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The Most Important Fact About Jesus

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by bigape, Jun 25, 2010.

  1. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    On another thread, I have been talking about how trying to be saved by good works, will send you to hell, but this isn’t the only false teaching that will rob you of salvation.

    The most important Characteristic about our Lord Jesus Christ, is the fact that He is God.
    (Always has been and always will be.)
    This is such an important Doctrine, that the Bible is filled with thousands of references to this fact, yet there are “religious people”, who refuse to accept it, to their own destruction.

    Lets start off with one of the more pointed Scriptures in this area........
    1 John 2:22
    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

    This is “not” talking about, “the Antichrist”(the future one world leader), but an antichrist Spirit , that is spreading all over the world, in these last days.

    This Spirit will lie to people about who Jesus really is, sending them to hell.
  2. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    that is not a good scripture if you are trying to prove Jesus is God for a few reasons. The scripture doesnt say Jesus is God, it says he is the Messiah.

    'Christ' means 'Messiah' which means 'annointed one'

    People didnt annoint themselves, they were annointed by someone with higher authority to perform a certain task. Kings were annointed by prophets at Gods direction in order to lead the nation for instance....they did not annoint themselves to be king, they were chosen for the task.

    Jesus was annointed by God therefore the verse is speaking of two individuals, not one.
    truthquest likes this.
  3. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    HUH??? [​IMG] I thought only the unrepentant wicked goes to hell. You don't think that God wants us to do anything good?
  4. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    There are four things one must do to gain salvation.
    Matt 2
    23And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
    Believe that Jesus is the Christ Son of the Living God .


    Matthew 3
    1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Repent means to Turn and to Change. Repentance is more than asking for forgivness . Repentance is actually changing your ways to follow and obey Christ.

    3. Be Baptized
    13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
    14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
    15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
    16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Baptism represents the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ. Your sins are washed in the sacrifice of his life. The Shedding of His blood.

    4. Receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
    and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    Matt 28 : 18
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    After Baptism you receive the holy Spirit . Christ In you.

    If you belong to Christ and you obey Gods Laws, Everything goes hand in hand. You cannot have faith with out deeds. I hope this helps If we belong to Christ it is in our nature to do good deeds. When we fail which we do over and over he forgives us. However we love god so we obey him. He wants us to obey him b/c he knows what will keep us safe.
  5. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hi Pegg

    Thanks for the heads up:

    So what your saying, is that even the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, won’t convince people that Jesus is God........
    Very interesting.
    You also said.......
    Well that is true, but even though Jesus and God, are two individuals, doesn’t mean that they together, are not God......
    1 John 5:7
    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    and the Lord Himself also said......
    John 10:30
    “I and [my] Father are one.”

    You know, the problem here isn’t a lack of Scripture, that proves that Jesus is God, it is a flat refusal to accept this fact, regardless of what the Bible says.

    Why would anyone refuse to believe something, that was repeatedly made crystal clear in Scripture.

    The answer is, their religion or their religious ideas, come before the Bible.
    Therefore my objective has changed:
    I am no longer going to prove that Jesus is God, because most of you will not accept that fact, anyway.
    What I am now going to do is prove, your total disregard for the Bible.

    Many of you, are only able to sleep at night, because you tell yourselves that you are true believers, when in fact you don’t believe in anything.
    (Don’t you realize that you can’t claim to be Christians, while rejecting the Bible!)
    Now I know that some of you will say, “I do believe the Bible, but it doesn’t say that Jesus is God.”
    Fair enough

    But I bet, that even if I could find a verse of Scripture, where God Himself, is calling Jesus God, that you would still reject it.
    Oh, here is that verse.......
    Hebrews 1:8
    “But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
  6. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Hi bigape, did you know that 1 John 5:7 is not in any of the oldest Manuscripts, the ones that everyone agree upon as Originals? It was fabricated and added to the King James translation, even though Jerome protested its insertion, since he never saw it in any of his manuscripts either. I would avoid using it as a record of God's testimony.
    Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    If I allow for your line of reasoning, using John 10:30, I too may call myself God, if Christ be in me. Gee, that changes it from triune to googolplexune. Being related to God does not make you God. Being a man's son, does not make the son the father too, even if related. The father is the father, and cannot be the son. Neither can the son be the father. It is absurd, isn't it. It is human reasoning at its best, which is in fact pitiable.

