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Featured The Nativity

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Webers_Home, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:1-4 . . Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative
    of the things that have been accomplished among us-- just as those who
    from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have
    delivered them to us --it seemed good to me also, having followed all things
    closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most
    excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you
    have been taught.

    Luke's report is alleged to have been written somewhere around AD60,
    roughly thirty years or so after the conclusion of the facts. Plus, it's not an
    eye-witness report; rather, it's essentially hearsay. All I can say to that is
    Caveat Lector.

    Also; Luke's report was written neither to or for a church, it was written to
    and for a specific person; which leads me to believe that Luke wasn't
    expecting his report to end up in the Bible. Apparently Constantine's
    committee felt it was "inspired" so there it is.
    _
     
  2. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:26-27 . . And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from
    God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man
    whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was
    Mary.

    That particular sixth month wasn't a date on the Jew's calendar. It was
    relative to the second trimester of Mary's cousin Elizabeth. (Luke 1:24, Luke
    1:36)


    NOTE: Mary and Elizabeth were related by blood to Rachel's sister Leah by
    her two sons Levi and Judah.

    The koiné Greek word for "virgin" is parthenos (par-then'-os) which basically
    means a maiden; particularly a daughter that's not married. In point of fact,
    at this juncture Mary was engaged.

    Joseph's association with David is extremely important in matters related to
    theocratic royalty.
    _
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  3. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

    He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.

    He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.

    But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
     
  4. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Luke 2:49 He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he said to them. 51 Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.

    At what age is a 1st century Jew no longer obligated to be obedient to his parents?
     
  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This means that it was inspired:"having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first", which should ave been translated as "having had perfect understanding of all things from ABOVE (Greek ἄνωθεν, anothen). It is a shame, and misleading, to have translated it as "from the beginning".

    Strong's Concordance
    anóthen: from above
    Original Word: ἄνωθεν
    Part of Speech: Adverb
    Transliteration: anóthen
    Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
    Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
    Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.

    This is ludicrous. On this logic you would disqualify 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and 2 & 3 John.

    So who has been feeding you this line of malarkey?
     
  6. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:28 . .The angel went to her and said: Greetings, you who are
    highly favored!

    "highly favored" is translated from the Greek word charitoo (khar-ee-to'-o)
    which means to indue with special honor. It's a rare word that appears in
    only one other verse in the entire New Testament at Eph 1:6.

    The angel wasn't describing Mary's character as if she was an ultra pious
    Jew. He merely stated that she was the object of a very special blessing;
    same as Christ's believing followers are the objects of a very special blessing
    at Eph 1:6, i.e. the angel informed Mary that she was extremely fortunate;
    though for the moment she had no clue as to why.


    NOTE: The Douay Rheims version of Luke 1:28 says that Mary was "full of
    grace" instead of highly favored and "blessed are you among women". Those
    phrases aren't translated from the Greek; i.e. editors took the liberty to
    insert them because in their opinion that's what the passage ought to say
    even though it doesn't, so we can safely ignore them.

    Arbitrary editing can be troublesome at times because the practice erodes
    our confidence in the Bible as the inspired word of God. Sometimes arbitrary
    editing is helpful; but other times it just muddies the waters.
    _
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  7. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"

    [The RSVCE translates kecharitomene ("favored one" above) as "full of grace"]

    Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

    Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).

    The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

    "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).
    (Robertson, II, 13)

    Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

    Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

    Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

    The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

    Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it (Rom. 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
    (Kittel, 1304-1305)

    Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

    Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

    We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

    Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

    Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

    1. Grace saves us.

    2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.


    Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

    1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

    2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

    A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

    1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

    2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

    3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

    4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

    5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

    6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

    7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

    8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

    The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

    Full of Grace and the Linguistic and Exegetical Considerations by Dave Armstrong ::


    [​IMG]
     
  8. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:29 . . She was greatly troubled at this statement, and kept
    pondering what kind of salutation this might be.

    Artists generally depict the angel as a celestial being with wings. But I don't
    think that's how this one came knocking. He probably looked to Mary no
    different than an ordinary man because the New Testament Greek word for
    angel is aggelos (ang'-el-os) which refers to all manner of messengers, e.g.
    prophets (Matt 11:10), delegates (Luke 7:24), church officers (Rev 1:20
    3:14), and apparitions. (Rev 22:16)

    I rather suspect that Mary was a little nervous that maybe this man talking
    to her wasn't some sort of crackpot.

    Luke 1:30 . . But the angel said to her: Do not be afraid, Mary,

    The New Testament Greek word for "afraid" is phobeo (fob-eh'-o) which
    basically refers to fright and alarm. Mary was scared; and who wouldn't be
    when a total stranger walks into your life out of nowhere, talking crazy, and
    knowing your name to boot?
    _
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  9. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:30 . .You have found favor with God.

    The Greek word translated "favor" is charis (khar'-ece) a common word for
    "grace" which, in my estimation, is best understood as gracious; and can be
    defined as kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable,
    merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, non
    threatening, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and
    tactful.

