The Parable Of The Wedding Banquet

[Hidden In Him]

The full title of this thread is actually "Predestination and the Parable of the Wedding Feast," as that will be the focus of this discussion. But while I am putting it in the Debate Section, I will respond respectfully and honorably to all who post on this thread. In return, I will hold all participants responsible for the same, and report people if necessary.

With that said, post what you think of the following parable and predestination doctrine in light of it. How do you explain this parable in light of your interpretations on the issue?

Blessings in Christ.
Hidden In Him

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14)

Interpretation:

1. The King is God the Father, and the marriage He was arranging was for His Son and Jerusalem, which was compared to the bride of Christ elsewhere in Revelation 21:2. (v.2)

2. The servants He sent out to bid them to come were the apostles, and later several others in the early church, such as Stephen and James, both of whom were killed by the spiritual leaders among the Jews in Jerusalem. Many would not come but made excuses, while the leadership eventually killed all the apostles but John (v.3-6)

3. So God had Jerusalem destroyed, after they rejected the Messiah, their Bridegroom (v.7)

4. God then said to His servants - leaders in the church - "Go out into the highways and byways and call everyone, both good and bad." By this, He was making a clear reference to preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, some of whom were moral, i.e. "the good," yet many of whom were not, i.e. "the bad." (v.8-10).

5. The wedding is then filled with guests. What needs to be kept in mind, however, is that the Lord goes out to examine the wedding guests BEFORE the wedding, which means this section of the Parable is describing events that will take place before His return when He will rapture the church up into Heaven for the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. And when He comes to examine them, one will be found "without a wedding garment." This is speaking of being clothed in the holiness of Almighty God, and adorned in the Holy Spirit, as is also described as part of the wedding narrative in Revelation 19:8. The man with no wedding garment represents those who will call themselves "Christians" in the end-times yet will not walk in holiness, nor be clothed in the Holy Spirit. Hence they will be cast into outer darkness for falsely pretending to be something spiritually which they are not (v.11-13).

An interesting link on a lavish banquet room excavated recently in Jerusalem that dates to around 20 A.D., just prior to the time when Christ began His ministry, and possibly what He based His parable on:
Archaeologists Unveil 2,000-Year-Old Underground Banquet Hall in Jerusalem


Relevance To The Predestination Question

Now we come to the crux of the matter: Why will those with no wedding garments be cast into the outer darkness and not attend the banquet? In verse 14, He states that it will be because "many are called, but few are chosen."

Now, here are a few of the problems I see this parable present for the Predestination position:

1. Why would God call so many if they were never Predestined to be chosen anyway? He called all of Jerusalem yet they would not come. He then had His apostles call the entire Gentile world, "as many as they could find," yet few have responded to this day. Why call the entire planet if only a few will be chosen anyway?

2. Verse 7 states that God the Father was "furious" when Jerusalem killed the ones He sent to invite them to the wedding banquet, and determined because of it to destroy their city and lay it to waste. Why be angry with them if they merely did precisely as He determined they would ahead of time?

Lastly, let me post why I think the predestination position is potentially harmful to others as a teaching. All are free to respond to these arguments as well. I merely point them out as further reasons for not supporting the doctrine:

- The doctrine of predestination teaches that everyone who is saved was chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Some might therefore conclude that no one can know for sure whether he is saved and will go to heaven. Only God’s chosen ones will be saved, and if His decree of election is a mystery and it is impossible to know if you are one of those who will be saved, this can create a massive amount of insecurity in some people. I see this all the time; people paranoid about whether they are saved or not. So all their attention goes to worrying about the question rather than just applying themselves to seeking to serve God.

