1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    141
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
    ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
    Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
    There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
    Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

    Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
    are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
    justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
    incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

    The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
    those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
    (i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
    to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
    This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

    “… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
    saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
    … they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)


    NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

    There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …

    Believers prove they have true saving faith:
    1 -- by their obedience
    2 -- by practicing righteousness
    3 -- by living holy lives
    4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
    5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
    6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
    7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

    Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
    hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

    So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
    and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!
    Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

    Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
    Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
    However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
    Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
    And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

    Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
    … they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

    Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

    And there are many more warning verses.
    .
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    2 Corinthians 6:2 would tell us that now is the time of salvation; whatever time you may be reading the verse: whether before you committed your life unto the Lord unto justification or whether after you received that one-time salvation.

    We are told to abide in Christ.
     
  3. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,429
    Likes Received:
    2,898
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    That doesnt say that at all.

    Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    He done it once and forever.
     
    Taken, Helen and theophilus like this.
  4. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    141
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Depends on who the "our" are.
    Are they the "faithful" saints of Eph 1:1 and Col 1:2?
    Are they the unfaithful saints?

    Does "our sins" refer to our past sins, i.e. prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

    See, the way this thing works is ...
    each verse must fit in with all of the other verses.
    (This begins with understanding what the NT "believe" really means.)

    In this case, we must consider those NT verses
    which talk about confessing of sin and repentance
    after receiving the Holy Spirit.

    And also consider ... WHY all of the dozens of warnings to the churches,
    if it doesn't matter since all sins have already been forgiven!
    (Oh yes ... re: fellowship? ... re: rewards?)
    Problem is ... SOME of these dire warnings are specifically
    about losing eternal life, gaining eternal death, etc.
    Clear as day ... in black and white.
    Not in red ... I'm just talking about warnings to the churches!
    .
     
  5. theophilus

    theophilus Member

    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    17
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Bible says that even before he created the world God foreknew who would be saved. We someone repents and turns to Christ God knows not only what sins he has committed but he knows every sin he will commit in the future. All are atoned for by the blood of Christ. The warnings about falling away are addressed to those who have professed salvation but don't really have saving faith. I know this is a real possibility because I was once one of these people. I believed that salvation came through water baptism and so I became a member of a church without being really saved. I am thankful that God allowed me to hear the message of salvation and so to become a real believer.
     
    Nancy likes this.
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,800
    Likes Received:
    610
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That is one of the huge lies the hyper-grace doctors have come up with. Those who fall away do so because of deception, not because of some stupid idea that they never had faith in the first place.

    It is deception by men's doctrines that will cause many brethren to fall away in these last days, especially when the pseudo-Messiah shows up working great signs and wonders in playing God here on earth. Many brethren are going to fall away to worship that coming pseudo-Christ who comes first, thinking he is our Lord Jesus. That event we were specifically warned about by our Lord Jesus...

    Matt 24:21-26
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ, or there'; believe it not.


    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, he is in the desert'; go not forth: 'behold, he is in the secret chambers'; believe it not.

    KJV
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That’s not accurate.

    First of all – too many people – especially Calvinists – are confused about God’s “foreknowledge”. His foreknowledge doesn’t mean that He ordained the future – but that He knows it. God is outside of time and sees ALL of history simultaneously. He already knows what choices we made.

    HOWEVER – this doesn’t mean that all of our future sins are forgiven because we haven’t repented of them yet. Your sins are ONLY forgiven when you repent of them. God is not a fool like so many people believe – and His forgiveness is conditional on our penitence.

    There are MANY warnings in Scripture aimed at born-again Christians which tell us that we can LOSE our secure position with God if we fall back into a life of sin and unrepentance.
    And before you go on thinking that these warnings are NOT to God’s born again children – you need to read them in context and understand the language that they were written in . . .

    Romans 11:22
    “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
    Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

    Hebrews 10:26-27
    “If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

    This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    2 Peter 2:20-22
    For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
    For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

    Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    Matt. 5:13
    You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

    This one is self-explanatory . . .

    1 Cor. 9:27
    "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

    Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

    2 Peter 3:17
    Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

    Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

    1 John 2:24
    See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.

    This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

    Rev. 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

    Rev. 22:19
    And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

    How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
     
  8. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    339
    Romans 6, Christians are those who are dead to sin and the way to be dead to sin is by living righteously. Therefore grace will not save anyone who will not obey God (does not fear God) for they are serving "sin unto death" rather than serving "obedience unto righteousness", verse 16. I know of no case where one who continued to disobeyed God in serving sin unto death received grace.
     
    Nancy and Reggie Belafonte like this.
  9. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    141
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    When did Jesus tell them before this? ... Chapter and verse, please.
    Thanks for your excellent post ... You seem to know what's goin' on.
    .
     
  10. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    141
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Hey, another guy who knows what's goin' on ... I'm gettin' overwhelmed.
    .
     
