The Myth of Sinless Perfection.

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Johann

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The Sin Problem: We need to note immediately that even a genuine process of change in our hearts will never produce "sinless perfection". While our Lord faced all of life's temptations without error (Heb.4:15), the rest of us necessarily fall short of that mark (Rom.3:23). This is because our very physical makeup is corrupt, or "indwelt" by sin (Rom.7:20; Gen.6:5, 8:21). We must therefore not make the mistake of "redefining" sin for our own benefit. Sin is not just what we personally find offensive, but rather everything which God has forbidden. We can neither add to God's list of prohibitions, nor subtract from it with impunity. To God, all sin is an offense against His Person, for all sin is in essence disobedience to His will. Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit, an act which does not seem particularly immoral in and of itself, but which was a clear and willful rejection of God's authority (Gen.2:16-17). Actions prohibited by God, even if they may not seem terribly wrong to us, are just as sinful as those which shock and offend us personally.

The Myth of Sinless Perfection: Even though we have been given the charge "be holy as I am holy" (and this is a standard to which we must cleave: 1Pet.1:15-16), and even though we are expected to improve as we grow up spiritually (and this is a goal to which we must aspire: Heb.5:11-14), absolute sinlessness is nonetheless unattainable in this corrupt body and in this corrupt world. "Sinless perfection" is a false doctrine, and a dangerous one at that, because of the enormous psychological pressure it generates. The reality and inevitability of sin most often lead adherents of such views to deny that certain categories of sin are really sin at all, or to deny that they commit certain sins (even though they may). But the reach of sin is so broad and insidious that it embraces the very motivations and expressions of the human heart (Jer.17:9; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.4:29-31; Phil.2:3-8). No matter what standard of perfection we choose to try and prove our own righteousness, we are bound to fail (cf. Rom.9:31; 10:3). The Ten Commandments, the most specific standard of human conduct ordained by God, concludes by pronouncing the acquisitive and lustful desires of our hearts just as utterly sinful as idolatry or murder ("thou shalt not covet": Ex.20:17; cf. Rom.7:7-12). And in fact, Paul tells us that God's very purpose in giving the Law was to prove to all mankind that beyond any doubt we are all sinful and therefore in need of God's solution to the sin problem, Jesus Christ (Rom.3:9-20; Gal.3:19-25). Many of the "religious" people of Paul's day tried to use the Mosaic Law as a standard to prove their righteousness, but in doing so only managed to condemn themselves (Rom.3:20). The only true righteousness is that given us by God when we believe in His Son (Rom.4:5). As followers of Jesus in a hostile world which is in the devil's grip, we cannot afford to be under any illusions about our personal foibles, errors, and sins. We must recognize them for what they are and make use immediately of the grace God has given us to deal with them.

Cleansing from Sin: As believers, we have already been "washed" clean of our sins, that is, forgiven and pronounced holy by Christ's work when we accept that work by faith (Eph.2:5-9). But although we are clean and pure "in Christ" (1Cor.6:11), it is still possible for our feet to pick up a bit of dirt as we walk about in the devil's world. God has given us the status of "holy people", but we are still imperfect and still capable of sin. We must therefore be alert to the fact that as long as we sojourn on this earth we shall always be vulnerable to personal sin, and we must be ready to confess it whenever we become entangled in the "sin which so easily besets us" (Heb.12:1). This is the point Jesus made when He washed the disciples' feet before the last supper (Jn.13:1-17). Peter was unwilling to allow Jesus to wash his feet along with the other disciples. But when Jesus told him that without the washing of his feet, Peter could have "no share" in Him, Peter demanded that the Lord wash his body also. Jesus replied, "One who has had a bath needs only to have his feet washed, otherwise he is completely clean" (Jn.13:10). Our Lord was telling us that we are in need of only one release from the bondage of sin which has held all mankind under condemnation since Adam, and that this release or "redemption" was provided by His death in our place and appropriated by us through our faith in Him (Col.2:13-14). This is the "bath" or cleansing from sin which has already been accomplished and need never be repeated. We do, however, continue to commit acts of personal sin as believers, and when we do, we are in need of "foot washing", that is, of the forgiveness and restoration which comes to us when we confess our sins to God. We need to be washed from sin only once. We need to cleansed of our sins as often as we commit them.

