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The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by justaname, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It is eschatological, very much so. Here's the Living Bible version (verses 9 & 20 are not numbered in my software).


    2 Cor 11:1-27
    11:1 I hope you will be patient with me as I keep on talking like a fool. Do bear with me and let me say what is on my heart.
    2 I am anxious for you with the deep concern of God himself-anxious that your love should be for Christ alone, just as a pure maiden saves her love for one man only, for the one who will be her husband.
    3 But I am frightened, fearing that in some way you will be led away from your pure and simple devotion to our Lord, just as Eve was deceived by Satan in the Garden of Eden.

    What end time subject is Paul covering there? The idea of falling away from Christ to another, being deceived by the devil like how Eve was. Eschatology - great apostasy of 2 Thess.2; staying a 'chaste virgin' (KJV) remaining in Christ waiting for His coming; false prophets in the last days.


    4 You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.
    5 Yet I don't feel that these marvelous "messengers from God," as they call themselves, are any better than I am.

    Even the LIving Bible version kept that idea of the "another Jesus", and receiving of "a different spirit" than The Holy Spirit. Today, how is that 'different way to be saved' being manifested? What's behind the orthodox Jews' plan to build another temple in Jerusalem for the last days? Paul makes it fairly plain who those "marvelous 'messengers from God'" supposedly are later on in this chapter. That's who Paul is pointing to with the preaching of another gospel, and the another Jesus.


    6 If I am a poor speaker, at least I know what I am talking about, as I think you realize by now, for we have proved it again and again.
    7 Did I do wrong and cheapen myself and make you look down on me because I preached God's Good News to you without charging you anything?
    8 Instead I "robbed" other churches by taking what they sent me and using it up while I was with you so that I could serve you without cost. And when that was gone and I was getting hungry, I still didn't ask you for anything, for the Christians from Macedonia brought me another gift. I have never yet asked you for one cent, and I never will.
    10 I promise this with every ounce of truth I possess-that I will tell everyone in Greece about it!
    11 Why? Because I don't love you? God knows I do.
    12 But I will do it to cut out the ground from under the feet of those who boast that they are doing God's work in just the same way we are.

    Paul reveals already there was a problem with hirelings existing in that time, their preaching for money. Our Lord Jesus warned us about those in John 10.

    13 God never sent those men at all; they are "phonies" who have fooled you into thinking they are Christ's apostles.
    14 Yet I am not surprised! Satan can change himself into an angel of light,
    15 so it is no wonder his servants can do it too, and seem like godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

    Paul is making a direct accusation against those so-called "messengers from God" he mentioned earlier, how God did not... send them, and that they are phonies posing as Christ's apostles. He even labels those as Satan's own servants there, while they only seem... like godly ministers. Paul even assigns wickedness to what they're doing. And again, what specifically did he say earlier they were doing?

    They preach 'another Jesus', and the accepting of 'a different spirit', and a different way to be saved, per verses 4 & 5. Since they represent Satan's servants like Paul says, then who do you think their 'another Jesus' really is? Can't just throw out Christ's warnings in Matt.24 and Mark 13 about a coming pseudo-Christ, nor Paul again in 2 Thess.2 about the coming of a false one which our Lord Jesus warned of with the 'dragon' in Revelation.


    16 Again I plead, don't think that I have lost my wits to talk like this; but even if you do, listen to me anyway-a witless man, a fool-while I also boast a little as they do.
    17 Such bragging isn't something the Lord commanded me to do, for I am acting like a brainless fool.
    18 Yet those other men keep telling you how wonderful they are, so here I go:

    Paul asks them to bear with him about his boasting in the next passages. Those false prophets boast, so he's going to do it too.


    19(You think you are so wise-yet you listen gladly to those fools; you don't mind at all when they make you their slaves and take everything you have, and take advantage of you, and put on airs, and slap you in the face.
    21 I'm ashamed to say that I'm not strong and daring like that!
    But whatever they can boast about-I'm talking like a fool again-I can boast about it, too.)

    Is that still happening in many Churches today? Yes. A lot of 'airs' going on which is nothing but hot air from self-proclaiming messengers which God did not send.


    22 They brag that they are Hebrews, do they? Well, so am I. And they say that they are Israelites, God's chosen people? So am I. And they are descendants of Abraham? Well, I am too.
    23 They say they serve Christ? But I have served him far more! (Have I gone mad to boast like this?) I have worked harder, been put in jail more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again and again.
    24 Five different times the Jews gave me their terrible thirty-nine lashes.

