The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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Enoch111

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The doctrine of the Rapture is for the comfort of the saints. Therefore it is called “the Blessed Hope” which is connected with the glorious appearing of Christ for His saints: Looking for that Blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (Tit 2:13).

The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin “rapiemur”, which is the equivalent of “caught up together” as seen above. So to claim that the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible is simply naive and foolish. Those who believe the Word of God have no problem accepting one word for this event rather than insisting on three or four words.

Since there is a lot of tiresome nonsense being published about (a) no Rapture, (b) a Post-Tribulation Rapture when that would be impossible, (c) a Rapture where Christians do not go to Heaven, (d) a Rapture which coincides absurdly with the Second Coming of Christ, etc., every Christian should be aware that a plain study of the Bible is sufficient to establish the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture as an important and critical Christian doctrine. You may ask why it is critical, and the answer from Scripture is that it is critical because it completes the salvation of the saints, which is glorification.


1. THE REASON FOR THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
Before we even study the relevant passages, we need to ask ourselves “What exactly is the reason for the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints?” And unless we clearly understand God’s plan of salvation in Christ, we will not understand why the Resurrection/Rapture is critical.

We read in Romans 8:29,30:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

While sanctification is not mentioned here, we know from the New Testament that God’s plan of salvation includes (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification (and perfection). The opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture conveniently forget that the saints must be glorified, and receive incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies, before they enter Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture is a single event before the Second Coming of Christ. This fact is sufficient to refute the foolish notion of a Post-Tribulation Rapture.

2. CHRIST PRESENTED THE RAPTURE BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION
Enemies of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture also conveniently forget that it was not John Nelson Darby in the 19th century but the Lord Jesus Christ is 30 AD, who first presented the doctrine of the Rapture to his apostles before His crucifixion. Which means that all the attacks on Darby, Scofield, etc. are bogus. And when misguided people call this a “theory” they are making Christ out to be a liar.

JOHN 14:1-3: THE RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS TO HEAVEN
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The key phrase here is “I will come again and receive you unto myself”. While this was first addressed to the apostles, it has general application to all the saints, since the apostles died as martyrs, and Christ did not come back from Heaven in the first century to take them up to Heaven. It should be noted that when Jesus said “Let not your hearts be troubled”, He automatically disconnected the Rapture from any Tribulation period.


3. THE RESURRECTION CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM THE RAPTURE
All Christians believe that the saints will be resurrected. However, only a few understand that the Resurrection cannot be separated from the Rapture.


When a child of God dies, his or her body is interred in the grave. However, the soul and spirit go directly to Christ. But since Christ has promised to resurrect all the saints, it follows that He must bring their souls and spirits with Him at the Resurrection, so that they might receive their immortal, glorified bodies, and return to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Paul presents this to us very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed [transformed at the Resurrection/Rapture], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [at the Resurrection], and we shall be changed [at the Rapture]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

4. CHRIST COMES PERSONALLY WITH (AND FOR) THE SAINTS
As we can see here, the Resurrection/Rapture is a supernatural event which occurs in nanoseconds. All the saints receive glorious immortal and incorruptible bodies. However, what should be carefully noted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is that (a) Christ comes personally with the saints who have passed on, and for the saints who are alive at that time, (b) He comes to fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 that He will come again and receive you unto Himself, and (c) that from this point on all the saints will be with Him eternally in the heavenly city New Jerusalem.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [have died in Christ], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There are several other passages which develop the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture more fully, but these should be sufficient to prove that all the attacks against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are from Satan through mistaken, misguided, or malicious individuals.
 

David H.

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There are several other passages which develop the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture more fully, but these should be sufficient to prove that all the attacks against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are from Satan through mistaken, misguided, or malicious individuals.

Can I ask you a serious question? For the record I believe in a pre wrath rapture.
What Most people who believe in the pre-trib rapture say is that Revelation was written for Israel and points to the time of Jacob's trouble, Yet if one studies the Book of revelation it mentions Israel only twice, Both times with regard to the 144K of the 12 tribes. Also the Revelation is addressed to the 7 Churches, and there are numerous passages that allude to the rapture throughout the book, not Just Revelation 4 as most pre tribbers see it, But also Revelation 7, 10, 12, 14, etc. Thoughts?