John's Primer on Sin: For all the reasons mentioned above, sin is a very personal, very disturbing issue. Writing to a congregation which, though ethnically and geographically diverse, had had the benefit of apostolic teaching for many years, the apostle John nevertheless felt the need to review at length the sin issue in the epistle we know as 1st John. In chapter one, verses five through ten, he covers the doctrine of sin in a pithy summary:

1st John 1:5: And this is the message which we have heard from Him and report to you: that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

This verse states the principle emphatically that God has nothing to do with sin. He is not the originator of it and bears no responsibility for it whatsoever. Nor does He condone it in the least. Sin is foreign, antithetical to God, so if we would belong to God, sin can have no place with us either.

1st John 1:6: If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and yet we walk in the darkness, we are lying, and not accomplishing the truth.

Since God and sin are unalterably opposed to each other, we must choose whether to follow God or sin. We cannot simultaneously follow the dark path of sin and at the same time have a relationship (fellowship) with God. If we claim that we are enjoying a relationship with God while living under the dark power of sin, we are only deceiving ourselves and making God out to be a liar, for He tells us that He cannot accept what is sinful. Without the power and wonder of God's grace, these two verses would be terrifying for anyone viewing themselves and their lives with an honest heart. The words of the disciples spring to mind: "Who then can be saved?" (Matt.19:25).

1st John 1:7: But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we do have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The use of the Greek word pas ("all") without a definite article suggests that John is here referring to all acts of personal sin. For those who choose against God in this life, there is no escape from sin and therefore no fellowship with the holy people of God. But for those who choose to walk in the light and follow Christ, God has provided a means of cleansing from every aspect of sin: the work of His Son Jesus Christ on the cross (referred to here and often in scripture as "His blood", cf. Matt.26:28). Because of what Jesus Christ did for us in dying in our place, the Father is justified in accepting His work on our behalf, forgiving us all our sins, and considering us clean despite the sinful nature we retain in these earthly bodies, and despite the personal sins we continue to commit. In the analogy, covering the sin which besmirches us God the Father sees instead "the blood of Christ" with which we "have been sprinkled" (cf. Heb.10:22). He is satisfied that the death penalty for sin has been paid on our behalf. He regards us as guiltless on account of our relationship with His Son rather than judging us according to our necessarily sin-tainted merits. Note carefully in verse seven, however, that believers who are approaching the Christian life in the correct way ("walking in the light") still need cleansing from sin as part of their Christian walk.

1st John 1:8: If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Verse eight is an important caveat to believers who would rather not think of themselves as sinners. If we are unaware of committing any transgressions lately, it is most likely because we lack a clear understanding of the wide ranging and insidious nature of sin. The scripture here is quite clear. As believers, we still sin. It is true that we are commanded not to sin. It is true that suppression of sin is a necessity for spiritual growth and even spiritual safety. But it is also true that as long as we inhabit these imperfect bodies and reside in the devil's world, we must continue our struggle against personal sin, even resisting "to the point of blood" (Heb.12:4; cf. 1Pet.4:1). Verse eight is written neither to discourage us to resist sin, nor to encourage us to commit it, but rather to alert us to the cold, hard reality of the situation in which we find ourselves, and to awaken us to the necessity of dealing with personal sin in the correct, biblical way, namely, through confession.












Confession of Sin, Fellowship, and the Filling of the Holy Spirit.
 

