The Ones Who Are Left…

[Naomi25]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, all our problems come over which time frame is being spoken of. We tend to mash them all up together.
Just like they used to argue over where Christ would come from - Egypt, Nazareth or Bethlehem - thinking it was impossible that He could come from all three. But He did come from all three, just not on the same day/time.

Revelation talks of two reapings. The first sounds pleasant and the second sounds awful.

14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

Jesus gave us a great clue about this, that it can’t be all mashed together, when He stood up and read from Isaiah but stopped mid sentence. We have no idea if, in time, both reapings happen one right after the other.

And we can see what appears to be a strange repeat of Him coming, once again, from three different places, or TO 3 different places. Does He come from Bozrah with robes stained red, on a cloud to gather together, or to the mount of olives with His feet splitting the mount?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s kind of like…if you asked me what we did when my aunt came to visit and I said, well, let’s see…we went to Bob Evans for breakfast, and then we also went to the farmers market, and then we visited with other family here, and then we had a nice dinner.

that sounds like a very full day. Except my aunt was here for 4 days and we did each of those things on different days, and not in the order I listed them.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

1 Corinthians 5:5: I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

?

 

[bbyrd009]

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there

there are other viable interpretations, Naomi, fwiw
how ya been?

 

[GISMYS_7]

The rapture (catching up) is very real-but you can pray that you be left behind if you want to.
Luke 21:36
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath ""not appointed us to wrath,"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, ""we shall be saved from wrath through him"". (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:8-10)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be ""caught up"" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Keraz]

And we can see what appears to be a strange repeat of Him coming, once again, from three different places, or TO 3 different places. Does He come from Bozrah with robes stained red, on a cloud to gather together, or to the mount of olives with His feet splitting the mount?

They are two separate Days:
It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11
Jesus 'comes' then as the Son of Man. The Isaiah 63:1-6 event, plus as described in over 100 other prophesies.

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:30, all of which say that His wrath is over before He Returns.
His Return is as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, seen by all.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil.

the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

the weeds are the sons of the evil one.

Do we naturally assume this as groups of people and could it not instead be “that which is born of flesh is flesh” and “that which is born of Spirit is Spirit”?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 24:41-43 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

have to wonder about “the one shall be taken, and the other left” when He said “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself” in John 10:16-18 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, all our problems come over which time frame is being spoken of. We tend to mash them all up together.
Just like they used to argue over where Christ would come from - Egypt, Nazareth or Bethlehem - thinking it was impossible that He could come from all three. But He did come from all three, just not on the same day/time.

Revelation talks of two reapings. The first sounds pleasant and the second sounds awful.

14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

Jesus gave us a great clue about this, that it can’t be all mashed together, when He stood up and read from Isaiah but stopped mid sentence. We have no idea if, in time, both reapings happen one right after the other.

And we can see what appears to be a strange repeat of Him coming, once again, from three different places, or TO 3 different places. Does He come from Bozrah with robes stained red, on a cloud to gather together, or to the mount of olives with His feet splitting the mount?

Yes! Excellent points and I thoroughly agree. For all our thoughts and ‘systems’ I tend to think when Christ does come for us, we’ll be surprised. I don’t mind, I like surprises. And I think as long as he comes, we’ll be happy.

 

[Naomi25]

1 Corinthians 5:5: I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

?

I’ve heard a few people’s take on this verse, but I’m not sure I’ve ever been truly satisfied with them. I think, like you’ve put here, my only response is: ?
I don’t know.

 

[Naomi25]

there are other viable interpretations, Naomi, fwiw
how ya been?

Oh goodness, of course there are, I never implied (or intended to) otherwise. I just thought it was an interesting observation to think on. What if it is true? Doesn’t mean it is? I just like to chew a thought around from all angles sometimes.

I’ve been good, thanks. You?

 

[Naomi25]

The rapture (catching up) is very real-but you can pray that you be left behind if you want to.