    Is there any question now as to who Paul was speaking about, i.e., false Jews, false brethren? Might that explain why a lot of so-called Christian ministers exist proclaiming their support today along with orthodox un-believing Jews towards building another temple in Jerusalem? Are those false ministers telling you to get ready to flock to Jerusalem to be saved? (Jesus said to get out, and for those in the countries to not go to Jerusalem when the day of vengenace comes - Luke 21). When that temple is built, and a false one sits there in it, and they proclaim him as God, will you believe it?
     
  2. Lively Stone

    Lively Stone New Member

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    It is not necessarily eschatological. That is a particular spin you desire to put on it. It can be applied, but that is not how Paul was speaking. Paul was warning the members of the church in Corinth and admonishing them to remain true in their faith walk, and wise, not following after false teachers, and false Christs and false gospels....much the same we must beware now, over 2000 years hence. False teachers have been a problem since the beginning and will continue to be until Jesus comes again.
     
  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I agree false prophets and false teachers will continue to be a problem to the end of this world, Paul's and Peter's warnings especially mark that for the very end though, and they well warned us to take heed. In the 2 Cor.11 Scripture though, he is specifically marking a particular coming false one...


    I prefer the KJV of that Scripture...

    2 Cor 11:2-4
    2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Exactly what is that idea Paul says that we are "espoused" to "one Husband" (Christ)? He's pulling that from Isaiah 54 about the blessed are the barren metaphor, with our Maker as our True Husband (spiritually). That remaining "a chaste virgin" spiritual idea is also part of that, for it's about remaining faithful to Christ all the way up to the time of His coming.

    Per that spiritual metaphor Paul is using, what's the opposite of remaining "a chaste virgin" waiting on our True Husband Christ Jesus? The opposite is falling away in false worship to... another. What another?


    3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
    (KJV)

    There it is, that another being the "another Jesus", a false husband, the instead of Christ.

    Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles pulled many of these Old Testament metaphors together about our remaing spiritual virgins waiting on Christ Jesus, and not falling away to worship another in His place. That's what our Lord's parable of the ten virgins was pointing to; it's what Paul was pointing to here; it's also what Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5 about the deceived who sleep in the night, and travail as a woman with child.

    1Thes 5:2-3
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    (KJV)


    Our Lord Jesus on the way to be crucified also pointed to that metaphor, turning to those who wept for Him...

    Luke 23:27-30
    27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
    28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
    29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
    30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
    (KJV)


    What in the world was He talking about? He was quoting directly from Isaiah 54, the same chapter Paul was pulling from in the 2 Cor.11 Scripture...

    Isa 54:1-10
    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
    3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
    4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
    5 For thy Maker is thine Husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called.
    6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
    7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
    8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
    9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto Me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
    10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
    (KJV)


    It's not my fault that those you've listened to have not taught you to study the Old Testament prophets about that. Nor is it my fault they probably don't have a clue about those metaphors our LORD gave. Yet they are written.
     
  4. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Nobody told me to go to Jerusalem to be saved. If I am here to see the completed temple, and a false on sits there, I will still have my faith in Jesus.

    How does any of this fit in with me believing in a rapture of the church before God's wrath come to the planet?
     
  5. Lively Stone

    Lively Stone New Member

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    I have had very excellent teachers of the word of God all my life, people who live exemplary and non-compromising lives for Jesus Christ, not one being unbalanced in their presentation of anything biblical. I thank God for the blessing of having Spirit-filled and Spirit-led teachers, leaders, pastors, friends and parents who have taught and influenced me concerning the truth of the word. So, there you go---something you didn't know, and assumed about errantly---your fault.
     
  6. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The consolation is, that now, at least you're aware of the idea of a false one coming to Jerusalem first, prior to our Lord Jesus' return to gather us.


    II Th 2:8-10
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    (KJV)

    Use your common sense in the above verse in bold. Does "that Wicked" have to be here on earth first in order for our Lord Jesus to come and destroy him with the Spirit of His mouth and the brightness of His coming?

    Did you know that event of Christ's destroying him with the Spirit of His mouth is about the following?


    Rev 19:13-19
    13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
    (KJV)
     
  7. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I honestly commend you for your zealous concern so we will not be deceived. Please for the future though, you do not have to result to accusations against those who disagree or might have a different viewpoint. :) You have made some valid points and I receive them in grace, I pray you may be able to do the same with mine. Let us learn from each other as iron sharpens iron. You have deep insight on the character of the antichrist and I will be referring to these postings in my future studies.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I respect you as a brother in Christ Jesus. But those behind the pre-trib rapture doctrine, I could never have respect for, and those are really the ones that are going to be beaten with many stripes when our Lord Jesus returns (Luke 12:45-48). (For you non-believers out there, that beaten with stripes idea is symbolic of great shame when Christ appears again, so don't think it's about being literally beaten by our Lord Jesus).
     
