this camp.

    How do you explain this third group called the camp of the saints that were physically resurrected at the start of this 1,000 years. Is this a spiritual grave yard and not physical humans in this camp of the saints? Even this group marching against the camp of the saints just prior to Satan being loosed had no interest in attacking their fellow citizens while they were physically alive in this camp of the saints.

    In fact these people were direct descendants of this camp of the saints. These people were the offspring. They did not just happen to appear one day. The camp of the saints were the only people on earth at the start of this 1,000 years. No one would exist unless they were offspring. All on earth were a third group. The dead were dead for 1,000 years. The church was in Paradise for 1,000 years. Those starting out in verses 4 and 5 is the camp of the saints. They have offspring for 1,000 years, which spread out all over the earth for 1,000 years. That is the whole context of Revelation 20. And you complain because I do not understand context. Should we listen to Amil who have totally re-written the whole chapter in their own image/imagination?

    Having offspring is what happens on earth naturally and with common sense interpretation. You cannot have humans marching across the earth without many humans being born and having offspring for 1,000 years. Since when has there been a single location camp of the saints where no one has ever died during the last 1992 years? You claim this is just the church, but this cannot be the church. The church has no central location called the camp of the saints. The church is local believers all over the earth. The "government" does not round up all the church and place them into a concentration camp of the saints. Whose scenario fits best in Revelation 20? A contrived amil rendition of history or a natural human condition yet to happen?

    The whole point of Satan being loosed is to gather protesters. No one was protesting during the 1,000 years. The iron rod rule would not allow protest, as that would be construed as rebellion against an iron rod rule. A rule that crushes dissent like pottery being crushed. Explain to me how the iron rod rule has crushed all opposition to the church in the last 1992 years. Explain to me how no one has immediately been killed for disobedience in the last 1992 years. Sin has ruled on earth in your iron rod rule of Christ, so this iron rod rule has failed, because the enemies of God have flourished during the fulness of the Gentiles. So the fulness of the Gentiles could never be the iron rod rule of Jesus the Prince where sin and Satan literally have no power or influence at all.
     
  7. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    LOL. Not even close. But, go on with your delusions if you want.
     
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  8. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    Was it too much trouble for you to just quote the one before it, so that we don't have to search for it? None of your supposed contradictions are valid. This thread is a joke.
     
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  9. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    You missed the point. Do you even make any effort at all to understand what others are saying? What I'm saying is that word is not used to refer to the act of being resurrected itself. But the word anazao is. So, why wasn't the word anazao used in Revelation 20:4 like it was in verse 5 to describe the rest of the dead living again?

    That's saying the person will be alive. It's not saying "and she shall be resurrected". The word zao does not mean to be resurrected. It means to live or to be alive. When a resurrection itself is referred to, a different word like anazao would be used. That's what you're not getting.

    LOL. This is rich coming from you, a person who repeatedly misunderstands what people are telling him. You misunderstand what people are telling you just like you misunderstand scripture.
     
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  10. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    Jesus said one time is coming when all of the dead will be raised, not two. You are choosing to twist John 5:28-29 to fit your view of Revelation 20 instead of allowing the very straightforward text of John 5:28-29 to aid your understanding of Revelation 20.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
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  11. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    That's correct, there is one future tome that all the dead will be resurrected, there are two groups on this last day resurrection, 1. saved righteous, 2. unsaved wicked
     
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  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 25 only deals with humans alive on earth at the time Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem. Why are there souls in sheol? Is that not already the judgment of those who never acknowledged Jesus as King?

    You make no sense that the church currently in Paradise has to wait until the Second Coming to even enjoy Paradise. You claim you do not accept soul sleep, but you literally make souls wait in limbo until the Second Coming. You make them wait until the Second Coming to actually figure out if they are these sheep and goats? You do not take anything literally here: not Jesus, the angels, a literal throne, nor humans literally still alive at the Second Coming.

    Matthew 25:31 is not even about the physical dead in sheol or in Paradise. So it can only be about a specific group alive on earth at the Second Coming. Is this throne symbolic of the rapture? How are the goats raptured to stand judgment in Paradise?

    Either these are literal humans on earth being judged by the iron rod rule of Jesus the Prince, or you agree Salvation is by human works: "as ye have done it unto the least of these ye have done it unto me". You are literally basing Salvation on works, and not because of the Atonement of the Cross.