I think I said that the Rapture was very real. Can you point to where I said otherwise?
And, while I also said that my ‘thought’ was in no way me positing a strong biblical argument, lets say that I was: how is having the ‘evil-doers’ taken away in judgement first, and THEN being gathered together (Raptured) to Christ necessarily a bad thing, especially if that is what the bible teaches?
I mean, if being ‘reaped’ into the lake of fire was to ‘go first’, then I suggest we’d all want to be ‘left behind’.
And, as I said in my OP, I know you devoutly disagree, but the parable of the weeds does distinctly put it in that order. So, you know, it does beg the question a little.
Do you want to know what I truly believe?
We can trust Jesus to send/gather people to where they ultimately belong, and in the correct order.

 

[Naomi25]

the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

the weeds are the sons of the evil one.

Do we naturally assume this as groups of people and could it not instead be “that which is born of flesh is flesh” and “that which is born of Spirit is Spirit”?

Well, one must equal t’other, don’t you think? The parable lists them as ‘sons’…people. But, within people are the clear manifestations of either spirit or flesh. People either choose one or the other, there is no middle ground for us.

 

[Naomi25]

Matthew 24:41-43 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

have to wonder about “the one shall be taken, and the other left” when He said “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself” in John 10:16-18 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Well, I always understood the Matt 24:41 parable needed to be understood in light to its reference to the flood of Noah.

Matthew 24:38-41
[38] For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, [39] and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [40] Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. [41] Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.

Those being ‘taken’ should be understood as those being ‘swept away’, if we hold to the context given.
And, as for the other reference…I’m not sure I see the connection. Christ’s statement that no one takes his life…he lays it down, is a declaration of both power and status, but also of intent and love.
Those who hear his voice, and are therefore bought into the one fold, is reference to what was many peoples becoming one people in Christ, who are therefore under the care and protection of the power and love of the one who would lay down his own life for them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think I said that the Rapture was very real. Can you point to where I said otherwise?
And, while I also said that my ‘thought’ was in no way me positing a strong biblical argument, lets say that I was: how is having the ‘evil-doers’ taken away in judgement first, and THEN being gathered together (Raptured) to Christ necessarily a bad thing, especially if that is what the bible teaches?
I mean, if being ‘reaped’ into the lake of fire was to ‘go first’, then I suggest we’d all want to be ‘left behind’.
And, as I said in my OP, I know you devoutly disagree, but the parable of the weeds does distinctly put it in that order. So, you know, it does beg the question a little.
Do you want to know what I truly believe?
We can trust Jesus to send/gather people to where they ultimately belong, and in the correct order.

Yes, the parable of the weeds does put it in that order. But then the two reapings of revelation seem to put it in a different order. My thought is that maybe the two passages can’t be mashed together and that one is speaking of a different time.

To me, the weeds seems to be speaking of after the tribulation and the revelation passage of 2 reapings seems to be speaking of the gathering together versus those left behind for more testing. Of course that would mean some of those left behind become those not gathered to be burned later on. I don’t know, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I never could reconcile why some verses seem to suggest removal of the righteous first and others seem to suggest removal of the wicked first. They can’t be reconciled unless I consider that they aren’t always speaking of the same exact time or time span.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, the parable of the weeds does put it in that order. But then the two reapings of revelation seem to put it in a different order. My thought is that maybe the two passages can’t be mashed together and that one is speaking of a different time.

To me, the weeds seems to be speaking of after the tribulation and the revelation passage of 2 reapings seems to be speaking of the gathering together versus those left behind for more testing. Of course that would mean some of those left behind become those not gathered to be burned later on. I don’t know, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I never could reconcile why some verses seem to suggest removal of the righteous first and others seem to suggest removal of the wicked first. They can’t be reconciled unless I consider that they aren’t always speaking of the same exact time or time span.