Bob Estey

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The Sin Problem: We need to note immediately that even a genuine process of change in our hearts will never produce "sinless perfection". While our Lord faced all of life's temptations without error (Heb.4:15), the rest of us necessarily fall short of that mark (Rom.3:23). This is because our very physical makeup is corrupt, or "indwelt" by sin (Rom.7:20; Gen.6:5, 8:21). We must therefore not make the mistake of "redefining" sin for our own benefit. Sin is not just what we personally find offensive, but rather everything which God has forbidden. We can neither add to God's list of prohibitions, nor subtract from it with impunity. To God, all sin is an offense against His Person, for all sin is in essence disobedience to His will. Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit, an act which does not seem particularly immoral in and of itself, but which was a clear and willful rejection of God's authority (Gen.2:16-17). Actions prohibited by God, even if they may not seem terribly wrong to us, are just as sinful as those which shock and offend us personally.

The Myth of Sinless Perfection: Even though we have been given the charge "be holy as I am holy" (and this is a standard to which we must cleave: 1Pet.1:15-16), and even though we are expected to improve as we grow up spiritually (and this is a goal to which we must aspire: Heb.5:11-14), absolute sinlessness is nonetheless unattainable in this corrupt body and in this corrupt world. "Sinless perfection" is a false doctrine, and a dangerous one at that, because of the enormous psychological pressure it generates. The reality and inevitability of sin most often lead adherents of such views to deny that certain categories of sin are really sin at all, or to deny that they commit certain sins (even though they may). But the reach of sin is so broad and insidious that it embraces the very motivations and expressions of the human heart (Jer.17:9; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.4:29-31; Phil.2:3-8). No matter what standard of perfection we choose to try and prove our own righteousness, we are bound to fail (cf. Rom.9:31; 10:3). The Ten Commandments, the most specific standard of human conduct ordained by God, concludes by pronouncing the acquisitive and lustful desires of our hearts just as utterly sinful as idolatry or murder ("thou shalt not covet": Ex.20:17; cf. Rom.7:7-12). And in fact, Paul tells us that God's very purpose in giving the Law was to prove to all mankind that beyond any doubt we are all sinful and therefore in need of God's solution to the sin problem, Jesus Christ (Rom.3:9-20; Gal.3:19-25). Many of the "religious" people of Paul's day tried to use the Mosaic Law as a standard to prove their righteousness, but in doing so only managed to condemn themselves (Rom.3:20). The only true righteousness is that given us by God when we believe in His Son (Rom.4:5). As followers of Jesus in a hostile world which is in the devil's grip, we cannot afford to be under any illusions about our personal foibles, errors, and sins. We must recognize them for what they are and make use immediately of the grace God has given us to deal with them.

Cleansing from Sin: As believers, we have already been "washed" clean of our sins, that is, forgiven and pronounced holy by Christ's work when we accept that work by faith (Eph.2:5-9). But although we are clean and pure "in Christ" (1Cor.6:11), it is still possible for our feet to pick up a bit of dirt as we walk about in the devil's world. God has given us the status of "holy people", but we are still imperfect and still capable of sin. We must therefore be alert to the fact that as long as we sojourn on this earth we shall always be vulnerable to personal sin, and we must be ready to confess it whenever we become entangled in the "sin which so easily besets us" (Heb.12:1). This is the point Jesus made when He washed the disciples' feet before the last supper (Jn.13:1-17). Peter was unwilling to allow Jesus to wash his feet along with the other disciples. But when Jesus told him that without the washing of his feet, Peter could have "no share" in Him, Peter demanded that the Lord wash his body also. Jesus replied, "One who has had a bath needs only to have his feet washed, otherwise he is completely clean" (Jn.13:10). Our Lord was telling us that we are in need of only one release from the bondage of sin which has held all mankind under condemnation since Adam, and that this release or "redemption" was provided by His death in our place and appropriated by us through our faith in Him (Col.2:13-14). This is the "bath" or cleansing from sin which has already been accomplished and need never be repeated. We do, however, continue to commit acts of personal sin as believers, and when we do, we are in need of "foot washing", that is, of the forgiveness and restoration which comes to us when we confess our sins to God. We need to be washed from sin only once. We need to cleansed of our sins as often as we commit them.