My understanding of this is that Revelation is not a linear vision, but rather a series of overlapping visions, each discussing a different aspect of these end times, And the Only timeline that matters is the one that Jesus Gave us at the Olivet discourse (Matt. 24, Luke 21, Mark 13), Where the rapture is clearly shown after the time of the abomination of desolation, and concurrent with the same events as the sixth seal and trumpet.

To accuse someone of this being from Satan shows arrogance of ones own understanding. Not to mention the divisiveness it Brings. The Pre trib rapture allows the reader to ignore the warnings of the entire book of revelation and with it the blessings it brings us as clearly promised to those who keep the words of the prophecy Because they are said to apply to Israel. This I believe is where the pre-trib rapture falls flat on its face, though I do not call the people who believe this servants of Satan or anything like that, Just unrealistic. I Was raised in, and go to a church that teaches the pre-trib rapture, I Disagree with them and we discuss this but no one is calling the other as being of Satan. What you Believe in regards to the rapture, whether you are pre, post or mid trib or even if you are preterist, is not a test of the Spirit. There are brothers and sisters in Christ on all sides of this debate.
 
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Enoch111

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What Most people who believe in the pre-trib rapture say is that Revelation was written for Israel and points to the time of Jacob's trouble
We know from Revelation itself that the book was written for the churches (the Church) and not Israel. So the question arises as to how the time of Jacob's trouble fits into this prophecy. I believe Revelation 12 clearly shows us that believing Israel is shown as the woman who is clothed with the sun and the believing remnant of Israel is preserved in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years (vv 13 & 14). We also read that the woman is "persecuted" by Satan, and that would relate to the time of Jacob's trouble (Dan 12:1).

While the Olivet Discourse runs parallel to the opening of the first five seals, there is no Rapture in that chapter. The believing remnant of Israel is called "the elect" (who are gathered to the land of Israel by the angels, sent out after the Second Coming of Christ). For the Rapture Christ comes personally for His saints,

The primary reasons why the Rapture is before the Tribulation are (1) the Holy Spirit (and the Church) must be "taken out of the way" before the Antichrist takes control (2 Thess 2) and (2) in order for the saints to come WITH Christ at His Second Coming (Jude 1:14,15), they must not only be present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19), but must be able to come with Christ when all the saints and angels (the armies of Heaven) descend with Him (see Revelation 19).
 

Timtofly

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The Pre trib rapture allows the reader to ignore the warnings of the entire book of revelation and with it the blessings it brings us as clearly promised to those who keep the words of the prophecy Because they are said to apply to Israel. This I believe is where the pre-trib rapture falls flat on its face, though I do not call the people who believe this servants of Satan or anything like that, Just unrealistic.
Being deceived by Satan is totally not being a follower or worshiper of Satan. The point of deception is: Not Knowing.

It is not unrealistic. Jesus claims those who are first will be last, and those who are last will be first, no? God called Abraham out of the other nations to prepare a special chosen people, but not necessarily an individual nation. Abraham was the father of many nations. The point is for 2000 years between Adam and Abraham, God dealt with Nations. Then God dwelt with the Hebrews until the Cross, then the church was opened to all humanity. It was not a nation or government. It was the body of Christ permeating the whole world as the mountain cut out of the rock with no hands, that replaced all the other nations. 3 time periods, 3 types of Adam's descendants. Nations first and on earth the longest. The Hebrews second. The church coming in during the last 1990 years.

Now the church started with Abel, so the church is not dispensational. The church has had some of all humanity since Abel to the last human standing at the rapture. The point is how Revelation deals with these 3 appointed by God phenomenon. The Lamb and the Atonement as the only means of a church period. The only one who can unseal the Lamb's book of life. The 7 seals is the opening of the record that holds all those in the church, but not just the church, all of mankind. Why? It was written at the Cross, but sealed before the heavens and earth were even created. The Lamb slain from the foundation of creation. It has been sealed, not one single addition, nor one single subtraction. Not one single edit could ever be done. Only the Lamb could open the seals. Since this is the church list, the seals are simply the church judgments and come first, before any thing else can happen. The second coming and rapture can only be the 6th seal. The church is completed and presented to God before the 7th seal. No one can say God played any favorites. The church is only made up of those who trusted God by faith. It was not God's choice, it was their choice and they can never be removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is not because of wrath and escape. It is because the last were taken out of this world first. The Seals can only be for the church, but all have to go through them.