    The judgment seat of Christ is only for the redeemed not the lost. There the redeemed will recieve their reward. Matthew 25 is not the judgment seat of Christ for the redeemed.

    Matthew 25 is literally about Jesus as Prince on the earth, on a throne, in Jerusalem. The Second Coming brought Jesus to the Mount of Olives. Jesus will set up His throne. The earth will not be burned up, just man's works. The sheep and goats will be gathered out of all nations. There will be humans still on earth after the sheep and goats are gone. Matthew 25 is not for everyone. It is not for the church in Paradise. It is not for those who later follow Satan and receive the mark. It is only for those humans that are sheep and those who are goats. Those humans will no longer exist on earth as the angels removed their souls from Adam's flesh and blood. The sheep will return at the start of the Millennium and rule on earth with Christ during the 1,000 years, they are not the church. The goats will wait in the LOF.

    Matthew 25 is not the GWT. It is not about physically dead people. They are pronounced sheep, after their souls are removed. They were neither sheep nor goats prior to this judgment. That is only symbolism. Being a sheep or goat is their eternal status, not their status on earth before they stood before Jesus in Jerusalem.

    Sitting on the throne is literal. Jesus as Prince is literal. The angels are literal. The determination of Jesus was a figurative pronouncement of God's perspective in God's elected choice of who is a sheep or a goat. Neither made a conscious decision of their eternal status. These people are whom Calvinist would define as elect. Prior to the Second Coming, they had no clue their life would end up one way or the other. How do I know that? Because they had to ask why Jesus chose them or rejected them.

    To become a Christian you do not one day stand before God and ask, "Why am I a Christian?". Not to mention that at the Second Coming the church, Christians, are actively expecting a return, not waiting until God decides if they are the church. This separation of sheep and goats is limited to humans still alive on earth after the Second Coming.

    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

    This happens after the Second Coming. There are still humans alive on earth. The Son is literally Jesus as Prince. The angels are literally angels. The throne is literally the throne in Jerusalem. The humans involved are literally physically alive. Their eternal status is literal. They are not the church, because the church met the Son in the air, before the Son sat on the throne. Salvation is a literal choice to accept God by faith, and once Jesus sits on the throne it is no longer by faith. It is literally rejecting God in person to the face of the one sitting on the GWT.

    "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    The sheep and goats appear before the Lamb sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. At the same time the GWT is seen on earth. Salvation by faith is no longer available. All, after the Second Coming, on earth can see the GWT. This earth will be totally changed by fire at the Second Coming. No one will have an excuse. Not even the deceived. People will not last 7 years, and not even 3.5 years under the Trumpets and Thunders. That is why this time will be cut short. But all of Adam's flesh and blood will die physically by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

    The dead will remain dead and stand as dead before the GWT after creation no longer exists. The sheep will rule and reign on earth, and then keep living on the new earth.
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 65 has death. The Millennium is Isaiah 65. It has all those nice things you describe.

    Explain to me how Revelation 20 is not physical. If you claim it as the here and now that is physical, no? You are being hypocritical if Revelation 20 is physical because it is now, and not physical after the Second Coming.
     
  14. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    You should be an agnosmillennialist like you were before until you get 2 Peter 3 figured out, in my opinion. I don't see any possible way that 2 Peter 3 can be reconciled with Premillennialism.

    Without exception the Greek words translated as "first resurrection" are only used to describe Christ's resurrection. Sure, it's only used in one other verse (Acts 26:23), but it's still true.

    That doesn't mean it can only be used that way. Those who are physically dead are still zao spiritually.

    That's only your opinion, so you should not act like you're proving anything here. The word zao is used to refer to people being alive. Are those who are physically dead but their souls are in heaven not alive? Of course they are.

    I looked at the scripture comparisons in the images you shared and I truly have no idea of what point your were intending to make there.

    Right.

    That's just your opinion.

    The only other verse that references the first anastasis is Acts 26:23 and it's in reference to Christ's bodily resurrection. So, His resurrection is the first bodily resurrection. That's where we need to start when determining what Revelation 20:4-6 is about. When you change the first resurrection into something besides what scripture says it is (Christ's resurrection) then you start going off the rails. Revelation 20:6 talks about those who have part in the first resurrection. That should be understood as having part in Christ's resurrection. How does one have part in His resurrection? By being bodily resurrected? No, by being spiritually saved and going from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

    Not sure what your point is here.