  11. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    141
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    And Ernie T. has this right on also.
    .
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


    Jhn 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Jhn 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    Jhn 10:29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    Jhn 10:30, I and my Father are one.

    Now I will grant that the people who are spoken of in these verses, as having eternal security, are Jesus' sheep; whom He knows: and that it is also written:

    Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    So then, Jesus' sheep, whom He knows, do not work iniquity; and therefore those who do work iniquity cannot avail themselves of the promises of eternal security.

    2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Those who can avail themselves of these promises on eternal security are those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); John 5:24, 6:47, and 10:27-30 do not apply to those who have a mere nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (dead faith).

    For in contrast to John 6:47, Luke 8:13 shows forth an example of someone who believes for a while and then falls away. Such a person does not have everlasting life as john 6:47 promises; for their spiritual life surely comes to an end the moment they fall away. Therefore it is not everlasting.

    Thus, Luke 8:13 is speaking of a faith that is less than that which is spoken of in Romans 10:10; it does not produce righteousness because it is merely shallow, lukewarm, or nominal in nature.

    Yes, I am making a case for the fact that experiential faith will provide eternal security for the one who believes with such a faith.

    Consider:

    1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    REALLY??
    So NO true Christian commits sin?? That’s anti-Biblical nonsense – for which I already gave about TEN passages of Scriptural proof (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

    Paul admitted to sin in his life (Rom. 7:13-25, 1 Tim. 1:15).
    John admitted to sin in his life (1 John 1:8).
    Paul pointed out Peter’s sin (Gal. 2:11-14).

    NONE of the verses you posted make the claim that we cannot sin. They are words of encouragement that we CAN live sin-free – IF we fully trust in the Lord at ALL times. Unfortunately, left to our own devices, we fail from time to time.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, it is true that most believers do not rely on the Holy Spirit consistently and therefore do fail from time to time.

    But I would say that the doctrine of the inevitability of sin is a false doctrine and heresy.

    We do not have to sin...Romans 8:12-13.

    I believe also that 1 John 3:9...which does make the claim that we cannot sin...is very likely hyperbole and that by it John is also saying that as believers we do not have to sin.

    If therefore, we also do not want to sin...how is it that any of us will sin?

    Don't have to + don't want to = cannot.

    Even if 1 John 3:9 is hyperbole, its message is clear...that if anyone is born again, they will walk in newness of life. For they have made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, hell, and satan....towards righteousness, life, heaven, and God.

    Therefore as those who are born again we are walking in a new direction.

    Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

    But it seems that you have been sidetracked from your original point...that there is no such thing as eternal security for that you do not believe that there is any such thing as an epignosis that might secure the believer in Christ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,775
    Likes Received:
    5,659
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    You just can't get off this bandwagon.

    So for a change why don't you present the Gospel as you understand it (assuming that we are all hearing it for the first time and don't have a clue)? And please provide chapter and verse, with the thought and intention that you want to see all your readers saved by grace.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Because it is written,

    Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And I never made the claim that we HAD to sin.
    We stumble because although we are being MADE holy and perfect - none of us is.

    Your second point about sin in RED is also false: "Don't have to + don't want to = cannot."
    This is unBiblical nonsense. Paul's entire message in Romans 7 is about his sinning despite his not wanting to.

    As I told you before - the verses you presented are words of encouragement so that we don't sin - NOT a guarantee that we won't sin.
    The man made doctrine of Eternal Security is an arrogant notion invented by arrogant men like John Calvin.

    That's not MY opinion - that's what Scripture says (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19) . . .
     
    Mike Waters likes this.
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In Romans 7:14-25 , Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION in order to define carnality. See 1 Corinthians 9:22. He is setting himself forth as weak in order that he might gain the weak.

    In scripture, not everyone is defined as carnal believers. There are also the spiritual Christians (1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Galatians 6:1).

    I find it implausible that a carnal believer could be an author of holy scripture (as Paul was when he wrote Romans 7:14-25).

    Paul was not carnal; he was spiritual: when he wrote Romans 7:14-25. Again, he set forth himself as weak in order that he might gain the weak.

    He identified himself as carnal in order to define carnality.

    It is clear from holy scripture that only those who are spiritual can originate holy scripture.

    2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes Received:
    2,044
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You should really consider the following scriptures:

    1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

    Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    .
    .
    .
    1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    1Jo 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    .
    .
    .
    Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
     
  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He didn't lie or exaggerate.
    It means very little to me how YOU perceive his writing. What he wrote speaks for itself.

    John ALSO admitted that he had sin in his life (1 John 1:8) and said that if we say we have NO sin - we deceive ourselves and the truth is NOT in us. Your adherence to the man-made doctrine of Eternal Security is unBiblical at every turn - and you won't find support for it in Scripture without cherry-picking verses.
     
    Mike Waters likes this.
Loading...