I think it so depends on which side of the bias we come to a passage. Which is something I ‘intellectually’ knew, but have started viewing with a little more cognitive elasticity.
For an Amillennial, they would absolutely view the parable of the weeds as the bad going first. No brainer. And they’d say that Revelation is non-chronological. For a Dispensational person, they’d place their timeframe importance on Revelation, which would steer understanding in the parable.
Who’s to truly say who’s right or wrong? I’ve been going back over some passages I’ve argued for…convincingly, I’d say, in the Amillennial style. But, having decided that even Amillennialism doesn’t always or fully cover what’s in the bible adequately, I’ve wanted to try and view things without bringing that bias with me. And the truth is, a lot of these passages CAN be viewed or argued from either direction, it just depends on where your bias is.
The problem I have currently is…okay, fine. But…where does the summation of them lead? Greater cognitive elasticity aside, I don’t think I have it in me to figure that out…But, I am convinced that we ought not be pleased to sit in a system and claim that it’s “mostly satisfactory”, even while confessing it does have a few weaknesses and flaws. If it comes from scripture, it must be truth; whole truth, the height of truth. Which means we’re missing something. Maybe we’re not meant to figure it out. Maybe, like the Trinity, some things will just be beyond us to comprehend until we shed these sinful bodies. Or, like your say, the way its all been prophesied and described is in such a way that just doesn’t make much sense on paper, but will in space and time.

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

Scripture is very clear, the harvest is the end of this world, verse 41 is the "Second Coming" verse 42 represents the "Final Judgement" of the wicked to the Lake Of Fire, verse 43 the righteous inherit the "Eternal Kingdom" (The End) it's that simple.

Matthew 13:38-43KJV
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think it so depends on which side of the bias we come to a passage. Which is something I ‘intellectually’ knew, but have started viewing with a little more cognitive elasticity.
For an Amillennial, they would absolutely view the parable of the weeds as the bad going first. No brainer. And they’d say that Revelation is non-chronological. For a Dispensational person, they’d place their timeframe importance on Revelation, which would steer understanding in the parable.
Who’s to truly say who’s right or wrong? I’ve been going back over some passages I’ve argued for…convincingly, I’d say, in the Amillennial style. But, having decided that even Amillennialism doesn’t always or fully cover what’s in the bible adequately, I’ve wanted to try and view things without bringing that bias with me. And the truth is, a lot of these passages CAN be viewed or argued from either direction, it just depends on where your bias is.
The problem I have currently is…okay, fine. But…where does the summation of them lead? Greater cognitive elasticity aside, I don’t think I have it in me to figure that out…But, I am convinced that we ought not be pleased to sit in a system and claim that it’s “mostly satisfactory”, even while confessing it does have a few weaknesses and flaws. If it comes from scripture, it must be truth; whole truth, the height of truth. Which means we’re missing something. Maybe we’re not meant to figure it out. Maybe, like the Trinity, some things will just be beyond us to comprehend until we shed these sinful bodies. Or, like your say, the way its all been prophesied and described is in such a way that just doesn’t make much sense on paper, but will in space and time.

Yes. But the only way it all fits is to question WHERE a verse fits, in time. Is it before our gathering together, after our gathering together, after the tribulation, during the tribulation, before or after the millennium? Yes, we do all have bias and I have seen where every eschatological view makes mistakes in the timeframe of some verses in order to fit it into their bias.

It is a fact that some verses state removal of the righteous first and other verses state removal of the wicked first. And the only way to reconcile them is to see that for both to be true, they have to be speaking of different timeframes.

Instead of arguing which verse is correct, assume they are both correct and work outward from there. I don’t mean you, you don’t argue. You just want to see it fit together.

 

[Taken]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[39]The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Scripture from the beginning Teaches:
DIVISION. Obvious, Visible Divisions...(day, night, up, down, in, out...
DIVISION...Among men.(good, wicked, right, wrong, with, without...
Scripture also Teaches;
SEPARATION OF THE DIVIDED.

Your posted Script quotes, are speaking of Separation of the Divided.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.

I Observe your intent to not stray off your point...However since you separate yourself from a Dispensationalist, yet speak your understanding of what they believe, doesn't mean that what you say is "their" understanding.

