The Other Sheep;

[H. Richard]

Jesus said:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep “””I have””” which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

It is a common belief that the other sheep are those that are saved under grace; today’s gospel. But the scripture does not support this idea. The words “I HAVE” are present tense, not future tense; In other words he has them already.

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

I know that the theology of the religious churches today do not want this to be true and this thread will become a battle ground. Go to it. I have had my say and the words of what Jesus said will not change. But many will twist it around to support their theology.

 

[Armadillo]

Ephesians 2:20, Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.

We are His house and Jesus says He is the door of the sheep and all that came before Him are thieves and robbers and the sheep did not hear them.

Reading this spiritually, not naturally, who are the sheep and who are the robbers?

John 10:7, John 10:8

 

[Job]

The gentiles.

 

[Angelina]

other folks who live on outer planets similar to ours?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep “””I have””” which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

It is a common belief that the other sheep are those that are saved under grace; today’s gospel. But the scripture does not support this idea. The words “I HAVE” are present tense, not future tense; In other words he has them already.

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

I know that the theology of the religious churches today do not want this to be true and this thread will become a battle ground. Go to it. I have had my say and the words of what Jesus said will not change. But many will twist it around to support their theology.

We like to say that God is timeless, except when it doesn't suit us.

Behold I stand at the door and knock.
If ANYONE hears my voice....
Rev 3:20

That WHOSOEVER believeth in Him...
John 3:16


Of course Jesus came for those who had gone before...
Luke 16 Lazarus. They were waiting for Him.

Didn't He also come for us?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep “””I have””” which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

It is a common belief that the other sheep are those that are saved under grace; today’s gospel. But the scripture does not support this idea. The words “I HAVE” are present tense, not future tense; In other words he has them already.

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

I know that the theology of the religious churches today do not want this to be true and this thread will become a battle ground. Go to it. I have had my say and the words of what Jesus said will not change. But many will twist it around to support their theology.

WHY don't the churches of today want your idea to be true?

 

[FHII]

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

Really haven't thought of it that way. It is interesting...

I believe that the gentile church was predestinated before the foundation of the world. Not only the Church in general, but the individuals in it (as Jesus said, he knows them by name). So it wouldn't be wrong for Jesus to refer to them as his in the present tense.

It is interesting that you drew the line with Abraham. Why? I figure because you believe (rightly so) that Jesus came for Israel. That does leave out quite a few lines. Abraham had a total of 8 sons. Ishmael had 12 sons. Then there are quite a few sons of Esau (Isaac's other son). My point is that Abraham was the father of many nations (as the Bible said). What of them?

But the point is valid in that Jesus did preach to souls in the lower parts of the earth. If that means "grave" and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man/Abraham is based in truth... I can see your point in that Jesus did go to them. Not trying to put words in your mouth so if I've gone astray... My apologies.

I am one who believed Jesus's other sheep were gentiles. But I am intrigued by your theory and am willing to listen. Please don't look at these questions as challenges. They are merely questions.

Thanks H. Richard!

 

[jaybird]

i always believed the other sheep where places that have rich traditions of Jesus teaching there such as Briton, Americas and India. i always liked the stories of briton and the missionaries that went there at the end of the dark ages, they documented that many of the britons where already aware of Jesus and His teachings. some even called it a purer form of Christianity.

 

[H. Richard]

Really haven't thought of it that way. It is interesting...

I believe that the gentile church was predestinated before the foundation of the world. Not only the Church in general, but the individuals in it (as Jesus said, he knows them by name). So it wouldn't be wrong for Jesus to refer to them as his in the present tense.

It is interesting that you drew the line with Abraham. Why? I figure because you believe (rightly so) that Jesus came for Israel. That does leave out quite a few lines. Abraham had a total of 8 sons. Ishmael had 12 sons. Then there are quite a few sons of Esau (Isaac's other son). My point is that Abraham was the father of many nations (as the Bible said). What of them?

But the point is valid in that Jesus did preach to souls in the lower parts of the earth. If that means "grave" and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man/Abraham is based in truth... I can see your point in that Jesus did go to them. Not trying to put words in your mouth so if I've gone astray... My apologies.

I am one who believed Jesus's other sheep were gentiles. But I am intrigued by your theory and am willing to listen. Please don't look at these questions as challenges. They are merely questions.

Thanks H. Richard!

***

Thanks for your reply. In fact all of mankind were Gentiles including Abraham. The Jewish race began when God made a covenant with Abraham based on a promised child.

If people do not read the actual words spoken in the scriptures they can twist them to suit their theology. But to say that Jesus was talking about those that came to Him after His death on the cross is twisting the words ""I HAVE"" to include those that would come to Him in the future after His death and under grace. If Jesus was talking about those under grace then His words are not the truth because He didn't have then at that time.

But as is seen, the religious will not accept what I wrote because they insist that He had to be talking about those under grace. What does it matter if Jesus was only talking about those before Abraham? IMO it matters to those that want to say everything Jesus said was to us today too. They refuse to "rightly divide the word of truth."

Common sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

***

Thanks for your reply. In fact all of mankind were Gentiles including Abraham. The Jewish race began when God made a covenant with Abraham based on a promised child.

If people do not read the actual words spoken in the scriptures they can twist them to suit their theology. But to say that Jesus was talking about those that came to Him after His death on the cross is twisting the words ""I HAVE"" to include those that would come to Him in the future after His death and under grace. If Jesus was talking about those under grace then His words are not the truth because He didn't have then at that time.

But as is seen, the religious will not accept what I wrote because they insist that He had to be talking about those under grace. What does it matter if Jesus was only talking about those before Abraham? IMO it matters to those that want to say everything Jesus said was to us today too. They refuse to "rightly divide the word of truth."

