THE QUESTION NO ONE WANTS TO ASK

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
[SIZE=11.5pt]For the last 10 years, I have been studying church history. Apart from my study of the New Testament, I must have read at least 60 books on the subject. My latest journey is the 8 volume “History of the Christian Church” by Philip Schaff.

I am rather pleased with this purchase as it normally sells for $200 and I paid $50. A big thanks to ChristianBook in the USA.

One of my purchases was tapes called “Pastors in Crisis” which talks about all the sorts of problems that pastors in the USA experience. There were cases cited of pastors who gave up because of the success syndrome. They were employed to get results and when they didn’t they were sacked or resigned.

This does not surprise me as I went though a website that advertised Christian jobs. There were 263 adverts for pastors. Apart from three, the qualifications required were experience, a degree and the ability to make things happen. Only three mentioned they wanted someone who had a serious prayer life.

In one book, I read that on average, 1,600 USA pastors resign or are sacked each month. In my country there are over 10,000 ex pastors who gave up because of burnout or unrealistic expectations.

One other thing the tapes mentioned was the fact that these situations were sad because these men were called by God to do a special ministry.

I am not convinced however as I cannot see God approving of something contrary to his word. My own feeling is and it has been confirmed by other writers that probably at least 50% of the pastors out there should never be in ministry.

The reason they are, is that they are fuelled by rejection so they need to be needed which means their so called “calling” is nothing more than to cover up a dysfunction without having to face it.

If you are in ministry because of rejection, everything is filtered through it so you are unable to see reality. A protective mechanism builds a wall to stop you being hurt so you cannot see the wood for the trees as they say.

Apart from the forgoing, I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament Church (NTC) where they hired a pastor from outside the church to run it. Leadership in the NTC was firstly apostles and prophets and later resident Elders who were chosen from within the fellowship. Not once does it say a pastor is in charge.

What this tells me is that when you ignore the obvious and impose a man made system on a spiritually devised and God given structure, you are asking for trouble because you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I believe the reasons I have stated are the reasons why the current church leadership model is a killing ground for professional pastors. It doesn’t work because it was never intended to.

The question no one wants to ask is “why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.”

There can only be one answer to this and that is that man has too much invested in their way of doing things and to do otherwise would mean a loss of authority, power and prestige because doing it God’s way would mean that he gets all the glory, not man.

Man’s sinful nature does not want that to happen.
[/SIZE]
 
  • Like
Reactions: KingJ

afaithfulone4u

New Member
Dec 7, 2012
1,028
32
0
California
First of all, if God be for you, then who can be against you? When God calls one to Pasture His Sheep then it will not be overthrown unless God allows it. So, while it is not in man's hands to reject a Pastor, it happens BY the hand of man, but the decision is God's. Maybe God has another position in His house of many mansions for someone and they just need to find out where that is. Where ever it is.. do it as if doing it FOR the Lord because you are! All should be working for the same goal of serving for the good and perfecting of the saints getting them ready for use in the kingdom of God, as the fish are caught and gathered in for a good cleaning before they hit that frying pan of trials and tribulations that bring about holiness. We are all of one body, but each member is called for the talents that God has planted in them to do, the important job that only THEY can do where He needs you most.
Eph 4:11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
KJV

1 Cor 12:27-31
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
KJV

Rom 8:30-31
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
KJV
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

Another thing that you must keep in mind is that Satan has his ministers standing in front of the Woman(in some pulpits) and is trying to destroy the birth of the body of Christ that is coming into the fullness(full term birth) of Christ. We must keep connected to our Head, not the man who may be able to be deceived.
Rev 12:4-6
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV
 

Prentis

New Member
May 25, 2011
2,047
92
0
31
Montreal, Qc
Thanks for sharing... The problem around the current leadership as it is set up in the churches is, like you say, on so many different levels. On the one hand the organizations are driven by carnal results, and based on attendance and tithe, which would either drive a true man of God away or make him compromise on the purpose of his calling. On the other hand, many who are in ministry, both succesfull or who have left, are often there for all the wrong reasons.

We have built a whole system based on man's ways and not on God's... Good op.