Briefly responding to your finger polk...
* God is omnipresent.
* God has multiple "names, titles, descriptions"
* Names, titles, descriptions, gives us Clues, as to Where, to whom, the intent, the how, the why...God is communicating with us.
* The same applies to Jesus.
....
There is no "two fold" return of Christ!
The Son of man, came to Earth, from Heaven.
The Son of man, left Earth, returned to Heaven.
The Son of man, SHALL, return TO Earth.
~ We learned multiple, names, titles, descriptions, intents, purposes...of this Son of man...called JESUS.
~ He holds the SAME Godly POWER of omnipresence.
** The Son of Man...(humbled, without power), was sent to Earth.
** Observing "his specific role", by which name, title, description He is called.
** Son of man; likeness as a human Jewish man
** Son of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Joseph...Lawful linage of the House of David (Gods appointed everlasting Throne, lawful entitled kingship)
** Lord...Savior
** Rabbi...Jewish Teacher
** Holy one...Without corruption
** Lamb of God...Appointed Sacrifice of God
** Forgiver of sins...Authority of God
** Word of God...Authority to Speak FOR God
** Son of God...IS God.
** Truth...Can not lie.
** Way...Intercessory.
** Life...Seed OF God.
** Christ...Power & Wisdom & Light OF God.

Point being...WHAT JESUS is called, at any particular inference in Scripture, IS revealing His "role" at that time.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there.

But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

* The Lord - SAVIOR - Descends from Heaven.(NOT the Son of Man)
* The Archangel "SPEAKS"...Angels with Aurhority Speaks....then the one with the TRUMPET Blows the Signal.
* The TRUMPET OF GOD, signifies, a Trumpet Signal IS being blown, BY Gods Authority.
(....THIS information is revealing...what is about to take place, is PER the order and authority of God.)
* WHO HEARS the TrUMP signal, SUMMONS FIRST? THE DeAD..."IN" Christ.
* HOW IS ... A saved person risen UP?...Carried/escorted... BY Angels...VOICE of the archangel...(is he who, by voice Directs Servant Angels.)
THE Trump is sounded, the Servant Angels respond to fulfill their Assignment.
...Dead, rotting bodies "IN Christ" raised UP...(in dead rotting bodies ?)... No, raised IN Glorious Bodies.
....WHY are they FIRST?
.....WHAT does "the Lord"...SAVIOR HAVE WITH HIM, when He descends from Heaven?
...THE Dead "IN" Christs..."REWARD".
....WHAT is their..."REWARD" ?...their SAVED soul, and QUICKENED spirit...that has been waiting "IN HEAVEN"...for their body's to be raised in glory.
.... those who ARE LEFT ???
....seems you have a focus ...OUT OF CONTEXT...
The First...must "receive" "their saved soul, and quickened spirit"... for their BODY to have LIFE in it.
....the ALIVE IN Christ, already HAVE their saved soul, quickened spirit, "LIFE" "in them"...they are NOT "LEFT BEHIND"....they simply "WAIT" their turn. THE most crucial go FIRST...immedialy followed by the ALIVE, risen up, with their saved soul, quickened spirit...
....AND ALL those risen up....ARE "they" IN CHRIST...."they" WITH the Lord...forever more....WHERE the Lord goes, is....so also are they....
.....Son of Man, DID NOT CALL them UP.
.....Christ, DID NOT CALL them UP.
.....The Lord, DID NOT CALL them UP.
.....The Son of Man, DID NOT meet them.
......Christ, DID NOT MEET them.
......The Lord, DOES MEET THEM....
......NOT ON EARTH.
......IN the CLOUDS, they GO.
......IN the AIR, they meet.

IN CONTEXT...the Son of man Returns TO EARTH.
IN CONTEXT...the Lord DOES NOT "return", but rather "descends" and meets SAVED MEN, IN the CLOUDS/AIR.

NOT a duel, "return"...NOT the 'same' place.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken