The Morality of Lying

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Wrangler

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A very important topic. Discretion. The Right to Privacy and the social expectation to reveal what one is not obligated to reveal. Simply put, "remaining silent" is not socially acceptable. Then what? Two posts inspired this thread. I'd like to know your thoughts?

Withholding information from those who may have evil intent is not evil in itself, or else God would have made an issue of it.....he did not with Abraham or even when Isaac was in the same situation.

Abraham did not lie...she was his sister....it just wasn’t the whole truth. We are not under obligation to give information to those outside of our brotherhood, who are not entitled to it....especially if it would mean a threat to our lives.

Half truth is still a lie.
Was it wrong, would God have been angry with not telling the Nazi's where Ann Frank's family was? What about State and industrial secrets? I am convinced a fair reading of Scripture shows lying was repeatedly rewarded.
  1. 1st was the midwives at the time of Pharaoh.
  2. A Spirit was commanded by God to carry out his plan to deceive Ahab's 400 prophets.
  3. Another time was when God himself "hardened" Pharaoh's heart.
  4. An Angel of the Lord confused the minds of Israel's enemies, causing them to fight one another.
  5. An act of civil disobedience was Daniel continuing to pray to YHWH but not telling the king. This proves Biblically that one ought not always obey those in authority. For God had saved Daniel multiple times after that.
  6. A 3rd time was the prostitute Rahab honored for lying to protect the Hebrew spies.
  7. David lied about his sanity. Yet, him being anointed to be king was not withdrawn as it was with Saul.
  8. An act of civil disobedience was Joseph and Mary escaping to Egypt to escape the purge of males < 2 years old, proving Biblically that one ought not always obey those in authority.
  9. The marriage of Jacob to Leah was fraudulent, a lie. Yet, it was honored by Jacob, who agreed to labor for many more years to marry the woman he originally agreed to marry.
  10. Jesus, himself, said if you destroy this temple, I will rebuild it in 3 days knowing FULL well that his audience took his words to be referring to Solomon's temple. He was later given all authority in heaven and earth.
  11. Jesus, himself, said a girl was only sleeping who had actually died. He was later given all authority in heaven and earth.
  12. Although denying the Son of God 3 times, he was forgiven by Christ in the flesh 3 times AND rewarded with doing the Lord's work of feeding His Sheep.
 

MatthewG

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Nice work putting all that together. I’m not opposed to lying. I admit that I do still lie. It’s a wonderful thing to know God looks at the heart and its intentions.

Scripture: 1 Samuel 16:1-13 (NRSV) “The Lord does not see as mortals see; they look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
 

Patrick1966

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My grandmother had dementia and was in a nursing home. Grandma asked about her sister. My mother was honest and told her the truth - her sister died years earlier. Grandma was horrified.

I told Mom, next time, tell grandma her sister is doing well. And that's what she did. After all, why make grandma have to relive her sister's death continually?
 

Aunty Jane

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My grandmother had dementia and was in a nursing home. Grandma asked about her sister. My mother was honest and told her the truth - her sister died years earlier. Grandma was horrified.

I told Mom, next time, tell grandma her sister is doing well. And that's what she did. After all, why make grandma have to relive her sister's death continually?

The husband of a friend of mine had Lewy Body Dementia with Parkinson's Disease, and he experienced delusions which were as real as if they were actually taking place.
He once told me that there was an accident up ahead as I was driving him to an appointment.....he spoke of fire engines and police directing traffic and to be careful as we drove past it.....there was nothing there, but I pretended to be careful so as not to alarm him, saying that the fire brigade do such a good job. There would have been no point in arguing with him because it would just have upset him....there are times when not telling the truth is a kindness.
 

Aunty Jane

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Nice work putting all that together. I’m not opposed to lying. I admit that I do still lie. It’s a wonderful thing to know God looks at the heart and its intentions.

Scripture: 1 Samuel 16:1-13 (NRSV) “The Lord does not see as mortals see; they look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
Some untruths are not told maliciously.
Some half truths are told to protect others....some are designed to condemn others....as you said, God knows the heart and the motive intended.
 

Wrangler

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there are times when not telling the truth is a kindness.
Maybe this is the White Lie @MatthewG was talking about. My former pastor (she retired) wrote a book called Grace and Truth and delved into this notion we ought to be bound by Grace 1st, along with truth, which means avoiding unnecessarily hurtful truth.

Your post in the OP goes beyond that, touching on the wisdom to not allow evil to use our morals (propensity to not lie) against us. I ask you to forgive me. If I were in Jerusalem all those years ago and happened upon Herod's men on the hunt for the prophecied Messiah, I would have misdirected them, as Rahab misdirected troops generations before that.

How are we to feel about not telling the truth to be kind or not telling the truth to allow evil to flourish? I don't believe we ought to feel guilty but doing God's work. My 88 year old friend pointed out that we are supposed to tell the truth in love. Yes, when speaking the truth. (In comparison and I know my weakness, my tendency is to speak the truth in anger). I think Christians are uncomfortable acknowledging the wisdom of not allowing evil to use our morals (propensity to not lie) against us EVEN THOUGH there are many examples from Scripture as the OP listed.

I can hardly imagine a more obvious way to resist evil as Christ said than avoiding unnecessarily hurtful truth that would surely result from allow evil to use our morals (propensity to not lie) against us.
 

Wrangler

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I know my response to when my chubby wife asks "Do I look fat in this?" and it won't be honest!
I have pointed out to my wife the limits of women wanting a truly honest relationship. When a wife asks her husband if the shirt or dress makes her look fat and he says "No, it's your fat that makes you look fat," she's not going to be all happy about such honesty. :spring:
 

Stan B

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I know my response to when my chubby wife asks "Do I look”
I am familiar with that scenario: A young girl gets a new dress and a new hairdo.

“How do I look?” Even if it’s really ugly, I don’t have a problem giving her a loving review rather than the truth,

Notice that that Bible says:

16You shall not bear false witness AGAINST your neighbor.
 
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Wrangler

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Notice that that Bible says:

16You shall not bear false witness AGAINST your neighbor.
Great point! Most people gloss over the fact that lying, in general is not the commandment, which actually is a prohibition against committing perjury. This explains why both are explicitly mentioned separately in Proverbs.

Proverbs 6:16-19
Contemporary English Version
16 There are six or seven
kinds of people
the Lord doesn't like:
17 Those who are too proud
or tell lies or murder,
18 those who make evil plans
or are quick to do wrong,
19 those who tell lies in court
or stir up trouble
in a family.
 
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strepho

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Epistle John chapter 3. Habitual lying is sin. Were in the flesh body, its sinful. As Christian people we repent from time to time. Those who live habitual lifestyles don't care, and won't repent. Proverbs tells us to defend the defenseless. God knows the secrets of the heart. If someone misled the nazi's about ann frank. God is fair. God judges by motives and desires. Satan is the one who starts these wars. God is the author of peace. Near future, satan as antichrist will come 6th trump, peacefully to Jerusalem, claiming to be messiah. Revelation chapter 13, whole world, except God's elect, will be deceived by antichrist lies and deception. Yet satan is the one who starts wars.
 

St. SteVen

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I can hardly imagine a more obvious way to resist evil as Christ said than avoiding unnecessarily hurtful truth that would surely result from allow evil to use our morals (propensity to not lie) against us.
People are so quick to judge a misstatement as a lie. (bearing false witness)
A real lie is a deceitful statement made with the intent of malicious self-interest in mind.
 
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