    A few questions. Can God annoint Himself, or must annointing be confered from another source? Jesus was anointed by God, if He was God, He could have just anointed Himself. He didn't cause He couldn't.

    Did not Jesus say He proceeded forth out of the Father? that He was sent by His Father, that He would return to His Father Whom He called "My God"? How can someone "send" themselves, and on what authority? That's unheard of. No one commissions themself for service to God, it is an appointment from the God Who is One. There is only one God, the Father of us all, and one Lord, Who is over all.

    The Bible screams out the fact that there is only One, One, One. Not three-in-one, not one in three, not even two in one. It says unequivecally there is only One God, out of Whom are all things. Period. End of report.

    Was Jesus Divine? He was not born of human spirit, but the power of the Most High God overshadowed His mother and she conceived. And that thing which she conceived was born of Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that is the earnest of our inheritance, that anointed Jesus, that formed the record of God's revelations to us. He most certainly was begotten of God.

    Was He the One Supreme God?

    There is no Scriptural evidence to support the claim that He "was" God. Read the record: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Here it is, summed up and made as plain as peas and corn. Is it unpalatable? A man can receive nothing if it does not come out of heaven.

    No man has seen God, the Son has declared Him. God the Father is spirit, invisible: He never was or ever will be visible to the human eye. Jesus was the express image of the invisible God. See Jesus and you see the Father, for the spirit that animated Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, the Father of spirits. We may acclaim with doubting Thomas, Jesus has become our God. He is entitled to the same honor as the Father is given and demands. He paid dearly by sacrificing His glory as the Creator to come and die for what He created through His God and Father.

    There are those who find theology more satisfying than truth. To believe the Word utterly, and not reason away faith by human arrogance, is an accomplishment that few will attain in this lifetime.
    Ps 82:6 . I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High

    Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    I have it on good authority that those who are called into sonship with the Father are entitled to use consider themselves one with Him. But there is a pecking order in heaven.

  7. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello fivesense

    And thanks for responding.

    You said........
    Yes I did, but it is not true that “everyone agrees”, they agree with the Originals.
    Those oldest manuscripts, are simply that; The oldest.
    (But they are also known as corrupt.)

    There is something called the Textus Receptus(received text), also called the majority text, which is the established Word of God, for the New Testament.

    For hundreds of years, “the Church” fully recognized 1John 5:7, as Holy writ;
    And it wasn’t until 1881, when Wescott & Hort “created” a “new” Greek text for the New Testament, by combining all those “oldest Manuscripts”, into one grand error.

    You were right when you said that “none of the oldest Manuscripts” had 1John 5:7, but what you failed to mention, is that None of those Manuscripts, agree with each other, at all.

    Oh by the way, the Textus Receptus, is also called the majority text, because the vast majority of Manuscripts found, agree with them, and are added to the TR.

    So on one hand, you have the Textus Receptus, that is made up of well over 5000 ancient documents that agree with each other;
    But on the hand, you have a handful documents, that are called the “oldest Manuscripts”(none of which agree with each other), that were “magically” combined by Wescott & Hort, and declared to be “the new, New Testament text”.

    I think that I will stick with the manuscript, that born again believers accepted and trusted for well over 400 years.

    Therefore, I do not doubt, 1John 5:7

    As for Jerome’s opinion; I am sure that the Catholic Church thinks a lot of it, but I don’t.
    And now, for your “interesting” interpretation of John 10:30.....
    You can call yourself God if you want to, but I would be careful, if I were you.

    The Bottom line is, Jesus made it clear that he was God, because He was: And I believe Him.

    I will be responding to "your questions", in a future post.
  8. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello again fivesense

    Your first question..........
    This is a good question, that deserves an answer.

    But first, the only part of your question, that is really a question.....
    “Can God annoint Himself?”