    We've already talked about the binding of Satan a number of times. I hope you know my understanding of it by now so that I don't have to explain it to you yet again, but I can't be sure since I know that I've told you many times before that I believe the word anastasis is always used in reference to a bodily resurrection and you still forgot about that.

    Yeah, so? The Hebrew word translated as "thousand" in verses like Deuteronomy 7:9 where the word is used to refer to God's promises applying to "a thousand generations" is normally used literally, but it's obviously used figuratively in some verses like Deut 7:9 and Psalm 50:10 which talks about God owning the cattle "on a thousand hills". The idea that chilioi can only be used in a literal sense is false.

    That is absolutely false. When the new heavens and new earth commences, there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain after that. Obviously, there is still death, mourning, crying and pain after the thousand years commences, so what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

    I tried to follow what you're saying here, but I'm not seeing your point. If you look at how the word eîta is used in every other verse in scripture you should see that it's normally used to describe something that occurs immediately or shortly after something else. In the case of 1 Cor 15:22-24, the end will come shortly after Christ returns and the dead in Christ are raised. We know that has to be true because at that time all believers will be changed to be immortal and all unbelievers will be killed (2 Peter 3:10-12, 2 Thess 1:7-9, Matt 24:35-39, Rev 19:17-18). That doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years after that.

    Another thing to consider is that the end of the age will come when Christ returns (Matthew 24:3). And Jesus taught that believers will "shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" at the end of the age (Matt 13:36-43). That indicates that the kingdom will have been delivered to the Father at that point, which lines up with my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:22-24.

    I completely disagree. Determining how God will end the current order is a major factor in determining what follows the return of Christ. If He ends up by burning everything up when Christ returns then that obviously supports Amil. If He does it some other way a long time after that then it would support Premil. So, how can you say that doesn't matter?

    One other thing. Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where you ever answered my question regarding what "the earth" refers to in 2 Peter 3:10. Do you believe it refers to the planet earth or something else? I still don't really know how exactly you currently interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12. I know you said you're not sure, but you seemed to indicate that you currently see it as being figurative language. I don't see how that can be the case, especially if it's referring to the literal heavens and literal planet earth (the surface of earth, at least).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Can you show the verse that claims only one resurrection? Was Lazarus the only resurrection?
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So Jesus did not sit with two angels with Abraham? It was a "sick" deception instead of the real thing? Why do you limit the post resurrected body in creation. Are you saying Jesus cannot exist in eternity outside of time? Are you saying the Word could actually eat food?

    Are you saying Jesus only had Adam's sinful dead corruptible flesh? Jesus had to be changed, and become spiritually reborn, because Jesus was not God? You are placing Jesus as an unregenerated fallen human in need of Salvation.

    You really cannot discern Adam's flesh and blood from a literal physical body without sin, and incorruptible?

    Was Jesus born into Adam's flesh and blood? Why was a virgin involved?

    You are missing the whole point that Jesus lived for over 30 years in a perfect incorruptible physical body. Jesus had no sin nature. Jesus was tempted and did experience life as normal humanity. There is a difference and the same body Jesus had on earth is that tangible physical body, you keep calling "spiritual". Adam's flesh and blood is one body. The spiritual body is what Jesus had for over 30 years. We know it could change, because it changed on the mount of Transfiguration and then went back to normal. Jesus was able to prevent other humans from seeing the full effect of this tangible physical body. Jesus was not a mirage.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  17. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    @Timtofly I have the same response to all of your posts. I have no idea of what you're talking about. That's all I can say in response. Your posts come across as incoherent, rambling nonsense to me. Just being honest. So, I don't have any interest in continuing the discussion with you. Thanks, anyway.
     
  18. Spiritual Israelite

    Spiritual Israelite Active Member

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    Right. And it shows them being resurrected unto two different eternal destinies. That lines up with the passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which show everyone being gathered to be judged at the same time.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member

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    You remain wrong. When a dead person becomes Zao a resurrection took place. You are the one not getting this.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member

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    False. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years" proves a time of a thousand years is inbetween the first group to resurrect and the second group.
     
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