Next is the Trumpets. Trumpets have always symbolized the Hebrews. And yes, the connotation can only be that God did choose some people and He calls them sheep, and He separates them from the goats. It is not about ethnical hatred, but God loved some above all others. Has he been calling out sheep separate from the goats, since Abraham? I don't know. There is an argument raised that Peter (at Pentecost) singled out David as still dead and buried as opposed to Christ and the church already physically resurrected. If the church is complete and glorified before the opening of the 7th seal, not one thing after the 7th seal can even deal with the church. Was David in the church or just a separate chosen sheep?

The Thunders can only leave the Nations. The Flood was a Thunder event. We do not know the 7 Thunders. This should cover the wheat and tares sown throughout the Nations. Any one left after the church and the sheep are removed. Many in the church today claim to be the wheat that endures to the end. We just have no clear proof that is possible, yet some wheat will still be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. They are not the church, but will rebuild the nations during the Day of the Lord, the next Millennium.

The last group who endure are those beheaded for refusing the mark, and refusing to worship Satan. How can anything good last until the battle of Armageddon? Even the two witnesses die, and come back to life the day before Armageddon. The two witnesses can only be two literal humans. They are not millions of humans clogging up the streets of Jerusalem. Besides, the church is already glorified. She cannot die again. She is also not 2.

So what is more realistic, God showing us with seals, trumpets, and thunders exactly who God is dealing with and when? Or guessing games and no one even knows who is who? In Revelation there is a parenthetical phrase about the second coming as a warning. It is only a warning. Those same people to whom the warning is given ask God a rhetorical question at the only Second Coming.

15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.

18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of generals, the flesh of important men, the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all kinds of people, free and slave, small and great!”

15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Some claim Revelation is not in chronological order. They claim the 6th seal and the battle of Armageddon is the same event. That is why we have post trib. They put the 6th seal as happening after the 7th seal, the 6 trumpets, the 7 thunders, and last, but not least the 7th Trumpet. They want the 6th seal to happen after the 7th Trumpet stops. It seems that is the only judgment they want moved out of place.

Why is it plausible or reasonable or logical to change God's Word and move one single event from where God placed it and make it wait in line for all the other events to take place? Paul claims all will happen at the last trumpet, but Paul never includes all the events. Paul does not allow for the parables or Jesus having an earthly ministry at the Second Coming. So how can Paul trump John? Peter was also very vague on the details, but he said not to be ignorant about a Day with the Lord being as 1000 years. How can Peter trump John? Yes John uses a ton of symbolic words. So did Jesus use parables explaining the final harvest. Jesus can trump John, but why claim the parables are easy, but John's Revelation too hard to figure out? Why use that as an excuse to just make up theology and claim it is better than John's own written words? Think about it folks.

I was never taught to look for God coming down on the throne. I was taught the classic rapture. Yet God himself is coming to the final harvest. Matthew 21:33-40
33 “Now listen to another parable. There was a farmer who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower; then he rented it to tenants and left.
34 When harvest-time came, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his share of the crop.
35 But the tenants seized his servants — this one they beat up, that one they killed, another they stoned.
36 So he sent some other servants, more than the first group, and they did the same to them.
37 Finally, he sent them his son, saying, ‘My son they will respect.’
38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance!’
39 So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

The classic interpretation that Jesus gave was the transfer of the field from the Hebrews to the church. But then 1990 years has happened. Now the church has to answer how they handled the field. What did they do when God sent prophets or revivals? God has not yet returned for the final harvest. Please tell me why God and the Lamb show up after the harvest is complete and logically justify why God and the Lamb did not do the harvest themselves.