- Predestination doctrine lends itself to Fatalism, and can take the air out any motivation to evangelize or depart from sin. Some might think, "I have no need to repent of my sins and trust in Christ. God has predestined me to salvation, so I will be saved regardless of what I do." With others, some might tell themselves, "I have no need to exert myself to call sinners to Christ. He will save those He chooses regardless." Fatalism naturally creates a type of spiritual deadness, and lends itself to backsliding into sin, much to the dishonor of the gospel.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

 

[Hidden In Him]

- The doctrine of predestination teaches that everyone who is saved was chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Some might therefore conclude that no one can know for sure whether he is saved and will go to heaven. Only God’s chosen ones will be saved, and if His decree of election is a mystery and it is impossible to know if you are one of those who will be saved, this can create a massive amount of insecurity in some people. I see this all the time; people paranoid about whether they are saved or not. So all their attention goes to worrying about the question rather than just applying themselves to seeking to serve God.

- Predestination doctrine lends itself to Fatalism, and can take the air out any motivation to evangelize or depart from sin. Some might think, "I have no need to repent of my sins and trust in Christ. God has predestined me to salvation, so I will be saved regardless of what I do." With others, some might tell themselves, "I have no need to exert myself to call sinners to Christ. He will save those He chooses regardless." Fatalism naturally creates a type of spiritual deadness, and lends itself to backsliding into sin, much to the dishonor of the gospel.

Note:

- I should also add that regarding double Predestination, the notion that God is deliberately choosing some for torment and suffering in the next life, through no fault of their own, creates an image on the mind of a truly monstrous God, one many would want nothing to do with from a moral standpoint.

Were I to believe this about the God of scripture myself, I likely would not be a Christian either.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. The King is God the Father, and the marriage He was arranging was for His Son and Jerusalem, which was compared to the bride of Christ elsewhere in Revelation 21:2. (v.2)

I will respond to your "I*NTERPRETATION".

1. The King was not inviting people to the wedding, but the wedding banquet. Jesus is in a Jewish culture with a Jewish mindset and speaking to Jewish people!

2. the Wedding itself was only attended by a few people. After the ceremony, the groom would take His bride to their "honeymoon room" and the bridegrooms would stand outside to insure the marriage actually took place aka intercourse.

3. Afterwards, teh bride,groom and party would have a "parade" to the banquest hall, with instruments and merriment along the way. All who heard the music were "invited" Teh grooms father would supply proper robes (if they were of means) to teh guestsa not formally invited.

4. Those without robes were not invited and tried to sneak in. They represent the unsaved.
This is how all who heard understood what Jesus was saying.

- I should also add that regarding double Predestination, the notion that God is deliberately choosing some for torment and suffering in the next life, through no fault of their own, creates an image on the mind of a truly monstrous God, one many would want nothing to do with from a moral standpoint.

Double predestination is a fallacy created by men used to demean biblical predestination. Everyone by default are lost! Only the chosen are saved!

- The doctrine of predestination teaches that everyone who is saved was chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Some might therefore conclude that no one can know for sure whether he is saved and will go to heaven. Only God’s chosen ones will be saved, and if His decree of election is a mystery and it is impossible to know if you are one of those who will be saved, this can create a massive amount of insecurity in some people. I see this all the time; people paranoid about whether they are saved or not. So all their attention goes to worrying about the question rather than just applying themselves to seeking to serve God.

Far less than the unbiblical Armenian position of never knowing if you screwed up enough to lose your salvation.

- Predestination doctrine lends itself to Fatalism, and can take the air out any motivation to evangelize or depart from sin. Some might think, "I have no need to repent of my sins and trust in Christ. God has predestined me to salvation, so I will be saved regardless of what I do." With others, some might tell themselves, "I have no need to exert myself to call sinners to Christ. He will save those He chooses regardless." Fatalism naturally creates a type of spiritual deadness, and lends itself to backsliding into sin, much to the dishonor of the gospel.

Well if it takes the air out of Evangelism, then the person had a wrong motive to start with. The highest reason why anyone should share the gospel is because we are commanded to. We do not lead a single soul to Jesus, the Holy Spirit does that! He just uses us pices of dust to do the talking. It is the gospel that has all the power to save as Paul said in romans. We need to obey and not get hyped up on how lost people are as the motivator to share the gospel.