    Of course He can, just as you and I anoint ourselves all the time.
    Whenever we put hand lotion on our hands, we are anointing ourselves with oil.
    Now for your statement........
    “Jesus was anointed by God, if He was God, He could have just anointed Himself. He didn't cause He couldn't.”

    It is true, Jesus was anointed by God........
    Acts 10:38
    “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

    But Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit.

    It is important to this whole conversation, to understand that although the person “Jesus”, was born about 2000 years ago:
    There was more to “Jesus”, than what people saw, back then.

    Jesus was a trichotomy, just like all of us. (Body Soul & Spirit)
    My body, is what you see: My Soul is who I am: And “my” Spirit, is the Holy Spirit.
    (This is the only reason I am able to answer your questions.)

    Jesus’ Body, was what people saw: But His Soul, was “Christ”.
    (That is who He was.)

    And even though “Jesus” was born c.2000 years ago, Christ was never born:
    He has always existed, as the eternal Son of God.

    Many times, Christ showed up in the Old Testament, in a human body(Genesis 18:17-33, Genesis 32:24-32, Joshua 5:13-15, Daniel 3:22-25 et.al.)
    (This is called the preincarnate Christ.)

    Now God the Father, was able to anoint Jesus, because Jesus had left Heaven and came to Earth, and was in a human Body.
  9. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Bigape, would you really be interested in a rebuttal, towards edification, or is it more important to be "right"?
    Those who are immersed in the study of the Greek texts have found the three Ancient Manuscripts to be nearly identical word for word, with editorial and copyist insertions on the margins. They agree with one another fully in all other aspects. It is misleading to provide information about them otherwise.

    1C 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    The scriptures say that the spirit of man is in man, and the spirit of God is not the same. They are different, so the "trichotomy" theory is false.

    The anointing of Jesus of Nazareth came from without, not from within, proving the point that a Higher one was the Source. That indicates difference, not sameness.

    I could not find the phrase "eternal son of God" in the Bible, that is a fabrication of theology and irrelevent, even if it sounds good.

    Prior to His incarnation, Christ was know only as the Logos according to John's Gospel (John 1:1). In the Old Testament He is known as YHWH. His being born into flesh and made in fashion as a man, He became the Christ. It is a title, not a name.

    That "Christ showed up in the Old Testament" is not scripturally true. That Yahweh, the Creator, appeared is without doubt. But Christ He was not. It was not until His incarnation as the Messiah that the title could be conferred on Him.This is correct understanding and worth apprehending. But nowhere in the Scriptures is He called the "preincarnate Christ". Once more the unwillingness to maintain a pattern of sound words according to Scripture results in confusion and flawed reasoning.

    2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    Much of the confusion that surround human reasoning stems from not maintaining sound words, by introducing phrases and words that God never used in His revelations to us. Many of them can be found in your postings, which could become a source of debate and friction easily. If the words are unsound, then the reasoning must also be unsound. If the clear words of Scripture cannot be used to explain scripture, then we can be sure we are on the wrong road, leading away from God.

  10. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hi fivesense

    You said......
    Well you picked an interesting verse, to try and prove your point;(1Corinthians 2:11)
    (It just happens to be in one of my favorite passages.)

    Lets put this into context......
    1 Corinthians 2:7-16
    V.7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    V.8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    V.9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    V.10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    V.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    V.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    V.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    V.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
    V.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    V.16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    This passage is talking about God’s wisdom, that is in His mind:......V.7
    A wisdom that the unsaved do not have......V.8, 9
    But when we are saved, God reveals this wisdom to us......V.10
    But, how can we know God’s wisdom and mind, without His Spirit?.....V.11
    The answer: When we were saved, we received God’s Spirit......V.12
    Because we need God’s Spirit, in order to understand the Bible.......V.13
    Those of you, who are unsaved, will never understand the Bible......V.14
    But we who are saved, have God’s Spirit & are instructed by Him.....V.15, 16
    You won’t be able to understand the Deity of Christ or the trinity or any other Biblical Doctrine, until you are born again.

    Now you do have hope in Christ, if you can just get past your human pride:
    But until then, you will be better off, listening rather than talking.....