John claims the 6th happens between the 5th and 7th seals. God and the Lamb surprise the world with the Second Coming when they least expect it. Obviously many church members will not expect it either. They are waiting for an Antichrist. REALLY??? John claims the Lamb and God on the throne appear. The heavens are gone. The continents are moved back into a single continent. This event is seen and experienced by all, that is ALL alive. And it happens before the Lamb's book of life is even opened, because the 7th seal is yet to happen. Waiting until Armageddon to figure out why God came to earth seems a foolish wish or endurance. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. Not all alive at the 6th seal will be alive in Revelation 16 and 19, but they all will be the last of the tares, last of the goats, and even those who claimed Lord Lord, "did we not do in your name?". The last of Adam's descendants to face the appointment of Death, and they will have to wait 1000 years to face their judgment.
 

Dave M

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The doctrine of the Rapture is for the comfort of the saints. Therefore it is called “the Blessed Hope” which is connected with the glorious appearing of Christ for His saints: Looking for that Blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (Tit 2:13).

seems to me your placing your hope more on the timing of the rapture,, then what is really important. Because every Beleivers hope is in Jesus and Jesus alone and should not be on the timing of the rapture IMO with all due respect I say this
 

Timtofly

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While the Olivet Discourse runs parallel to the opening of the first five seals, there is no Rapture in that chapter. The believing remnant of Israel is called "the elect" (who are gathered to the land of Israel by the angels, sent out after the Second Coming of Christ). For the Rapture Christ comes personally for His saints,
The symbolism of angels is the act of death. One thing the church held to is God's use of angels to transfer the soul from one body to the next body. You will have to put up verses to prove otherwise. Where the souls of those not in the church and not glorified stay, for the 5 years during the harvest and Satan's 42 months, is not clear. That they are resurrected in Revelation 20:4 should be clearly understood. Matthew stating that angels gather those from Paradise can only be the rapture event. This is not a death event. This is the glorification of the church and the presentation of the church to God on the throne. It happens in clear view of all on earth. Thus the rhetorical question in Revelation 6:12-17

12 "Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Paul gives us the rapture view looking down from heaven's advantage point..

John gives us the rapture view from those left behind looking up at God on the throne from earth's disadvantage point...
 

Keraz

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I believe Revelation 12 clearly shows us that believing Israel is shown as the woman who is clothed with the sun and the believing remnant of Israel is preserved in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years (vv 13 & 14)
An easily disproven belief.
Revelation 12:6-17 is about the Church and Christians. We ARE the literal 'woman', ethnic Israel, verses 1-5, was the spiritual progenitor of Jesus, the man child; our Lord and Savior. Proved by verse 17.. we have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 

Naomi25

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The doctrine of the Rapture is for the comfort of the saints. Therefore it is called “the Blessed Hope” which is connected with the glorious appearing of Christ for His saints: Looking for that Blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (Tit 2:13).

The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin “rapiemur”, which is the equivalent of “caught up together” as seen above. So to claim that the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible is simply naive and foolish. Those who believe the Word of God have no problem accepting one word for this event rather than insisting on three or four words.

Since there is a lot of tiresome nonsense being published about (a) no Rapture, (b) a Post-Tribulation Rapture when that would be impossible, (c) a Rapture where Christians do not go to Heaven, (d) a Rapture which coincides absurdly with the Second Coming of Christ, etc., every Christian should be aware that a plain study of the Bible is sufficient to establish the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture as an important and critical Christian doctrine. You may ask why it is critical, and the answer from Scripture is that it is critical because it completes the salvation of the saints, which is glorification.

I agree that the Rapture is absolutely the blessed hope, and that without a doubt scripture teaches it.
However, what you claim to be “tiresome nonsense”, would seem to me to be issues you have not proven with any sort of authority to be tossing around such epithets.
I, personally, would ask you to start with the idea the Rapture and second coming must be separate. I see no such thing in scripture, and apart from the usual “Christ come for his church and then with it” mantra, I have not yet been given adequate scriptural evidence that proves there is a distinction between these two comings.
Please address that
.
 
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Davy

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The doctrine of the Rapture is for the comfort of the saints. Therefore it is called “the Blessed Hope” which is connected with the glorious appearing of Christ for His saints: Looking for that Blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (Tit 2:13).

The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin “rapiemur”, which is the equivalent of “caught up together” as seen above. So to claim that the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible is simply naive and foolish. Those who believe the Word of God have no problem accepting one word for this event rather than insisting on three or four words.