1. Why would God call so many if they were never Predestined to be chosen anyway? He called all of Jerusalem yet they would not come. He then had His apostles call the entire Gentile world, "as many as they could find," yet few have responded to this day. Why call the entire planet if only a few will be chosen anyway?

Because He does! He need not consult us why He tells us to do things. But as Paulwrote that for some we will be a savor unto life and to others a stench unto death. I suspect it is that those inlands that have access to teh gospel will not be able to excuse themselves . Could be wrong.

2. Verse 7 states that God the Father was "furious" when Jerusalem killed the ones He sent to invite them to the wedding banquet, and determined because of it to destroy their city and lay it to waste. Why be angry with them if they merely did precisely as He determined they would ahead of time?

Well that tells me you really do not understand biblical predestination. It is nothing to do with making people or forcing thyem to do things . But even if it does God says this:

Romans 9:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[ScottA]

The full title of this thread is actually "Predestination and the Parable of the Wedding Feast," as that will be the focus of this discussion. But while I am putting it in the Debate Section, I will respond respectfully and honorably to all who post on this thread. In return, I will hold all participants responsible for the same. Fair warning: All doing not will be reported.

With that said, post what you think of the following parable and predestination doctrine in light of it. How do you explain this parable in light of your interpretations on the issue?

Blessings in Christ.
Hidden In Him

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14)

Interpretation:

1. The King is God the Father, and the marriage He was arranging was for His Son and Jerusalem, which was compared to the bride of Christ elsewhere in Revelation 21:2. (v.2)

2. The servants He sent out to bid them to come were the apostles, and later several others in the early church, such as Stephen and James, both of whom were killed by the spiritual leaders among the Jews in Jerusalem. Many would not come but made excuses, while the leadership eventually killed all the apostles but John (v.3-6)

3. So God had Jerusalem destroyed, after they rejected the Messiah, their Bridegroom (v.7)

4. God then said to His servants - leaders in the church - "Go out into the highways and byways and call everyone, both good and bad." By this, He was making a clear reference to preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, some of whom were moral, i.e. "the good," yet many of whom were not, i.e. "the bad." (v.8-10).

5. The wedding is then filled with guests. What needs to be kept in mind, however, is that the Lord goes out to examine the wedding guests BEFORE the wedding, which means this section of the Parable is describing events that will take place before His return when He will rapture the church up into Heaven for the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. And when He comes to examine them, one will be found "without a wedding garment." This is speaking of being clothed in the holiness of Almighty God, and adorned in the Holy Spirit, as is also described as part of the wedding narrative in Revelation 19:8. The man with no wedding garment represents those who will call themselves "Christians" in the end-times yet will not walk in holiness, nor be clothed in the Holy Spirit. Hence they will be cast into outer darkness for falsely pretending to be something spiritually which they are not (v.11-13)...


Relevance To The Predestination Question

Now we come to the crux of the matter: Why will those with no wedding garments be cast into the outer darkness and not attend the banquet? In verse 14, He states that it will be because "many are called, but few are chosen."

Now, here are a few of the problems I see this parable present for the Predestination position:

1. Why would God call so many if they were never Predestined to be chosen anyway? He called all of Jerusalem yet they would not come. He then had His apostles call the entire Gentile world, "as many as they could find," yet few have responded to this day. Why call the entire planet if only a few will be chosen anyway?

2. Verse 7 states that God the Father was "furious" when Jerusalem killed the ones He sent to invite them to the wedding banquet, and determined because of it to destroy their city and lay it to waste. Why be angry with them if they merely did precisely as He determined they would ahead of time?