    The equivalent of charis in the Old Testament is chen (khane); for example:

    "Noah found favor with The Lord." (Gen 6:8)

    I think it fair to say that when someone has found favor with God, it
    probably means that He's taken a liking to them; or at least an interest; for
    example:

    "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you." (John 15:9)
    _
     
  10. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:31a . . Behold,

    The Greek word translated "behold" is idou (id-oo') which, in this case,
    means to listen up and pay attention 'cause this is important.

    Luke 1:31b . . you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son.

    The Greek word translated "conceive" means exactly what it says. We're not
    talking about a test tube baby here. The very same word is used at Luke
    1:24 and Luke 1:36 in talking about Elizabeth's baby.

    It's amazing the number of Christians I encounter online who honestly
    believe that baby Jesus was an implant. i.e. that his mom was a surrogate
    mother instead of his biological mother.
    _
     
  11. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Ugh! How could one think that?

    Pax!
     
  12. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:31c . .You are to give him the name Jesus.

    The Greek word for "Jesus" is Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') which is the Hebrew
    equivalent of Yehowshuwa' (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah) and/or Yehowshu'a (yeh-ho
    shoo'-ah) which essentially mean: saved by Jehovah. (Note the grammatical
    tense: it's past rather than present or future.)

    Anyway, that was Joshua's name; the Jewish military commander who led
    Moses' people during the conquest of ancient Palestine.

    I think it's pretty safe to assume that Jesus' name was chosen specifically
    rather than arbitrarily because of it's historical significance.


    NOTE: Joshua wasn't the only military commander in charge of the
    conquest. There was another of higher rank, superior to Joshua.

    Josh 5:13-15 . . As Joshua approached the city of Jericho, he looked up
    and saw a man facing him with sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and
    asked: Are you friend or foe?

    . . . Neither one; he replied. I am commander of Yhvh's forces.

    . . . At this, Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence. I am at your
    command; Joshua said. What do you want your servant to do? The
    commander of Yhvh's forces replied: Take off your sandals, for this is holy
    ground.

    . . . And Joshua did as he was told.
    _
     
  13. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Jesus' mom was instructed to give her miraculous baby the name Jesus.

    Luke 1:31c . .You are to give him the name Jesus.

    Joseph was instructed to do the same.

    Matt 1:20-21 . . An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and
    said: Joseph son of David . . . you are to give him the name Jesus

    Joseph complied.

    Matt 1:25 . . And he gave him the name Jesus.

    So Christ went in the books as Joseph's son because that's how it worked in
    those days when a man stood with a woman to name her child (cf. Luke
    1:59, Luke 2:21).

    From that day on; Joseph was identified by all, including Mary, as Jesus'
    father. (Matt 13:55, Luke 2:27, Luke 2:41, Luke 2:48)

    Now; the thing to note is that adopted children have just as much legal right
    to an inheritance as a father's biological children; especially a right to the
    father's name; and that's how baby Jesus got into Joseph's genealogy at
    Matt 1:1-17. Had the little guy been Joseph's foster child, or his stepchild;
    then it would've been fraud for Matthew to place the boy in Joseph's
    genealogy.
    _
     
  14. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:21 . . He shall save his people from their sins.

    The word "save" is from the koiné Greek word sozo (sode'-zo) which
    basically means to rescue and/or protect.

    Rescuers typically provide their services to desperate people who are
    thoroughly incapable of getting themselves out of overwhelming difficulties.

    "his people" refers to the Jews.

    Heb 2:16-17 . . Assuredly he does not give help to angels, but he gives
    help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, he had to be made like his
    brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high
    priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the
    people.

    Baby Jesus wasn't related to Aaron, so his high priesthood would not be in
    accord with the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per
    Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Jesus' high priesthood would
    be in accord with a Gentile high priest; in point of fact, baby Jesus' high
    priesthood would be in accord with a man whose ethnic identity isn't known,
    nor is anything known about his family or his ancestors.

    Baby Jesus was to become a high priest in accord with a man that the Jews
    have heard of, but never actually seen for themselves. The man's name is
    Melchizedek; he's mentioned way back in the past in association with
    Abraham. (Gen 14:18-20, Ps 110:1-4, Heb 6:20-7:22)

    Now, unless "his people" extends all the way back to Abraham, then the
    rescue referred to in Matt 1:21 would be limited to some of his people but
    not all. But according to Isa 53:6, it's all; which is a tremendous
    improvement over Aaron's high priesthood. His isn't retroactive that far
    back. It only extends to the year of the installation of the covenant that
    Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
    Deuteronomy.

    Deut 5:2-4 . .The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was
    not with our fathers that The Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all
    of us who are alive here today.
    _
     
  15. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    I wasn't reading anything you posted, but the above caught my eye.

    What from the fiery abyss would posses you to say "Jews" are Jesus' people? Jesus said the Jews of their father the devil. The people of Jesus are not Jews. We're Christians.
     
  16. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:18 . . His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but
    before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy
    Spirit.