Have you ever read 'Ten shekels and a shirt'? Very much touches the heart of this issue.

http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml
 

AndyBern

Member
Jun 26, 2012
67
9
8
Ten Shekels is an excellent message to listen to (or read) over and over and let sink in. It has been very influential in my life as a reminder to test my motives, thoughts, words, and actions.

God's calling is essential for someone to become a pastor. Everything else must hinge on that. Too many people equate preaching ability with pastoral ability, but they are not the same. Someone with God's calling to be a pastor will have a heart for the flock (like the Good Shepherd) and will seek to bring the church closer to Christ - even if his preaching ability is somewhat lacking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
One question I would love to ask God, is how many in ministry are actually called to be there by Him in the first place, I would not be suprised if He said less tha 10%.

in all his love
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
afaithfulone4u said:
When God calls one to Pasture His Sheep then it will not be overthrown unless God allows it.

I am at a loss to know why God only calls pastors today

Eph 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

If you need five ministries to perfect the saints, why do we ignore four of them?

1 Cor 12:27-31
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

No mention of pastors. I wonder why?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Preaching the gospel...to the unbeliever, not the believer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Prentis said:
Have you ever read 'Ten shekels and a shirt'? Very much touches the heart of this issue.

http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml
No, I haven't but it sounds as though I should so I will.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
IMO, to a very large degree, pastoring has become a professional occupation instead of a calling.
I know this is anecdotal, but very informative nonetheless.

A pastor of a church was approached about doing something different as a means to advance the church. His eventual reply was that the church (denomination) pays his wages and his retirement benefits so he couldn't do anything that would rock the boat.
mjrhealth said:
One question I would love to ask God, is how many in ministry are actually called to be there by Him in the first place, I would not be suprised if He said less tha 10%.

in all his love
Agreed. Most are called by the church or denomination because they say and do the right thing (in their eyes).
AndyBern said:
God's calling is essential for someone to become a pastor.
Has God stopped calling, apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers?
Here is another thought for consideration. For someone to be billed as "Pastor Jones" or pastor Smith" is an insult to everyone else in the congregation because it sets him apart which he is not.

If a church wants a notice board outside their building it should not read "Minister: Pastor Jones." It should read "Minister: The Congregation."

Why do I say this? Because the only priesthood recognised in the New Testament is the priesthood of all believers therefore, every believer is a priest and minister. The reason they are not is due to the fact that we hire professionals who do most of the ministry and the rest are just a cheer squad.

Frank Viola in his book "Pagan Christianity" says that the biggest damper on the priesthood of all believers is the priesthood of "paid professionals."
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2011
2,650
137
63
72
Manitoba Canada
I think too many Christians put too much emphasis on having a "great pastor" , as though that in itself makes them "better Christians"

I once attended a church who had such a popular leader it almost amounted to "pastor worship"

A couple of years later he got caught having an affair with his secretary and he moved away , the attendance dropped in half and the church almost ended up closing.

I always felt there was something wrong when the congregation is too focused on the leader , yet a popular pastor can also lead a lot of people in the right direction so it is hard to say what is best.

Interesting topic marksman , thank you.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
unfortunitely, the pastor is always damned by some faction of the church - if he is too loving, he is viewed by some as passive and not committed to discipline. if he is boundaried regarding his personal life and scedules time to serve others, he is viewed by some as not committed to his congregation. if he loves the sinner and hates the sin, he is accused of accepting the sin by some and judgmental by others. Some members expect performance, others expect biblical teaching and others want recognition and power for themselves. ministry is not easy and is not a place for tyrants or people pleasers. only people who know and experience and refuel in God's love can see above all the political jockeying within their ministeries. one thing miinistries have in common and in abundance; critics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dragonfly

Suhar

New Member
Mar 28, 2013
436
18
0
Western WA
[SIZE=11.5pt]In one book, I read that on average, 1,600 USA pastors resign or are sacked each month. In my country there are over 10,000 ex pastors who gave up because of burnout or unrealistic expectations. [/SIZE]



[SIZE=medium]Sounds like pastors need a union! The tentmakers union.[/SIZE]
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Suhar said:
Sounds like pastors need a union! The tentmakers union.
A good bit of Aussie humour Suhar. Although I get the feeling that some of them would not be satisfied with tents.
Arnie Manitoba said:
I think too many Christians put too much emphasis on having a "great pastor" , as though that in itself makes them "better Christians"

I once attended a church who had such a popular leader it almost amounted to "pastor worship"
So right Arnie. I have to admit that I get a bit sick in the stomach when I visit a church and am asked "would you like to meet Pastor Harry Up (himself)?"