    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God”
    Right now, the Bible is over your head.
  11. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    I now am aware of where your heart is, and thank you for being open and honest with me. Please forgive my intrusion into your sphere of living. I will not make that mistake again.

  12. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello everyone

    Another good question(actually 3 questions), some others might ask........
    Yes it’s true, that there is only one God, but God like us, is a trichotomy, as explained before.
    When God said.......
    Genesis 1:26a,
    “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..........”

    This is what he was talking about: He made us a trichotomy, just like Him.
    (The angels were not created like us.)
    They have a totally different physiology from us.
    Man was made, in God’s likeness.
    Now with us, our body, soul & Spirit, are as follows:
    Our body, is what others see: Our Soul is who we are: And our Spirit, is the “life” that is in us.........
    Genesis 2:7
    “And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
    But what about God’s trichotomy:
    Well God’s body(that people can see), is the person of Jesus:
    And God’s Spirit, is the person of the Holy Spirit;
    But what about God’s Soul: Well this is the Father.(This is who God is!)

    And just as with us(our body soul and Spirit), which do you think is most important to us?
    The Soul of course, because our soul is “who we are”.
    (And the same is true with God!)
    God the Father, was able to send God the Son(His body), on a mission to Earth, in the same way that we(our soul), are able to direct our body, to do our will.

    Therefore, God is “one God”, in three persons........
    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7)

    Now you can understand, why unbelievers would want to somehow remove this verse from the Bible.
  13. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello bigape,

    Do you understand what the Holy Trinity is? In here, you are actually saying that God's Soul (Father) is more important than God's body and Spirit? We also believe in the Holy Trinity, but what you say here is certainly different from what we teach. We NEVER taught that the Father is more important than the Son or Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). The Word of God came down in the flesh and dwelt among men (John 1:14). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same and yet, different. That is the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Jesus was fully man and fully God. Jesus had both a body and spirit like we do (Matthew 27:50). If the body is not as important as the soul or spirit, then why did Jesus rose from the dead in both body and spirit? Christ's body also resurrected from the dead. This shows that the body is just as important as the spirit or the soul.

    The prophet Isaiah understood that God the Father was going to come down as the Son for he made such a prophecy.

    Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    The child's name is Wonder-Counselor because He is the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:1). The Son is named Mighty God and Eternal Father because the Son is also the Father. They are one and the same (John 10:30). One is not more important than the other because all are one. All three have different roles, but their different roles does not make them any less or greater than the other.

    In Christ,
  14. Martin W.

    Martin W. Active Member

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    I do not disagree that it is extremely important to believe in the divinity of Jesus. Within Christianity we have some muddy waters between different definitions by different (Christian) groups.

    A million pages of arguments have not resolved this issue for everybody.

    I love things in black and white. Sometimes it may be right in front of us:

    All Christians accept that God has a Son.

    Islam has never accepted that God has a Son.

    No muddy waters between those two position. Sometimes I wonder if this was the intended important teaching .
  15. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello Selene

    You asked.........
    I know that it sounds odd, to say that the Father is above(more important), than the Son, but this is Biblical.......
    1 Corinthians 15:24-28
    V.24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    V.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    V.26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
    V.27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    V.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    There is a kind of “pecking order” with the Godhead, with God the Son & God the Holy Spirit, being subordinate to God the Father.
    You also asked.........
    I may have miss-spoken when I inferred that God’s body was “less important”.

    The Bodily resurrection of Christ was important, because he was the Firstborn of the resurrection.
    Colossians 1:18
    “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.”

    Jesus rose from the grave, with a glorified body, just like every Christian will receive, at the rapture of the Church.
  16. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello Martin W.

    Nice to hear from you.

    You said........
    Well you can stop wondering, because the Bible makes it clear that this is a vitally important Doctrine.

    As seen in my OP........
    1 John 2:22
    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

    It is impossible to be saved, while rejecting the Deity of Christ.