John's Primer on Sin: For all the reasons mentioned above, sin is a very personal, very disturbing issue. Writing to a congregation which, though ethnically and geographically diverse, had had the benefit of apostolic teaching for many years, the apostle John nevertheless felt the need to review at length the sin issue in the epistle we know as 1st John. In chapter one, verses five through ten, he covers the doctrine of sin in a pithy summary:

1st John 1:5: And this is the message which we have heard from Him and report to you: that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

This verse states the principle emphatically that God has nothing to do with sin. He is not the originator of it and bears no responsibility for it whatsoever. Nor does He condone it in the least. Sin is foreign, antithetical to God, so if we would belong to God, sin can have no place with us either.

1st John 1:6: If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and yet we walk in the darkness, we are lying, and not accomplishing the truth.

Since God and sin are unalterably opposed to each other, we must choose whether to follow God or sin. We cannot simultaneously follow the dark path of sin and at the same time have a relationship (fellowship) with God. If we claim that we are enjoying a relationship with God while living under the dark power of sin, we are only deceiving ourselves and making God out to be a liar, for He tells us that He cannot accept what is sinful. Without the power and wonder of God's grace, these two verses would be terrifying for anyone viewing themselves and their lives with an honest heart. The words of the disciples spring to mind: "Who then can be saved?" (Matt.19:25).

1st John 1:7: But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we do have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The use of the Greek word pas ("all") without a definite article suggests that John is here referring to all acts of personal sin. For those who choose against God in this life, there is no escape from sin and therefore no fellowship with the holy people of God. But for those who choose to walk in the light and follow Christ, God has provided a means of cleansing from every aspect of sin: the work of His Son Jesus Christ on the cross (referred to here and often in scripture as "His blood", cf. Matt.26:28). Because of what Jesus Christ did for us in dying in our place, the Father is justified in accepting His work on our behalf, forgiving us all our sins, and considering us clean despite the sinful nature we retain in these earthly bodies, and despite the personal sins we continue to commit. In the analogy, covering the sin which besmirches us God the Father sees instead "the blood of Christ" with which we "have been sprinkled" (cf. Heb.10:22). He is satisfied that the death penalty for sin has been paid on our behalf. He regards us as guiltless on account of our relationship with His Son rather than judging us according to our necessarily sin-tainted merits. Note carefully in verse seven, however, that believers who are approaching the Christian life in the correct way ("walking in the light") still need cleansing from sin as part of their Christian walk.

1st John 1:8: If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Verse eight is an important caveat to believers who would rather not think of themselves as sinners. If we are unaware of committing any transgressions lately, it is most likely because we lack a clear understanding of the wide ranging and insidious nature of sin. The scripture here is quite clear. As believers, we still sin. It is true that we are commanded not to sin. It is true that suppression of sin is a necessity for spiritual growth and even spiritual safety. But it is also true that as long as we inhabit these imperfect bodies and reside in the devil's world, we must continue our struggle against personal sin, even resisting "to the point of blood" (Heb.12:4; cf. 1Pet.4:1). Verse eight is written neither to discourage us to resist sin, nor to encourage us to commit it, but rather to alert us to the cold, hard reality of the situation in which we find ourselves, and to awaken us to the necessity of dealing with personal sin in the correct, biblical way, namely, through confession.












Confession of Sin, Fellowship, and the Filling of the Holy Spirit.
It seems to me we ought to be able to repent of our sin. It seems to me we need God's help in doing that.
 