Lastly, let me post why I think the predestination position is potentially harmful to others as a teaching. All are free to respond to these arguments as well. I merely point them out as further reasons for not supporting the doctrine:

- The doctrine of predestination teaches that everyone who is saved was chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Some might therefore conclude that no one can know for sure whether he is saved and will go to heaven. Only God’s chosen ones will be saved, and if His decree of election is a mystery and it is impossible to know if you are one of those who will be saved, this can create a massive amount of insecurity in some people. I see this all the time; people paranoid about whether they are saved or not. So all their attention goes to worrying about the question rather than just applying themselves to seeking to serve God.

- Predestination doctrine lends itself to Fatalism, and can take the air out any motivation to evangelize or depart from sin. Some might think, "I have no need to repent of my sins and trust in Christ. God has predestined me to salvation, so I will be saved regardless of what I do." With others, some might tell themselves, "I have no need to exert myself to call sinners to Christ. He will save those He chooses regardless." Fatalism naturally creates a type of spiritual deadness, and lends itself to backsliding into sin, much to the dishonor of the gospel.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

You have presented much to be explained and some which is debatable or in need of correction. But it appears that the real issue that you wish to discuss, is that of predestination. I'll start there. Please, as we are all invited and characters portrayed in the parable, try to imagine being within the image that is created:

Now then, within the parable of the wedding...what time is it? Is it as we might imagine, in the Spring when many weddings take place, in the afternoon because a dinner is to follow, what time does the image suggest?

The problem with most answers, is the same problem that occurs with most other things that we can imagine about the parable also: We imagine it from our perspective, all of which is out of context according to Christ. He did not say, "Your weddings are like.", or "Your dinners are like." But rather, "The kingdom of heaven is like." Do you see the problem?

The problem is, the kingdom of heaven is without "shadow of turning" (James 1:17)-- no seasons, no morning or evening, etc.. So, if we do likewise with every analogy of the parable...we are not even in the ballpark.

Never mind if you got your interpretation correct or not point by point-- It doesn't matter. That is not what Jesus is getting at. Sure, there are morals to the story that can be discussed for millennia...but why wander in that desert? None of it means anything about the kingdom of heaven, until it is first looked at in that [timeless] context, which Jesus stated from the start.

So then...does "predestination" have to do with the kingdom of heaven...or does it have to do with the kingdoms of this world, where people keep clocks and calendars that the kingdom of God does not?​

What then was the apostle Paul doing when he introduced the term into scripture?

Well...in order to properly understand the context, the first question again is the same as with the parable: What time is it, what season? Well--he was in the delivery room! The spiritual children of God were just being born [again]. Some had not even entered into see the midwife or Physician, some were just entering in, and some just coming out and into the Spirit. That is not the context in which we now are likely to place ourselves in when trying to understand him, and that is much of the problem that we now have, even causing disagreements. And for what...so we can impose our own context on the matter from our own understand? Such foolishness!

No, but rather, we should understand that Paul is indeed talking to young expectant mothers, newborns, and babes-- and he, like Jesus is only speaking in parable fashion using a familiar context, rather than the actual heavenly context of one passing from death to life, strictly for the most elementary understanding...as speaking to children.

Incidentally, this is also what is meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Timothy 2:15), which is to be by context. Without which, we are not even in the ballpark, but destine for outer darkness. Sadly, this problem is epidemic, both among non-believers and believers alike.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, but rather, we should understand that Paul is indeed talking to young expectant mothers, newborns, and babes-- and he, like Jesus is only speaking in parable fashion using a familiar context, rather than the actual heavenly context of one passing from death to life, strictly for the most elementary understanding...as speaking to children.

Hi, Scott.

In order to know what context you are talking about, I would need to know what passage you are referring to first. You made a few references to terms used in various passages, but I can't tell what passages in particular you are citing.

Thanks for the response.
- H

 

[ScottA]

Hi, Scott.

In order to know what context you are talking about, I would need to know what passage you are referring to first. You made a few references to terms used in various passages, but I can't tell what passages in particular you are citing.

Thanks for the response.
- H

Not that you should not be able to do your own homework or recognize the words of scripture when you hear or read them, but other than the passages that you quoted, I have added chapter and verse references to my earlier post. I think I got them all. Hope that helps.

But I should caution you, the immediate context of the original scriptural setting is not always the spiritual meta-narrative context. "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” Isaiah 2810. The same is true of much of what Jesus quoted, and the prophecies regarding Him in the Psalms, etc..

 

[Hidden In Him]

I will respond to your "I*NTERPRETATION".

1. The King was not inviting people to the wedding, but the wedding banquet. Jesus is in a Jewish culture with a Jewish mindset and speaking to Jewish people!

2. the Wedding itself was only attended by a few people. After the ceremony, the groom would take His bride to their "honeymoon room" and the bridegrooms would stand outside to insure the marriage actually took place aka intercourse.

3. Afterwards, teh bride,groom and party would have a "parade" to the banquest hall, with instruments and merriment along the way. All who heard the music were "invited" Teh grooms father would supply proper robes (if they were of means) to teh guestsa not formally invited.

4. Those without robes were not invited and tried to sneak in. They represent the unsaved.
This is how all who heard understood what Jesus was saying.

Blessings in Christ, Ronald, and I appreciate the response. Good to be able to analyze things a little closer together.

Now about your contention that the banquet takes place after the consummation of the marriage, what sources are you getting that from? The sources I have found say the actual consummation doesn't take place until the honeymoon, which is a week after the wedding, although maybe I am incorrect on that part, but here is what I found:

The Week After the Wedding
In Jewish tradition, bride and groom do not embark upon a honeymoon immediately after the wedding; they remain for a full week (three days if it is a second marriage for both) to celebrate. These Shiv’at Y’mei Mishteh, or Seven Days of Feasting, are said to have been ordained by Moses, and are a custom that is thought to go back to patriarchal times. These feasting days serve as a focal point for communal rejoicing and for the couple to begin their married life together while in the lap of the community.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/after-the-wedding-ceremony/

What this same source says regarding their brief time of seclusion in the Yihud room is that they are simply alone together and share a meal, as a way to relieve the stress of the wedding and to eat after having fasted throughout the day:

Yihud provides a period of respite for the newly married couple, an interval of tranquility for them to enjoy together in total solitude amidst the turmoil of the wedding. It is customary for the two to have their first meal as husband and wife together in the yihud room. Both will have been fasting all day, and this food will be their first of the day. It is important that the yihud room be prepared before the wedding. It should provide absolute privacy. It should also have food for a light repast for the couple.

Other sources confirm that although they are alone for what is customarily about 10 minutes, nothing sexual happens:

Having been married in an Orthodox Jewish wedding ceremony and having been on both sides of the yichud door, what goes on is the husband and wife must stay alone for about 10 minutes. Nothing sexual goes on. Usually the husband and wife compose themselves. The wife often changes shoes, removed her veil, and makes herself more comfortable for the second half of the wedding, which consists of food and dancing,. Lots of dancing. I don't know how comfortable anyone would be knowing I'm right outside the door with another witness knocking on their door after 10 minutes.
https://www.quora.com/What-do-they-do-in-the-yichud-room

So according to Jewish tradition, at least from what I can tell, the wedding banquet precedes the actual consummation of the marriage, and this would run an accurate parallel with the return of Christ. Those who are not invited to the wedding feast are left behind, the door is closed, and then the banquet takes place, followed by our union with Christ our heavenly Bridegroom forever.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Romans 9:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I was hoping to stay on a closer analysis of the Parable first to start with. But we can go through individual passages on the question of Predestination afterwards.

God bless,
- H

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Blessings in Christ, Ronald, and I appreciate the response. Good to be able to analyze things a little closer together.