    Mary must've let the cat out of the bag or how else would Joseph know
    about God's involvement in his best girl's baby. But I really don't think
    Joseph believed Mary's story because his next thought was to dump her.

    Matt 1:18-19 . . Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not
    wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away quietly.

    The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God requires engaged
    women to be executed when they willingly sleep with another man.

    Deut 22:23-24 . . If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to
    be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate
    of that town and stone them to death-- the girl because she was in a town
    and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's
    wife.

    But the law is very particular in capital cases. Nobody can be executed for
    any crime sans the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses.

    Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he
    that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he
    shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him
    to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people.

    The Bible says that Joseph was a righteous man; which means that he was a
    stickler for due process in strict accord with the covenant.

    So then, in the absence of two witnesses, Joseph had to let Mary slide; the
    same as grown-up Jesus had to let a woman taken in the very act of
    adultery slide for lack of witnesses. (John 8:9-11)
    _
     
  17. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:20a . .The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said:
    Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife because what
    is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

    According to Matt 1:18, Joseph had been apprised of God's involvement in
    his best girls' baby; but didn't believe it. The angel's corroboration became
    essential to prevent the couple from parting company.

    Incidentally; the koiné Greek word for "wife" just simply means woman. The
    difference is made by modifying it with a possessive pronoun so that "your
    wife" is actually your woman.

    It's not too difficult to figure out why Joseph was afraid to go thru with the
    engagement. I mean; just think how humiliating it would be for a decent
    man to stand before friends and family to marry a girl coming down the aisle
    knocked up with another man's baby.

    And besides; if Mary was already sleeping around, who's to say she wouldn't
    sleep around again later on after she and Joseph were married? No; immoral
    girls are a bad bet because they can't be trusted to be faithful and true.
    _
     
  18. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:22-23 . . Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord
    through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying: Behold, the virgin shall be
    with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel;
    which translated means: God with us.

    The prophet's name was Isaiah, and the prophecy is located in verse 14 of
    the 7th chapter of his book.

    Now, Joseph and Mary were instructed to name her baby "Jesus". So the
    identity of "they" in the prophecy wasn't his parents. It was actually the
    Jews.

    Luke 7:14-17 . . Jesus came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers
    came to a halt. And he said: Young man, I say to you, arise! And the dead
    man sat up, and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
    And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying: God has
    visited His people
    ! And this report concerning him went out all over Judea,
    and in all the surrounding district.


    NOTE: The name Emmanuel (a.k.a. Immanuel) appears only three times in
    the whole Bible: twice in Isaiah, and once in Matthew.
    _
     
  19. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:24-25 . . When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord
    commanded. He brought Mary home to be his wife, but she remained a
    virgin until her son was born.

    The couple didn't marry right away. According to Luke 2:1-7 they journeyed
    to Bethlehem as an engaged couple rather than a married couple.

    At first glance it appears that Mary and Joseph began shacking up; but I
    hardly think so. The Bible says Joseph was a righteous man. Well; righteous
    men don't shack up. The "home" that Joseph brought Mary to was likely his
    family's home rather than a bachelor pad.

    Preachers sometimes compose whole sermons to explain why Joseph didn't
    sleep with Mary right away, but the fact of the matter is: she and Joseph
    weren't wed till sometime after Jesus was born. Well; righteous men are
    men of character with high moral standards; viz: they don't sleep with
    women they aren't married to. It's that simple.
    _
     
  20. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:31-32 . . Listen carefully: you will conceive in your womb and bear
    a son . . and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father.

    In order for David to be Jesus' father, he had to be Mary's father too
    because her pregnancy wasn't man-made.

    Stay with me because I'm going to trace Jesus' biological genealogy all the
    way back to Adam.

    Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine
    own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God,
    according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

    Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
    according to the flesh

    The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper'
    mah) which is a bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as
    well as to biological progeny; for example:

    Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

    That seed is obviously spiritual progeny. But the seed in Acts 13:22-23 and
    Rom 1:1-3 is biological progeny because David's seed is "according to the
    flesh" i.e. his physical human body.

    Now, unless somebody can prove clearly, conclusively, iron clad, and without
    spin and sophistry that David's body was in no way biologically related to
    Adam's body, then we have to conclude that baby Jesus' body was also
    biologically related to Adam's body.

    Taking this a step further:

    Eve's body was made from Adam's body. (Gen 2:21-23)

    Consequently, when children are conceived by women that are biologically
    related to Eve, then the children are biologically related to Adam: whether
    naturally-conceived or virgin-conceived makes no difference, i.e. every child
    that biologically descends from Eve also biologically descends from Adam.

    Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
    your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

    It's pretty much agreed by most Christians that Eve's predicted offspring
    was realized in Christ; which means that baby Jesus was not only Eve's
    biological offspring but Adam's too because her body was made from Adam's
    body.

    So then; in order to cut Jesus out of Adam's biological posterity it would be
    necessary to cut Mary out of Eve's biological posterity; and I've yet to
    encounter anyone either online or in church able to do that.
    _
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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