Nancy

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The Sin Problem: We need to note immediately that even a genuine process of change in our hearts will never produce "sinless perfection". While our Lord faced all of life's temptations without error (Heb.4:15), the rest of us necessarily fall short of that mark (Rom.3:23). This is because our very physical makeup is corrupt, or "indwelt" by sin (Rom.7:20; Gen.6:5, 8:21). We must therefore not make the mistake of "redefining" sin for our own benefit. Sin is not just what we personally find offensive, but rather everything which God has forbidden. We can neither add to God's list of prohibitions, nor subtract from it with impunity. To God, all sin is an offense against His Person, for all sin is in essence disobedience to His will. Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit, an act which does not seem particularly immoral in and of itself, but which was a clear and willful rejection of God's authority (Gen.2:16-17). Actions prohibited by God, even if they may not seem terribly wrong to us, are just as sinful as those which shock and offend us personally.

The Myth of Sinless Perfection: Even though we have been given the charge "be holy as I am holy" (and this is a standard to which we must cleave: 1Pet.1:15-16), and even though we are expected to improve as we grow up spiritually (and this is a goal to which we must aspire: Heb.5:11-14), absolute sinlessness is nonetheless unattainable in this corrupt body and in this corrupt world. "Sinless perfection" is a false doctrine, and a dangerous one at that, because of the enormous psychological pressure it generates. The reality and inevitability of sin most often lead adherents of such views to deny that certain categories of sin are really sin at all, or to deny that they commit certain sins (even though they may). But the reach of sin is so broad and insidious that it embraces the very motivations and expressions of the human heart (Jer.17:9; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.4:29-31; Phil.2:3-8). No matter what standard of perfection we choose to try and prove our own righteousness, we are bound to fail (cf. Rom.9:31; 10:3). The Ten Commandments, the most specific standard of human conduct ordained by God, concludes by pronouncing the acquisitive and lustful desires of our hearts just as utterly sinful as idolatry or murder ("thou shalt not covet": Ex.20:17; cf. Rom.7:7-12). And in fact, Paul tells us that God's very purpose in giving the Law was to prove to all mankind that beyond any doubt we are all sinful and therefore in need of God's solution to the sin problem, Jesus Christ (Rom.3:9-20; Gal.3:19-25). Many of the "religious" people of Paul's day tried to use the Mosaic Law as a standard to prove their righteousness, but in doing so only managed to condemn themselves (Rom.3:20). The only true righteousness is that given us by God when we believe in His Son (Rom.4:5). As followers of Jesus in a hostile world which is in the devil's grip, we cannot afford to be under any illusions about our personal foibles, errors, and sins. We must recognize them for what they are and make use immediately of the grace God has given us to deal with them.

Cleansing from Sin: As believers, we have already been "washed" clean of our sins, that is, forgiven and pronounced holy by Christ's work when we accept that work by faith (Eph.2:5-9). But although we are clean and pure "in Christ" (1Cor.6:11), it is still possible for our feet to pick up a bit of dirt as we walk about in the devil's world. God has given us the status of "holy people", but we are still imperfect and still capable of sin. We must therefore be alert to the fact that as long as we sojourn on this earth we shall always be vulnerable to personal sin, and we must be ready to confess it whenever we become entangled in the "sin which so easily besets us" (Heb.12:1). This is the point Jesus made when He washed the disciples' feet before the last supper (Jn.13:1-17). Peter was unwilling to allow Jesus to wash his feet along with the other disciples. But when Jesus told him that without the washing of his feet, Peter could have "no share" in Him, Peter demanded that the Lord wash his body also. Jesus replied, "One who has had a bath needs only to have his feet washed, otherwise he is completely clean" (Jn.13:10). Our Lord was telling us that we are in need of only one release from the bondage of sin which has held all mankind under condemnation since Adam, and that this release or "redemption" was provided by His death in our place and appropriated by us through our faith in Him (Col.2:13-14). This is the "bath" or cleansing from sin which has already been accomplished and need never be repeated. We do, however, continue to commit acts of personal sin as believers, and when we do, we are in need of "foot washing", that is, of the forgiveness and restoration which comes to us when we confess our sins to God. We need to be washed from sin only once. We need to cleansed of our sins as often as we commit them.

John's Primer on Sin: For all the reasons mentioned above, sin is a very personal, very disturbing issue. Writing to a congregation which, though ethnically and geographically diverse, had had the benefit of apostolic teaching for many years, the apostle John nevertheless felt the need to review at length the sin issue in the epistle we know as 1st John. In chapter one, verses five through ten, he covers the doctrine of sin in a pithy summary:

1st John 1:5: And this is the message which we have heard from Him and report to you: that God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

This verse states the principle emphatically that God has nothing to do with sin. He is not the originator of it and bears no responsibility for it whatsoever. Nor does He condone it in the least. Sin is foreign, antithetical to God, so if we would belong to God, sin can have no place with us either...
This is put so very well put! Sin most certainly is insidious. Many are walking around thinking they are sinless but, isn't there sometimes sin in someone and they are just not aware of it? They don't ask God to show them where they may be falling short in thought, word or deed. He shows me things that throw me as, I've not realized these things about myself until asking Him to reveal! It hurts yet, we need to see truth in ourselves so we can grow.
Again, really good post and very well written!
 

Johann

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This is put so very well put! Sin most certainly is insidious. Many are walking around thinking they are sinless but, isn't there sometimes sin in someone and they are just not aware of it? They don't ask God to show them where they may be falling short in thought, word or deed. He shows me things that throw me as, I've not realized these things about myself until asking Him to reveal! It hurts yet, we need to see truth in ourselves so we can grow.
Again, really good post and very well written!
I have to confess, not my work @Nancy but praise our Lord Christ Jesus for His mercies.....I am just a simpleton, a son of South Africa, Afrikaans my mother language, and commentaries my "Aaron"
I don't have the ability to eloquently express myself such as yourself dear sister in Christ.
God bless you, you are a real encourager.
J.
 

Nancy

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I have to confess, not my work @Nancy but praise our Lord Christ Jesus for His mercies.....I am just a simpleton, a son of South Africa, Afrikaans my mother language, and commentaries my "Aaron" I don't have the ability to eloquently express myself such as yourself dear sister in Christ.
God bless you, you are a real encourager.
J.
Ah, thank you for the compliment though, I don't see myself at all as eloquent, I too am just a simpleton trying to decipher some complicated posts....not that yours was at all complicated, I understood every word. Weather or not you wrote it, it spoke volumes and was IMHO, right on about sin.
 

Jim B

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This is put so very well put! Sin most certainly is insidious. Many are walking around thinking they are sinless but, isn't there sometimes sin in someone and they are just not aware of it? They don't ask God to show them where they may be falling short in thought, word or deed. He shows me things that throw me as, I've not realized these things about myself until asking Him to reveal! It hurts yet, we need to see truth in ourselves so we can grow.
Again, really good post and very well written!
As I have written many times before, how do you (or anyone) know what "many" are thinking? Can you read people's minds? Or are you just making a blanket statement to condemn people whom you undoubtedly have never met?
 

Nancy

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As I have written many times before, how do you (or anyone) know what "many" are thinking? Can you read people's minds? Or are you just making a blanket statement to condemn people whom you undoubtedly have never met?
We are surrounded by so many lost, do you not see that? Have you not noticed how "the love of many has grown cold"? It's because sin abounds.
I condemn nobody!
If someone is living like the devil, we know they are not a Christian. That does not take much "thinking".

Ever met a modern day Pharisee?

Not long ago I met with someone from a previous, and short lived, church. He and his wife were both at the church I had went to right after theirs...they were visiting. I left their church because of bad doctrine. The see me and we say hello and start talking, it got to "sin" somehow and he said in answer to my own struggles was that "Hahaha, oh we all have our "pet sin" that threw me. I take sin very seriously and finding out that day also, that both church's were hand in hand, pastors from both church's taught at both church's. If I had stayed at either of those two church's, I would undoubtedly have fallen back into the sin I had been already been delivered from. I did not receive a call back from my 3 messages left to make an appt. with the pastor. I think I was blackballed, lol! More than fine with me.