Now about your contention that the banquet takes place after the consummation of the marriage, what sources are you getting that from? The sources I have found say the actual consummation doesn't take place until the honeymoon, which is a week after the wedding, although maybe I am incorrect on that part, but here is what I found:

The Week After the Wedding
In Jewish tradition, bride and groom do not embark upon a honeymoon immediately after the wedding; they remain for a full week (three days if it is a second marriage for both) to celebrate. These Shiv’at Y’mei Mishteh, or Seven Days of Feasting, are said to have been ordained by Moses, and are a custom that is thought to go back to patriarchal times. These feasting days serve as a focal point for communal rejoicing and for the couple to begin their married life together while in the lap of the community.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/after-the-wedding-ceremony/

What this same source says regarding their brief time of seclusion in the Yihud room is that they are simply alone together and share a meal, as a way to relieve the stress of the wedding and to eat after having fasted throughout the day:

Yihud provides a period of respite for the newly married couple, an interval of tranquility for them to enjoy together in total solitude amidst the turmoil of the wedding. It is customary for the two to have their first meal as husband and wife together in the yihud room. Both will have been fasting all day, and this food will be their first of the day. It is important that the yihud room be prepared before the wedding. It should provide absolute privacy. It should also have food for a light repast for the couple.

Other sources confirm that although they are alone for what is customarily about 10 minutes, nothing sexual happens:

Having been married in an Orthodox Jewish wedding ceremony and having been on both sides of the yichud door, what goes on is the husband and wife must stay alone for about 10 minutes. Nothing sexual goes on. Usually the husband and wife compose themselves. The wife often changes shoes, removed her veil, and makes herself more comfortable for the second half of the wedding, which consists of food and dancing,. Lots of dancing. I don't know how comfortable anyone would be knowing I'm right outside the door with another witness knocking on their door after 10 minutes.
https://www.quora.com/What-do-they-do-in-the-yichud-room

So according to Jewish tradition, at least from what I can tell, the wedding banquet precedes the actual consummation of the marriage, and this would run an accurate parallel with the return of Christ. Those who are not invited to the wedding feast are left behind, the door is closed, and then the banquet takes place, followed by our union with Christ our heavenly Bridegroom forever.

Well most of what you write is current tradition based on the ancient traditions. remember a couple is not married until intercourse takes place, that is both OT and NT teaching for marriage is 2 becoming 1 and that does not take place until teh couple has intercourse. I see "honeymoon was a poor choice of words, for that connotes a going away. So let us call it the marriage night. As the couple would wed at teh grooms fathers house with butr a few people present. After teh Rabbi blessed the couple they would retire to the "home" teh groom had built at his fathers house and then they would consummate the marriage.

Then the procession to teh wedding feast which could either be in the fathers court yard if big enough, but mostly held elsewhere.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is a Messianic Jew, native Hebrew Speaker and extraordinarily well versed in ancient Jewish customs has written on this.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I was hoping to stay on a closer analysis of the Parable first to start with. But we can go through individual passages on the question of Predestination afterwards.

God bless,
- H

Well you did pose the parable as the crux of what you saw as the problem with predestination. You made it appear the parable itself was just an introduction to show why you think predestination is unbiblical as the major theme.

However, when one does some study on teh life and times Jesus lived in- this parable becomes very straightforward and easy to understand.

MBS_Master (arielcontent.org)

this is an excellent study on teh entire Jewish wedding system in Jesus day and how it involves the church and Jesus in our relationship with Him as His espoused.

 

[Hidden In Him]

MBS_Master (arielcontent.org)

this is an excellent study on teh entire Jewish wedding system in Jesus day and how it involves the church and Jesus in our relationship with Him as His espoused.

Read through it, and some of it I found helpful. But there were several sections where he is teaching rather strange eschatology. Not sure if treating it all would turn this thread into a study on his piece rather than a study on mine, and since this is my thread I favor the latter, so I'm not quite sure how to respond, Lol.

This piece doesn't seem to directly refer to the consummation, however, or am I wrong there? Are you saying it is inferred in one of his sections?

 

[Lambano]

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14)

A couple of comments:

The Jewish concept of "election" is not the same as the Calvinistic understanding. The Jewish understanding of election is stated in Deuteronomy:

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 7:14)

Election is THE key concept in the Jewish people's understanding of who they are. It has nothing to do with predestination, or personal election to salvation.