    It’s like denying that God even exists.
  17. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Bigape, it is not biblical. You misinterpret Sacred Scripture. Re-read what verse 27 says. It clearly says, "But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is EXCEPTED. The Greek word used for "excepted" is "Ektos." Ektos means "to be outside of." Jesus was not included to be under the Father because He is God, the Father as St. Paul recognized in Romans 9:5.

    Look closely at what the Scripture is saying. Verse 24-26 is saying that Jesus put all things under God the Father. Then look closely at Verse 28. Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under Him. Look at who Jesus is going to be subject unto? It is saying that Jesus will put Himself under the ONE who put all things under God the Father? And who was the one who put all things under the subject of the Father according to verses 24-26? It was Jesus. Do you not see? It is saying that Jesus is putting Himself under Himself?

    God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. That is what the prophet Isaiah is saying (Isaiah 9:6).
  18. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hi Selene

    I am glad to take a closer look at Scripture with you.
    As I said........
    And it is Biblical, in light of this passage, because this passage is talking about God the Son’s mediatorial kingdom.

    Before, Christ came to Earth into the body of Jesus, in Mary’s womb, He(Christ the Son), was in every way equal with God the Father.

    But during this period of time(33 ½ years), Jesus was subordinate to His Father.
    Now for what you said about verse 27.........
    We have no disagreement for the meaning of the word “excepted”, but only for the word “he”.

    Lets take a closer look......
    V.27 “For he(GOD THE FATHER), hath put all things under his(GOD THE SON'S) feet.
    But when he(GOD THE FATHER) saith all things are put under [him(GOD THE SON), it is] manifest that he(GOD THE FATHER) is excepted, which did put all things under him.”

    When God the Father sent God the Son to Earth, He(GOD THE FATHER), put everything under Jesus’s control, except Himself(GOD THE FATHER).

    Actually V.27, is an explanation of an Old Testament Verse.......
    Psalms 8:6
    “Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet:”

    Here we have a perfect example, of how the New Testament, gives us more light, on the Old Testament.
    Next you said........
    Lets do that........
    V.24a Then [cometh] the end,

    This “end”, is the end of the job that the Lord Jesus had come to Earth to do.
    (The job of building a Church.)

    And in the end(when that job is finished), Jesus and His Church will be reintegrated to God the Father.
    V.24b “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;”

    This kingdom being talked about, is the mediatorial kingdom(the time that Jesus is our mediator);
    The time will come, when this kingdom will end, and Christ will no longer be our mediator, because we will be glorified and in heaven and able to go to the father ourselves.
    V.24c “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

    This is talking about when Jesus will rule the earth for 1000 years.
    V.25 “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”

    For 1000 years, Jesus will rule, and at the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be released once again and Christ will put an end to him.....
    Revelation 20:1-10
    V.1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    V.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    V.3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    V.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    V.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
    V.6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    V.7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    V.8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
    V.9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    V.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    I have got to go, but it has been great discussing Scripture with you.
  19. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    My brother, for someone who believes in the Holy Trinity as we do, you are trying to explain something that our minds is not equipped to understand. [​IMG] Look back at the last few verses before Verse 27.

    1 Corinthians 15:23-27 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    As you can see, when you read the previous verses, it is Christ who delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father. It was Christ who delivered everything to God in 1 Corithinans 15. And because we believe that Jesus is God, it can also be said that "He (meaning God the Father) put all things under his (own) feet. According to the footnotes in my Bible, it says that ONLY the human nature of Jesus will be subject to God. Only the human nature of Christ is subject to God because the human nature of Jesus came from Mary. However, this does not mean that Christ Himself is subject under God because the Son and the Father are one and the same. Jesus is God, and to say that Jesus will be subject under the Father will only make Jesus "not" God. This is why we Catholics call the Holy Trinity a mystery. It isn't something anyone is meant to understand. The mysteries of God is something the human mind cannot understand because our minds are limited. Someone can even question that since Jesus had a human nature, then He is not equal to God; however, Father and Son are equal. The mystery of the Holy Trinity is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same, but all three are ALSO different. Their differences, however, does not make one less or greater than the other because Jesus made Himself equal to God in every way (See Philippians 2:5-6 and John 5:18). That is the mystery.