Common sense.

What's the problem with the words of Jesus:
"I have other sheep"
HAVE = Present tense
Which are not of this fold, I must bring them also, and they shall hear my voice and they shall become one flock".

Jesus preached to a woman in Samaria and told her she was speaking to the Messiah.
John 4:7-26
Jesus told her that a time was coming, AND NOW IS when the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:23

Mixed in with Jesus' disciples there were many foreigners who had heard of Him and wanted to hear what He said and became followers.

In the temple in Jerusalem there was the "Court of the Gentiles". Here everyone, could gather.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman WHOEVER drinks of HIS water will never thirst again. He was willing that the hated Samaritans should know Him also.

John 4:34
Jesus said that He came to do the work of the Father.
What is the work of the Father?
Do we forget again the Davidic Covenant?
Jesus was to be A king for ALL the nations, not just the Jews.

Then there will be neither Jew nor gentile,
male nor female...

Although preaching to gentiles did not start earnestly until after the resurrection, Jesus did tell His apostles to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS.
Mathew 28:19

I've never read anywhere that Jesus statement that He had other sheep was referring to the prisoners in paradise.

Could you post something in support of this idea?

 

[H. Richard]

What's the problem with the words of Jesus:
"I have other sheep"
HAVE = Present tense
Which are not of this fold, I must bring them also, and they shall hear my voice and they shall become one flock".

Jesus preached to a woman in Samaria and told her she was speaking to the Messiah.
John 4:7-26
Jesus told her that a time was coming, AND NOW IS when the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:23

Mixed in with Jesus' disciples there were many foreigners who had heard of Him and wanted to hear what He said and became followers.

In the temple in Jerusalem there was the "Court of the Gentiles". Here everyone, could gather.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman WHOEVER drinks of HIS water will never thirst again. He was willing that the hated Samaritans should know Him also.

John 4:34
Jesus said that He came to do the work of the Father.
What is the work of the Father?
Do we forget again the Davidic Covenant?
Jesus was to be A king for ALL the nations, not just the Jews.

Then there will be neither Jew nor gentile,
male nor female...

Although preaching to gentiles did not start earnestly until after the resurrection, Jesus did tell His apostles to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS.
Mathew 28:19

I've never read anywhere that Jesus statement that He had other sheep was referring to the prisoners in paradise.

Could you post something in support of this idea?

***

I already have posted them in the OP.

 

[GodsGrace]

***

I already have posted them in the OP.

There is no scripture posted in the O.P. supporting your position.
I've posted scripture supporting mine.

You only posted that Jesus said there are other sheep. It's understood that this is what you want to discuss.

You must also support this belief of yours, which is not right BTW.

 

[bbyrd009]

***

I already have posted them in the OP.

not really, even if i agree with you that those might be one of the other folds, likely are.
but seems to me that this is limiting the op verse to these, which wadr you then go on to i guess insist upon, in some manner attempting to validate your pov above others, and i gotta tell ya that "since i love me some Jesus, you had better listen to me or you are by definition wrong" lol

 

[GodsGrace]

not really, even if i agree with you that those might be one of the other folds, likely are.
but seems to me that this is limiting the op verse to these, which wadr you then go on to i guess insist upon, in some manner attempting to validate your pov above others, and i gotta tell ya that "since i love me some Jesus, you had better listen to me or you are by definition wrong" lol

And here we are returning to the problem of how to know the truth...

 

[Job]

Isaiah 56
1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.



The Other Sheep are the Gentiles.

l

 

[bbyrd009]

And here we are returning to the problem of how to know the truth...

this suggests truth as an absolute, when we cannot state any absolute truth, it seems to me. I would suggest that the problem is entirely one of perception, and not inception, as is intimated. And strangely enough, it is our perception that we are called to change; "change your mind." Truth becomes seen for what it is, a moving target, that cannot be pinned down by a law, without exception.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Other Sheep are the Gentiles.

so you say, but they had that word back then, so you now have to explain why they did not just use it there imo.

 

[GodsGrace]

this suggests truth as an absolute, when we cannot state any absolute truth, it seems to me. I would suggest that the problem is entirely one of perception, and not inception, as is intimated. And strangely enough, it is our perception that we are called to change; "change your mind." Truth becomes seen for what it is, a moving target, that cannot be pinned down by a law, without exception.

bb !
If TRUTH is not an absolute, it cannot be TRUTH.
I can state truths:
JESUS DIED.
JESUS RESURRECTED.
HE LIVED 2,000 YEARS AGO.
AS THE 2ND PERSON HE ALWAYS WAS.

So much other...

 

[GodsGrace]

this suggests truth as an absolute, when we cannot state any absolute truth, it seems to me. I would suggest that the problem is entirely one of perception, and not inception, as is intimated. And strangely enough, it is our perception that we are called to change; "change your mind." Truth becomes seen for what it is, a moving target, that cannot be pinned down by a law, without exception.

We must not be talking about the same thing...
You're too intelligent to have said the above...

 

[FHII]

8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.



The Other Sheep are the Gentiles.

Good thought. I am still intrigued. I see two points to bring up.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

The sons of the stranger could fit the gentiles. But it also says they will keep his sabbath "from polluting it". Does that describe the gentiles? The gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath, but what of polluting it?

1. Are the gentiles to keep the sabbath?
2. Are they required to keep it and not pollute it?
3. Do they not have to keep it but they shouldn't pollute it?
4. Or... Does it not matter to the gentile at all?

Again, just brainstorming talking points.

Second point: H Richard provided points which seem to work out. I see his reasoning and am listening. But they are not points that clearly make his point. They fit, but that doesn't make it right.

Its the same with you. It could fit, but there is no clearcut evidence to link verse with John 10:16.