Since there is a lot of tiresome nonsense being published about (a) no Rapture, (b) a Post-Tribulation Rapture when that would be impossible, (c) a Rapture where Christians do not go to Heaven, (d) a Rapture which coincides absurdly with the Second Coming of Christ, etc., every Christian should be aware that a plain study of the Bible is sufficient to establish the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture as an important and critical Christian doctrine. You may ask why it is critical, and the answer from Scripture is that it is critical because it completes the salvation of the saints, which is glorification.
....

Pretty much baloney, since Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 clearly reveals that Jesus comes to gather the saints AFTER... the great tribulation He warned of.

And it's also strange how the false Pre-trib Rapture theory pulls from Christ's Olivet discourse about the day of His 2nd coming, and the "abomination of desolation" and the "great tribulation", yet at the same time they falsely teach those Signs Jesus gave there in His Olivet discourse isn't meant for His Church, even though He was speaking directly to the 'foundation' of His Church!

Anytime men have to come up with some racket to try and explain their theories, and thus turn Scripture upside down, you know that's an example of men's doctrine, and not God's Word. Can't get any greater upside down theory than man's false doctrine that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation when Jesus was clear that His coming to gather the saints is AFTER... the tribulation.
 

Davy

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seems to me your placing your hope more on the timing of the rapture,, then what is really important. Because every Beleivers hope is in Jesus and Jesus alone and should not be on the timing of the rapture IMO with all due respect I say this

The 'timing' of our Lord Jesus' return as written is actually very... important.

God in Ezekiel 13 showed long ago that the pre-trib rapture idea would be a trap doctrine for the end of days among His people.

The pre-trib rapture theory goes directly opposite to the timing Jesus showed when He comes in the clouds to gather His Church, per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. The pre-trib rapturists instead say that scripture is meant only for Jews, and not for the Church. Yet Jesus was speaking to the foundation of His Church while upon the Mount of Olives, and He was giving the main Signs of the Book of Revelation. This is why the Seals of Rev.6 parallels the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

So why is the 'timing' so important? It's because the Signs our Lord Jesus gave His Church for the end of this world leading up to His return involves the coming of a false-Messiah that is to work great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth to fool the majority into believing he is God. That was what Lord Jesus was warning about in the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture, which is actually about a singular pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem for the end, that if it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

Welcome to the battle at the end of this world. Will you 'wait' for our true Lord Jesus' coming after that false one, or will you believe on that false one who will mimic our true Lord Jesus Christ? So you see, the proper timing of Christ's return per God's written Word is most important for those in Christ at the end.
 

Timtofly

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Can't get any greater upside down theory than man's false doctrine that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation when Jesus was clear that His coming to gather the saints is AFTER... the tribulation
Do you have a verse that says the rapture happens at the end of the battle of Armageddon? Or do you twist Scripture to get that point?
 

David H.

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Some claim Revelation is not in chronological order. They claim the 6th seal and the battle of Armageddon is the same event. That is why we have post trib. They put the 6th seal as happening after the 7th seal, the 6 trumpets, the 7 thunders, and last, but not least the 7th Trumpet. They want the 6th seal to happen after the 7th Trumpet stops. It seems that is the only judgment they want moved out of place.

Revelation has a chronological order, but it is not linear, there is overlap. The way I understand it, there is a time of tribulation, and a time of Wrath, and that dividing line is when there is no more repentance found in mankind which is after the sixth trumpet. From that point on there is no reason for the saints to remain on earth and are raptured, as is indicated in rev. 10, and 11 with the death of the two witnesses and their subsequent removal. The wrath of God begins at Rev. 11:18.

So What I am saying is that each of the sections of revelation are diverse visions all with a different start point and leading to the same end,Like one of those airplane disaster movies from the 70's, each shows a different aspect in the end time resolution. This is why you have rapture language found in both Rev. 6-7, as well as 10-11, and 14. Most scholars see some of these "jump backs" in time and note them as Parenthetical, such as Rev. 12:1-5. But the way I see this is that each vision Jumps back to a certain time, so the seals begin when Jesus ascends to heaven and seen as worthy to open the seals. The first five having been opened at that first Pentecost. Then there is the mystery of the church age, where that Number of Martyrs to be fulfilled by the fifth seal occurs. Which ushers in the sixth seal, which, as you say is a judgment of the church.
But from there, we Jumpback in time to the first trumpet. Each of the sevens are a thunder and happen simultaneously, and their language is related to the day of the LORD. This is why you can still see the saints on earth in Rev. 14, but no farther than that, and which is why the beast of Rev. 17 is diverse from the Beast of Rev. 13. (See my post on this).