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet is one of many that warn the Jewish people about the potential loss of their special status. Others include the Parable of the Tenants, the Parable of the Unrighteous Manager, and the Parable of the Dinner in Luke. (Paul will later note in Romans 11:28-29 that their special status is irrevocable. That's for another thread.)

The force of "Many are Invited, but few are Chosen" is that at the Wedding feast, there will be few of God's Chosen People, but many of the Goyim. This would be devasting to His Jewish listeners and was intended to shake them out of their "we have Abraham as our father" complacency, their confidence in their own election. See also Matthew 8:10-12.

Here's where I'm not sure of my analysis: Jesus ends the parable with the vignette about the guest (assumed to be a Gentile) who wasn't dressed properly for a formal wedding feast. The commentaries I've seen think this has to do with putting on righteous works or something of that nature. Why is this vignette there? Why does Jesus end the parable this way?

 

[Hidden In Him]

A couple of comments:

The Jewish concept of "election" is not the same as the Calvinistic understanding. The Jewish understanding of election is stated in Deuteronomy:

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 7:14)

Election is THE key concept in the Jewish people's understanding of who they are. It has nothing to do with predestination, or personal election to salvation.

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet is one of many that warn the Jewish people about the potential loss of their special status. Others include the Parable of the Tenants, the Parable of the Unrighteous Manager, and the Parable of the Dinner in Luke. (Paul will later note in Romans 11:28-29 that their special status is irrevocable. That's for another thread.)

The force of "Many are Invited, but few are Chosen" is that at the Wedding feast, there will be few of God's Chosen People, but many of the Goyim. This would be devasting to His Jewish listeners and was intended to shake them out of their "we have Abraham as our father" complacency, their confidence in their own election. See also Matthew 8:10-12.

Here's where I'm not sure of my analysis: Jesus ends the parable with the vignette about the guest (assumed to be a Gentile) who wasn't dressed properly for a formal wedding feast. The commentaries I've seen think this has to do with putting on righteous works or something of that nature. Why is that there? Why does Jesus end the parable on this note?

I liked your comments. I think the answer to your question is because despite turning to the Gentiles instead, God will still demand righteousness of them just as He did of the Jews.

I also think it's an allusion to the return of Gnosticism in the earth in the end-times, and how there will be some who arise claiming to be "Christians" yet do not walk in holiness or righteousness, because they are not clothed in the Holy Spirit but a demonic one.

 

[Lambano]

I liked your comments. I think the answer to your question is because despite turning to the Gentiles instead, God will still demand righteousness of them just as He did of the Jews.

That would be the interpretation, though it conflicts with Paul's "no man shall be justified through works of Torah" principle. But if you're correct (and many/most interpreters agree with you), it's an ongoing thing, not just an allusion to the end-times. (As you may noticed, I stay out of the end-times threads. That's a rough neighborhood after dark.)

I did consider that Jesus in a prophetic role did intend these words for an audience that was not present at the time. That's a bit of stretch from my normal hermeneutics.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Read through it, and some of it I found helpful. But there were several sections where he is teaching rather strange eschatology. Not sure if treating it all would turn this thread into a study on his piece rather than a study on mine, and since this is my thread I favor the latter, so I'm not quite sure how to respond, Lol.

This piece doesn't seem to directly refer to the consummation, however, or am I wrong there? Are you saying it is inferred in one of his sections?

Well not in this manuscript. But it is spelled out in Scripture when it says marriage is two becoming one flesh. People are not married when they finish a ceremony. The ceremony (whatever it may be) only authorizes thee two before what ever group is doing it to become one flesh thus man and wife.

He goes into great detail on this in his four volume LIfe of Jesus the Messiah from a Hebrew Perspective. but the very fact you used the word consummation shows even you understand one is not married until they engage in the act of marriage(intercourse).