Okay, off topic and, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway and, I was not making a blanket statement.
God bless

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
Matt. 7:13
 

Jim B

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We are surrounded by so many lost, do you not see that? Have you not noticed how "the love of many has grown cold"? It's because sin abounds.
I condemn nobody!
If someone is living like the devil, we know they are not a Christian. That does not take much "thinking".

Ever met a modern day Pharisee?

Not long ago I met with someone from a previous, and short lived, church. He and his wife were both at the church I had went to right after theirs...they were visiting. I left their church because of bad doctrine. The see me and we say hello and start talking, it got to "sin" somehow and he said in answer to my own struggles was that "Hahaha, oh we all have our "pet sin" that threw me. I take sin very seriously and finding out that day also, that both church's were hand in hand, pastors from both church's taught at both church's. If I had stayed at either of those two church's, I would undoubtedly have fallen back into the sin I had been already been delivered from. I did not receive a call back from my 3 messages left to make an appt. with the pastor. I think I was blackballed, lol! More than fine with me.

Okay, off topic and, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway and, I was not making a blanket statement.
God bless

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
Matt. 7:13
a) I was not offended. It just baffles me when you or anyone else claim to know "the many" are thinking or doing. People are individuals and it is wrong to make blanket statements, judging people whom you have never met.

b) You wrote, "If someone is living like the devil, we know they are not a Christian". There are many people, Christian or not, who "live like the devil" (whatever that means). People of all faiths (or no faith) can be trapped in sin. How do you know what a person is struggling with? If someone is an alcoholic, can't they also be a Christian?

c) Here is something to read and meditate on: Ephesians 2:1-10, "And although you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the domain of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, among whom all of us[l] also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are his creative work, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we can do them."

Compare that to the verse you quoted from Matthew, where Jesus is teaching people about the consequences of sin. Have compassion on those who are trapped in sin instead of judging them!!!
 

-Phil

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Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit
The Bible says “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

Do you understand what’s meant by the knowledge of good & evil?
 

Jim B

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The Bible says “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

Do you understand what’s meant by the knowledge of good & evil?

Johan was write when he posted "Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit".

Genesis 3:2-3, "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’ ” Clearly Adam and Eve were not interested in eating the branches or leaves, only the fruit.
 
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-Phil

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Johan was write when he posted "Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise for eating of the forbidden fruit".

Genesis 3:2-3, "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’ ” Clearly Adam and Eve were interested in eating the branches or leaves, only the fruit.
Once there is understanding of what “the knowledge of good & evil” is, then there will be understanding of what “expelled from paradise” & “you shall die” mean.
 

Jim B

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Once there is understanding of what “the knowledge of good & evil” is, then there will be understanding of what “expelled from paradise” & “you shall die” mean.
Okay. What, in your opinion, what do “expelled from paradise” & “you shall die” mean (other than their plain and obvious meaning)?
 

Jim B

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Once there is understanding of what “the knowledge of good & evil” is, then there will be understanding of what “expelled from paradise” & “you shall die” mean.
BTW, in my post I of course meant not interested in eating the branches or leaves, only the fruit. :rolleyes:
 

-Phil

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Okay. What, in your opinion, what do “expelled from paradise” & “you shall die” mean (other than their plain and obvious meaning)?
First there’d have to be understanding of what “knowledge of good & evil” is.
 
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dhh712

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If we are unaware of committing any transgressions lately, it is most likely because we lack a clear understanding of the wide ranging and insidious nature of sin. The scripture here is quite clear. As believers, we still sin. It is true that we are commanded not to sin. It is true that suppression of sin is a necessity for spiritual growth and even spiritual safety. But it is also true that as long as we inhabit these imperfect bodies and reside in the devil's world, we must continue our struggle against personal sin, even resisting "to the point of blood" (Heb.12:4; cf. 1Pet.4:1). Verse eight is written neither to discourage us to resist sin, nor to encourage us to commit it, but rather to alert us to the cold, hard reality of the situation in which we find ourselves, and to awaken us to the necessity of dealing with personal sin in the correct, biblical way, namely, through confession.