Instead of a linear timeline, revelation is like a painting being painted before the eyes of John, the witness recording it down, So If you can picture that guy on PBS who makes "happy accidents" first you paint the background, then gradually add more and more details till the final image is formed and that final image has its own timeline, like a depiction of a great battle on a building to commemorate the victory. It is a 3 dimensional timeline with layers. All this leads me to a mid trib, pre-wrath rapture. Israel itself is dealt with very little in revelation, only being mentioned in regards to the 144K in Those two passages (Rev. 7, and 14) which for me align with one another, despite seven chapters of separation between these mentions. Israel will drink of the cup of the wrath of God till they are drunk, and then the LORD will miraculously spare them, thus fulfilling Zech. 12:10ff.
 

Timtofly

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Revelation has a chronological order, but it is not linear, there is overlap. The way I understand it, there is a time of tribulation, and a time of Wrath, and that dividing line is when there is no more repentance found in mankind which is after the sixth trumpet. From that point on there is no reason for the saints to remain on earth and are raptured, as is indicated in rev. 10, and 11 with the death of the two witnesses and their subsequent removal. The wrath of God begins at Rev. 11:18.

So What I am saying is that each of the sections of revelation are diverse visions all with a different start point and leading to the same end,Like one of those airplane disaster movies from the 70's, each shows a different aspect in the end time resolution. This is why you have rapture language found in both Rev. 6-7, as well as 10-11, and 14. Most scholars see some of these "jump backs" in time and note them as Parenthetical, such as Rev. 12:1-5. But the way I see this is that each vision Jumps back to a certain time, so the seals begin when Jesus ascends to heaven and seen as worthy to open the seals. The first five having been opened at that first Pentecost. Then there is the mystery of the church age, where that Number of Martyrs to be fulfilled by the fifth seal occurs. Which ushers in the sixth seal, which, as you say is a judgment of the church.
But from there, we Jumpback in time to the first trumpet. Each of the sevens are a thunder and happen simultaneously, and their language is related to the day of the LORD. This is why you can still see the saints on earth in Rev. 14, but no farther than that, and which is why the beast of Rev. 17 is diverse from the Beast of Rev. 13. (See my post on this).

Instead of a linear timeline, revelation is like a painting being painted before the eyes of John, the witness recording it down, So If you can picture that guy on PBS who makes "happy accidents" first you paint the background, then gradually add more and more details till the final image is formed and that final image has its own timeline, like a depiction of a great battle on a building to commemorate the victory. It is a 3 dimensional timeline with layers. All this leads me to a mid trib, pre-wrath rapture. Israel itself is dealt with very little in revelation, only being mentioned in regards to the 144K in Those two passages (Rev. 7, and 14) which for me align with one another, despite seven chapters of separation between these mentions. Israel will drink of the cup of the wrath of God till they are drunk, and then the LORD will miraculously spare them, thus fulfilling Zech. 12:10ff.
I would agree in part. Revelation is the end of several points. Adam's 6000 year punishment. The ministry of the church. The end of Israel as forsaken. The end of Nations fighting against Nation.

I also see two alternative endings: The 7th Trumpet and then chapter 14.

The classical with the week of celebration (7th Trumpet) being split in half. On Wednesday, Satan is given 42 months, and only the 2 witnesses are left in Jerusalem.

Chapter 14 is the end of a full week without interruption.

Chapters 11, 13, 15, and 16 with the vials showing the consequences of the 42 months, and the last 3.5 days are when the vials happen and the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The one hour of the ten nations joining with Satan is the battle of Armageddon on a Sunday from 5pm to 6pm. Monday starts Revelation 20.

Chapters 17, 18, and 19 show the world power and the harlot church being ended in that final hour at Armageddon.

The Trumpets 1-6 sound for the separation of goats and sheep in present day Israel. The Thunders is the harvest of the wheat and the tares of the Nations themselves. The 7th Trumpet sounds from a Sunday to the end of the following Sunday. Even during the 42 months if the week is split.