Now today we do things radically different than in Jesus times, even in Jewish circles. But this is how it was when Jesus spoke the parable.

That was the whole purpose of the goomsmen in Jewish circles- to "witness" (through sounds) thatr the wedding ceremony was consummated and the couple is actually married!

 

[Christ4Me]

The full title of this thread is actually "Predestination and the Parable of the Wedding Feast," as that will be the focus of this discussion. But while I am putting it in the Debate Section, I will respond respectfully and honorably to all who post on this thread. In return, I will hold all participants responsible for the same, and report people if necessary.

With that said, post what you think of the following parable and predestination doctrine in light of it. How do you explain this parable in light of your interpretations on the issue?

Blessings in Christ.
Hidden In Him

I am including the parable before that one.

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14)

I can see how both parables were addressing the nation of Israel before their rejection of the chief cornerstone for why the gospel went out to the Gentiles, but at the end of the second parable is how the King will judge those within for not being ready for not wearing their wedding garment.

Since the Father & Jesus are One, then "they" both reign as King as the Son is King also. That is how "They" will judge any one as the One God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am including the parable before that one.

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14)

I can see how both parables were addressing the nation of Israel before their rejection of the chief cornerstone for why the gospel went out to the Gentiles, but at the end of the second parable is how the King will judge those within for not being ready for not wearing their wedding garment.

Since the Father & Jesus are One, then "they" both reign as King as the Son is King also. That is how "They" will judge any one as the One God.

Israel as a nation had already rejected Jesus as Messiah, that is found in Matt. 12. The whole purpose of most of the parables was to hide the truth from teh masses as it says in Matt. 13.

Jesus is not yet reigning as King. Jesus has three offices He holds in time.

Prophet, Priest, King. they are not concurrent , but consecutive! Jesus was Prophet until some time near His crucifixion. Then from His resurrection until He returns He is the Great HIgh Priest. As it is written He currently lives to make intercession for the church! When He returns He assumes His role as King until after teh great white throne judgment, when He turnsw the Kingdom back to His Father and submits back to His Father!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well not in this manuscript. But it is spelled out in Scripture when it says marriage is two becoming one flesh. People are not married when they finish a ceremony. The ceremony (whatever it may be) only authorizes thee two before what ever group is doing it to become one flesh thus man and wife.

That was the whole purpose of the goomsmen in Jewish circles- to "witness" (through sounds) thatr the wedding ceremony was consummated and the couple is actually married!

This relates to the confusion I often see among younger Christians these days. They fail to see that a wedding is observed to witness to the world that they are married, not to God, and you see this even more so in the Jewish weddings. It witnessed to their marriage in the sight of man.

As for the consummation, that was the true union, yes. But that was not something God desired men to have to witness. Witnessing the extensive and elaborate wedding proceedings were to accomplish that, so that the latter would not be necessary.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am including the parable before that one.

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14)

I can see how both parables were addressing the nation of Israel before their rejection of the chief cornerstone for why the gospel went out to the Gentiles, but at the end of the second parable is how the King will judge those within for not being ready for not wearing their wedding garment.

Since the Father & Jesus are One, then "they" both reign as King as the Son is King also. That is how "They" will judge any one as the One God.

Excellent. I was aware of the previous parable as well, and almost posted it in the OP for context, but I thought it would be too long. But I treated this parable somewhere else before as I recall. Let me see if I can't find it... might not have been here.

 

[Christ4Me]

Excellent. I was aware of the previous parable as well, and almost posted it in the OP for context, but I thought it would be too long. But I treated this parable somewhere else before as I recall. Let me see if I can't find it... might not have been here.

One truth I have learned today from those two parables is how the Father is also King along with His Son. It would stand to reasons since They both share the same hand in salvation and thus they share the same reign as King. For Jesus to judge any one in the world as the King of kings as the Father is King also, thus by the Two Witnesses as the One King, They can judge anyone as King of kings.