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To me that seems to be the main flaw with the sinless perfection crowd: they attain a gloss of doing good and acting in a manner pleasing to God. But they lack an understanding of all of what the moral law demands; if this crowd could have their eyes opened in this way by the Holy Spirit, they would realize how miserably they fail to attain to God's perfect demands every single day of their lives. That much is a fact for every single person who is saved by the blood of Jesus. It is His righteousness which allows us to stand before the throne of God. Were we to stand before him with our works, we would be consumed by Him.

Those claiming to have their own righteousness DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS; at the very least, they appear not to for they want to claim what HE ALONE CAN DO.

I whole-heartedly appreciate your endeavors to slay this damaging heresy. I pray that the Spirit will bless your efforts and open the eyes of the blind.

Thank you, dear brother.
 
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Johann

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To me that seems to be the main flaw with the sinless perfection crowd: they attain a gloss of doing good and acting in a manner pleasing to God. But they lack an understanding of all of what the moral law demands; if this crowd could have their eyes opened in this way by the Holy Spirit, they would realize how miserably they fail to attain to God's perfect demands every single day of their lives. That much is a fact for every single person who is saved by the blood of Jesus. It is His righteousness which allows us to stand before the throne of God. Were we to stand before him with our works, we would be consumed by Him.

Those claiming to have their own righteousness DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS; at the very least, they appear not to for they want to claim what HE ALONE CAN DO.

I whole-heartedly appreciate your endeavors to slay this damaging heresy. I pray that the Spirit will bless your efforts and open the eyes of the blind.

Thank you, dear brother.
How many members believe like we do @dhh712?
It would seem the majority believe that they have reached sinless perfection, the total eradication of the sinful nature, a newbie said our spirit is perfect, we don't have a "old man/nature" to DIE TO! Imagine that. We don't have anything to "crucify " and no need for sanctification, the outworking of sanctification!

1 Pet 4:1-2 their go to, and NO ONE seems to be interested in doing some basic Greek and Morphology to help clarify some "gray verses" and an utter refusal to read around texts using secondary resources.

Here is 1 Pet 4:1-2
1Pe 4:1 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1Pe 4:2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.
ESV
1Pe 4:1 SO, SINCE Christ suffered in the flesh for us, for you, arm yourselves with the same thought and purpose [patiently to suffer rather than fail to please God]. For whoever has suffered in the flesh [having the mind of Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God],
1Pe 4:2 So that he can no longer spend the rest of his natural life living by [his] human appetites and desires, but [he lives] for what God wills.
AMPC
Arm ye yourselves also (kai humeis hoplisasthe). Direct middle first aorist imperative of hoplizō, old verb from hoplon (weapon, Joh_18:3), in metaphorical sense, here only in N.T.
With the same mind (tēn autēn ennoian). Accusative of the thing (content), ennoian, old word (from en, nous), putting in mind, thinking, will, in N.T. only here and Heb_4:12. “Here again Christus Patiens is our hupogrammos” (Bigg).
For (hoti). Reason for the exhortation.
Hath ceased from sin (pepautai hamartias). Perfect middle indicative of pauō to make cease and the ablative singular hamartias, but B reads the dative plural hamartiais (cf. Rom_6:1.). Temptation has lost its appeal and power with such a man.
Robertson.

Your take, and what sources are you using other than Scriptures?

When a believer deliberately chooses to suffer persecution as a Christian rather than to continue in a life of sin, he has ceased from sin.

This does not mean that he no longer commits acts of sin, but that the power of sin in his life has been broken. When a man suffers because he refuses to sin, he is no longer controlled by the will of the flesh.

Should you wish, we can go privately.
J.