This week being the end of all plans of God. Similar to the Palm Sunday week that separated the OT from the NT. But there is also the week long assault on Jericho that separated the Nations from the chosen people coming out of Egypt. I believe it started on a Sunday because nothing was done on the Sabbath. Sunday to Friday they march once each day. Then after the Sabbath, they marched 7 times on Sunday. And the sound of the Trumpets marked the fall of the Nations and the start of Israel as a Nation. That is why we see Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders. The last in, the first out. The church was the last people God worked through. They leave. The land of Israel, who represented the majority of the OT leave, and the Nations who have been on earth from Adam's fall, through the Flood, up until Abraham was called out, yet extended for 600 years because of Hagar and Ishmael, not always obedient, judged the last. Satan gets the leftovers. Revelation only covers a period of 7 years. Only 3.5 if you take away the last 42 months. How can the chronology be that hard to follow?
 

David H.

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How can the chronology be that hard to follow?

I Believe the process of birth is the simplicity of the end times chronology. Birth pangs lead to labor and delivery lead to Joy after sorrow.
So Tribulation which is the church age, Great tribulation, which is an acceleration under the Antichrist of all those birth pangs, followed by the birth, and sorrow turning to Joy. When You see this, Revelation chronology simplifies. This is the outline given by Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

Many a scholar has spent their entire life coming up with complex chronologies that take pages to explain, and need a PHD to understand, But in reality it is as simple as Birth, and everyone is familiar with that. The wicked have to worry about the wrath of God, But for the faithful, sorrow turns to Joy in our redemption.

God Bless.
 

Bobby Jo

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To All,

It seems to me that sometimes Church Doctrines drives our Scriptures, rather than the other way around. And so when we have a "Doctrinal Truth", we skew Scripture to justify it. But if Scripture (rather than the Doctrine) is the basis, then we should find:

1. The DEAD must rise before the LIVING.
2. The DEAD are not raised until AFTER the Millennial Kingdom. (Rev. 20)
3. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom Jesus and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up to be with the LORD forever in the air in the New Jerusalem.​

But more importantly, if people ignore Lke 22:36, because they have an "escape plan", -- what happens WHEN (not "if") it FAILS? Will they be given FREE SHOWERS, or will they be able to endure and survive until Jesus returns?

And I won't presume to decide for anyone else, but I'm working to provide for my family during those days when we FIRST must leave the cities (Rev. 18:4); can't buy or sell; will endure a Global Thermonuclear War; and then see Jesus Return! :)


So make your decisions, but as the "old Knight" suggested in the movie: Choose Wisely, not Poorly.
Bobby Jo
 
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David H.

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or will they be able to endure and survive until Jesus returns?

I Trust in the Word of God, and the Providence and Promises of God...

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. (Luke 21:12-19)
 

David H.

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How can the chronology be that hard to follow?
There is a perfect example of this overly complex end time chronology on this forum that was just posted which shows exactly what the Human mind "carnality" is capable of doing with the simplicity of revelation, I Hope you caught that one with all its charts and nonsense.
 

Bobby Jo

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I Trust in the Word of God, and the Providence and Promises of God...
Yep, except for obeying Lke 22:36, which CHANGED the conventions from when Jesus was on earth, to when HE would no longer be on earth where HE gave NEW GUIDANCE.

I hope you don't suffer any consequences from ignoring the NEW GUIDANCE!
Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

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I Trust in the Word of God, and the Providence and Promises of God...
(Luke 21:12-19)

Just make sure that the audience you cite is the audience you are. Specifically, I'd point to:

2 Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, ...

... and given Peter in the courtyard where his "self-preservation" overwhelmed his FAITH. And so Lke 22:36 directs our "preservation" so that our FAITH can fully stand in the face of adversity, lest we "fall away".


FAITH without WORKS is dead, -- so don't just "Trust", but also put your hands to work as Jesus directed in verse 36.
Bobby Jo
 

David H.

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FAITH without WORKS is dead, -- so don't just "Trust", but also put your hands to work as Jesus directed in verse 36.
Your whole faith rests on one verse, Which is ripped out of context to justify your millitancy and political points, That is not who Jesus is, and it shows you truly do not Know Him.