My immediate response is "No, but I would like to meet Harry."

And when a church cannot refer to the pastor unless he is called Pastor along this and Pastor along that even in conversation. I often wonder if the title is a shield to stop people finding out what he is really like as they only know him in the religious context.

I think it is a bit pretentious on his part because the leaders in industry that are overseeing billions in trade and thousands of staff are not introduced as CEO Jones. Usually it is Harry Jones the CEO of Mighty Works and if you happen to have a conversation with him, it is not normal to address him as CEO Jones all the time. It is usually Mr. Jones or simply Harry.

They know who they are so they do not need to have it confirmed all the time by being addressed as CEO Jones. When I was on the management team of a multi million dollar company, everyone addressed me by my Christian name from the CEO down to the storeman.
 

horsecamp

New Member
Feb 1, 2008
765
23
0
exactly .. The new testament part of the bible is not followed ..a christian has no right to claim he is a pastor with out following what the bible teaches on how pastors must be beyond reproach be male and be well trained also very important is he must receive a call from a existing christian congregation to be a pastor !

now days we have people claiming God called them to be pastor not through a christian congregation he simply called them in a old testament sort of way .. well thats NOT true God would not say differently from His new testament scripture ..

its now the era of Gods new testament ! we are to follow that!

lets remind our pastors God wants them to all ways be above reproach . How by calling them pastor so and so and by introducing them by the name pastor .. God holds them more accountable because they are pastors ..
they are not just one of the guys ..Jesus has let us know it will be worse in hell for some than others .. a former christian pastor in hell
because he fell from faith will not be any thing the other in hell would wish for.. Jesus has let us know hell will be worse for some than others.
 

musterion

New Member
Aug 4, 2013
215
5
0
marksman said:
[SIZE=11.5pt]There can only be one answer to this and that is that man has too much invested in their way of doing things and to do otherwise would mean a loss of authority, power and prestige because doing it God’s way would mean that he gets all the glory, not man. [/SIZE]
I can tell you would find Frank Viola's PAGAN CHRISTIANITY an interesting read. I cannot vouch for some other things he's written and taught - and oppose a good deal of it - but Viola details exactly why modern pastoral ministry (and a good deal of other modern "Christian" things) look the way they do today. I highly recommend this book, if nothing else he's written.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
musterion said:
I can tell you would find Frank Viola's PAGAN CHRISTIANITY an interesting read. I cannot vouch for some other things he's written and taught - and oppose a good deal of it - but Viola details exactly why modern pastoral ministry (and a good deal of other modern "Christian" things) look the way they do today. I highly recommend this book, if nothing else he's written.
Yes it is a great read and......beautiful kids musterion. The back one looks like my granddaughter Zoe and they look about the same age.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ugh! I really don't know what to say! It is true that not everyone is called of God to preach. But if you find one that is, support him both in word and with the bucks! He has to eat too, and it's better that he can rely on the offering to feed himself and focus on the Word.

If a minister "to be" fails, I hope he has enough strength to realize that it wasn't his callling, and he rejoins us "sheep".
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
FHII said:
Ugh! I really don't know what to say! It is true that not everyone is called of God to preach. But if you find one that is, support him both in word and with the bucks! He has to eat too, and it's better that he can rely on the offering to feed himself and focus on the Word.
And where does it say all this in scripture? As I see it offerings in scripture were for the purpose of supporting Apostles whilst they were travelling, the poor and the needy and widows that devoted themselves to prayer so they could not earn an income.

Not ONCE does it say they are to be used to pay staff; preachers; used for buildings or pastors.

It sounds like to me that you are making scripture support your experience rather than making your experience support scripture.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, if you do not want anything, but preaching at church, fire the rest of the staff and start canceling programs.