The Pre-Trib Rapture

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marks

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When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!
 

GISMYS_7

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The great tribulation is God's wrath against this sinful God rejecting world not His church(born-again believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
Jesus says===“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
 

ewq1938

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2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Pre-tribbers usually correctly understand that this gathering of the saints is the rapture.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yet, they somehow cannot see that this is same exact gathering/rapture. Both of these are addressing the one and only rapture of the church and it is after the end of tribulation just as Paul said it was:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since Christ brings the dead in Christ with him after the Great Tribulation has ended, we know the above verses are speaking of the 7th trump coming of Christ and the rapture is written by Paul to take place that day.
 

Keraz

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Since Christ brings the dead in Christ with him after the Great Tribulation has ended, we know the above verses are speaking of the 7th trump coming of Christ and the rapture is written by Paul to take place that day.
We know from Revelation 20:4-5, that the only dead in Christ, who will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be those who - for the sake of God's word and their witness to Jesus, had been beheaded....during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control.
The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment, after the thousand years have ended.

As for a 'rapture', that 'harparzo' is not to heaven, but to where Jesus is; in the clouds and then in Jerusalem. Acts 1:11, Zechariah 14:3
A horizontal transportation, on the Day Jesus comes down from heaven to commence His Millennium reign.

The Seventh Trumpet; Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-19; says nothing about humans going to heaven, or anywhere at that time.
Thinking the Bible means something that it doesn't actually say; is a bad mistake and leads to high expectations, that may cause a loss of faith as dramatic events happen.
 

ewq1938

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We know from Revelation 20:4-5, that the only dead in Christ, who will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be those who - for the sake of God's word and their witness to Jesus, had been beheaded....during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light one one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.
 
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Nancy

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We know from Revelation 20:4-5, that the only dead in Christ, who will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be those who - for the sake of God's word and their witness to Jesus, had been beheaded....during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control.
The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment, after the thousand years have ended.

As for a 'rapture', that 'harparzo' is not to heaven, but to where Jesus is; in the clouds and then in Jerusalem. Acts 1:11, Zechariah 14:3
A horizontal transportation, on the Day Jesus comes down from heaven to commence His Millennium reign.

The Seventh Trumpet; Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-19; says nothing about humans going to heaven, or anywhere at that time.
Thinking the Bible means something that it doesn't actually say; is a bad mistake and leads to high expectations, that may cause a loss of faith as dramatic events happen.

Agreed, many negative implications with this belief.
If anything, BE PREPARED in case one just might be "wrong" :eek: Lol...
 
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Keraz

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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light one one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.
Paul does NOT say ALL the dead.
You need to think rationally about this. Will Jesus raise ALL the dead Christians when He Returns? Remember that people must be Judged for their deeds and faith, which does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Only the GT martyrs, those who proved their faith unto death, during that terrible time, are specifically said to be worthy of resurrection at the Return. They will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:6
Wouldn't there be rather an over supply of Priests and co-rulers, if every dead Christian was raised for the Millennium?
 

ewq1938

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Paul does NOT say ALL the dead.

But that is the understood context. For it to be limited it would have a limiting word like "some".

In many passages there are only two mass resurrection events, one of the saved and one of the unsaved and yes that all of both groups.

You need to think rationally about this. Will Jesus raise ALL the dead Christians when He Returns?

Yes of course.

Remember that people must be Judged for their deeds and faith, which does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

The saved are judged at the second coming not a thousand years later at the resurrection and judgment of the unsaved.


Only the GT martyrs, those who proved their faith unto death, during that terrible time, are specifically said to be worthy of resurrection at the Return.

Incorrect.


They will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:6
Wouldn't there be rather an over supply of Priests and co-rulers, if every dead Christian was raised for the Millennium?

Isn't that like saying the eternity has an over supply of years?
 
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n2thelight

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If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

All will be judged at the same time ,which is after the millennium
Why are you separating Israel from the Church are we not ALL one body with Christ as the Head?

Really don't know where you get the 144,000 being only men ,also when one is saved they become grafted into Israel whom is and has always been the Church.

There's a great deception about to come and it's gonna be the greatest in the history of mankind ,and that's satan pretending to be Christ.

Either you know this before it happens or God will send you that strong delusion and you will believe the lie. Unless you are sealed you will be deceived period
 

ewq1938

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All will be judged at the same time ,which is after the millennium


The saved are judged before the Millennium but the unsaved and only the unsaved are judged after it.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.
 
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n2thelight

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Paul does NOT say ALL the dead.
You need to think rationally about this. Will Jesus raise ALL the dead Christians when He Returns? Remember that people must be Judged for their deeds and faith, which does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Only the GT martyrs, those who proved their faith unto death, during that terrible time, are specifically said to be worthy of resurrection at the Return. They will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:6
Wouldn't there be rather an over supply of Priests and co-rulers, if every dead Christian was raised for the Millennium?

Nobody will be resurrected at the return of Christ ALL shall be changed ,saint and sinner alike, into their spiritual bodies with the difference being the state of the soul, meaning those in Christ at that return do not have to worry about the 2nd death.
At death the soul returns to the Father they are changed at that time ,spoken of by Paul .

They flesh will not rise it returns to the dust where it came from .
 

ewq1938

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Nobody will be resurrected at the return of Christ ALL shall be changed


Scripture disagrees:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
 
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n2thelight

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The saved are judged before the Millennium but the unsaved and only the unsaved are judged after it.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.

I see what you're saying and you are correct . However in Rev 20:4 the 1000 years has started
Only the dead ,ie those with a mortal soul will be judged at the end of the millennium
 
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n2thelight

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Scripture disagrees:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over
"them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.


I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

1thess4
 

ewq1938

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"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

1thess4


The above about where the dead are is correct, and soul sleep is a false doctrine.
 

Timtofly

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Really don't know where you get the 144,000 being only men ,also when one is saved they become grafted into Israel whom is and has always been the Church.
Really don't know why any one would call the original 12 disciples all men either? If all 144k had their names printed out 1900 years ago, would that give away who the 144k would actually be? If you do not think there will literally be 144k people to be the disciples of Jesus at the Second Coming, why did John even mention it? Revelation 14:

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

I guess there could be woman who would not be defiled by other women, but is this literal or symbolic? Are you saying some of these could be virgin women not defiled by other women? How does that make sense if God condemns same sex unions? The context of "not defiled by women" is either sexist or implies they are all males.
 

n2thelight

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The above about where the dead are is correct, and soul sleep is a false doctrine.

Okay so where is the soul, and is it not different from the flesh? Would you have the souls that come from Heaven with Christ return to their flesh (dirt)

If that's the case the people still alive would not need to be changed

Now back to Paul
I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

. Paul is now going to explain our flesh body to us, not the soul, the spirit, or our thought process, but our flesh and blood body.

I Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

Paul is comparing our flesh body with other living things, such as a grain of wheat. When the seed is separated from its parent plant it is as naked as a new born baby. This is the body of the wheat, and this is not the grain that you see coming for in new plants next year. This seed of wheat that you set aside for the next years crop is what must die before it can raise up again in a new form. That body of wheat is gone, and that is what happens to our flesh. It must die before the new beautiful spiritual body can come forth.

The flesh body must die and be buried in the ground, for no where is it recorded that a flesh body will resurrect from the dead. Christ's body did rise again, for it paid the price for our sins for one and all times. However, when Christ's body came out of the tomb, it had to be transfigured or flesh man simply could not see Him.

The body of the wheat or of flesh that dies and is planted in the ground is not the same body that springs forth into new life. It is the Spiritual body that ascends to be with the Father, not the flesh. Again the subject is the physical body.

When you plant any seed, flowers, corn, or wheat, there is an embryo deep inside of the body of that plant. As the body of the parent plant decays, it feeds this little embryo that is deep within that seed or kernel of corn. Then when the water, and temperature, and soil are just right, then that embryo springs forth into new life, and a new plant is formed. That is exactly as it is with our flesh body, the old flesh body must die before the new life of our new spiritual of soul body can come forth. The time that it takes for the new spiritual life to come from the death of the old flesh body is instant.

The instant that the flesh body dies, the soul and spirit body is present with the Lord that gave it in the first place. The flesh decays back into the elements of the earth that it is made of, and your soul returns to the Father. Paul could not have made it more simpler than the using of a grain of wheat in comparison to our flesh bodies. Just as all of nature functions, so it is with man.

Those people that teach that the dead body is going to rise up out of the grave simply don't know what they are talking about. Flesh causes you to sin, and when we are done with this flesh body, it is done away with. Why would you want any part of that old decaying body. The flesh body dies to give your spiritual body new life and a new body that will not age and get sick.

I Corinthians 15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

We are still taking about bodies, and not souls. "celestial bodies" are heavenly bodies, while "terrestrial bodies" are earthly bodies. Paul is telling you that within what you call "self", you have two bodies, and earthly body that will die off and return to the elements that it is made of, and a heavenly body or soul that at the death of the earthly body returns to the heavenly realm or dimension that it came from. Each of the bodies have their own glory or dignity and honor.

I Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

This is as it is, and it is for this reason that God calls His children "stars". God asked Job to give Him answer to this question in Job 38. Job 38:7; "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Each of the stars are different and so are each of the children that God created. Every one of them has a different body. Yet every last one of them was created for God's pleasure.

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."

I Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

This is what happens to the dead body, for this body is doomed to corruption of decay from the day each of us are born, to the day we die. That is the ageing process, and no matter how you try to extend your life, it will not be for more than a few years. When this flesh body is finished, the soul that is within it is raised in incorruption. We are talking about flesh bodies, and what happen to them.


Our flesh bodies are corruptible, and it is the greatest pollutant on the face of this earth. It is for the satisfaction of the needs of the flesh that all pollution is caused, whether in the air, in the waters, or across our land, all pollution is for the satisfying of these flesh bodies that are corrupting or decaying and need attention to be repaired. Flesh is corruptible. However when the corruptible body is planted in the earth, a new body comes for that does not desire nor need then things of the flesh to satisfy its needs. This new body is our incorruptible soul body.

I Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"

In the flesh body we fall short all of the time, whereas when our soul body is raised we have God's power within us. In that new body we will have that body that is not weak nor will it get sick and age. And when we are raised it is like being turned lose into a freedom that these fleshly minds can never understand. We are never to shorten the time in this flesh body that God has given us for we have a duty and mission here in the flesh, but on that day when it is all over, we will have that glory and power God has placed in our new incorruptible body.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

1corin15
 

Enoch111

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Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.
Correct. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or more precisely Resurrection/Rapture is the true Bible doctrine. And all attacks against it are ultimately from the devil, who hates this truth. At the same time it is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME to try and convince the naysayers and scoffers.
 
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David H.

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Correct. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or more precisely Resurrection/Rapture is the true Bible doctrine. And all attacks against it are ultimately from the devil, who hates this truth. At the same time it is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME to try and convince the naysayers and scoffers.

So because I am a pre-wrather, I am Promoting something "from the devil"?
 

Enoch111

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So because I am a pre-wrather, I am Promoting something "from the devil"?
Well pre-wrath means giving the devil more credit than his due. And he loves that. The entire 70th week of Daniel is under God's wrath, and Satan is relatively a "bit-player" (Rev 11-13).