  9. Lively Stone

    Lively Stone New Member

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    Nonsense.
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Scripture as written should not make you angry, not if you truly seek God's Truth.
     
  11. Lively Stone

    Lively Stone New Member

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    Scripture affirms. People condemn. That is what you are doing, mate.
     
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I have condemned no one. Christ Jesus only has Authority to do that, but each one of us can condemn 'ourself' by not listening to Him and following His Word as written. All is measured by His Word.
     
  13. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Just a little question: what's the difference between 'condemning us' and 'pointing out that we are condemning ourselves'? Isn't that kind of the same thing, when you get right done to it...only, your absolving yourself of your words, and putting the stupid on us?
    Either way you are being the arbiter of condemnation and judgement. As you say, that's something only Christ should do.

    Look, it's fairly simple. The Bible is inerrant...it can't be wrong. But the moment people read it and form ideas based on what they think it says, it becomes liable to fallacy. If you are honest, all your end time ideas, are just that. Yes, you think you've been honest to a fault in regards to what scripture says. Yes, you think you are reading everything in a light of understanding, yes you think you've put the picture together based entirely on what it says in the Bible. But the moment you put in the words 'I think', it fails to be the inerrant word of God. Every other person holding to beliefs about the end times will tell you exactly the same thing...that they think such and such is true. Of course we think it, or we wouldn't believe it! But anyone who is honest recognises that as humans we are flawed and liable to misunderstand and make mistakes. To claim otherwise it folly and arrogance.

    So here's the point I think everyone is trying to make...you have the right to disagree with us, you even have the right to argue biblically over the issue. But you do not have the right to "point out our condemnation" as if you know all and are the only one who's "I thinks" are right.
     
  14. teamventure

    teamventure Well-Known Member

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    veteran the truth is that someone who believes in a post or mid trib rapture are just as likely to fall for the antichrist as a pre tribber.
     
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    I don't deny that there are many people who have been led away from the original truth of Scripture, but do not be so ready to judge them because of how they were taught to believe!

    If you want to take 2 Cor. 11 to its logical end, almost all Christians today believe in "another Jesus" other than the One who was here during His First Advent! Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym was not sent to the Goyim (Gentiles) AT ALL (Matt. 15:24)! He merely let a "few crumbs fall from the children's table for the dogs," as the Phoenician woman gave as an analogy (Matt. 15:27). He was an observant JEW, zealous for His Father's House!

    Most have a weak idea of what the Gospel is, knowing NOTHING about the real essence of the Gospel of the Kingdom that Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) heralded and that Yeshua` proclaimed. When His disciples were sent out to announce this Gospel of the Kingdom to the towns of the Jews, they took it to no other people! It was STRICTLY a message for the Jews only!

    And, 2 Thess. 2:1-11 is a mystery to many Christians today because they don't know what a "man of sin" or a "man of lawlessness" or a "lawless one" is! They don't know that the term is DIRECTLY referring to a person against observing the TORAH, against obeying the Law of God given to Mosheh (Moses)! Consequently, they have WEIRD ideas about who the "man of sin" is and whom he leads astray. This produces a confusion about what the "restrainer" is and what the "rebellion" or the "falling away" is!

    Many Christians today are so far removed from their Jewish roots, that they have NO CLUE what 2 Thess. 2:1-11 is talking about! Therefore, they have made up their OWN conclusions that are just way off base.

    BUT IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT! They've been TAUGHT to believe those things by a long line of deluded teachers, who were/are just as misled as their pupils! They've been lied to by those "lying spirits" since the second century A.D! 2 Thes. 2:7 even suggests that it started in the first century for Paul said the anti-Torah attitude was already at work! And, no matter how diligent a person may study, "one does not know that he does not know what he does not know!" Sometimes, blind spots that stem from past teachings are so persistent because the teachings are so well-entrenched! Sometimes, one will read a particular passage and just automatically interpret it as they've been taught to interpret it and just CAN'T SEE IT ANY OTHER WAY! It takes a Herculean effort for a person to see a passage differently!

    So, don't be so quick to condemn others! You yourself may have some blind spots to overcome! (I believe we ALL do!) Instead, do your diligence to LEAD others into what truth you know, not PUSH them into it!
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The difference is with believing what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles already told 'us' would befall us IF... we fail to heed what they warned of for the end of this world. And that involves their warnings per Scripture about falling away to bow to the coming Antichrist, specifically the one of Rev.13:11 forward associated with causing the image of the beast and mark in false worship. So Christ and His Apostles already gave us those warnings, and He declared His judgments to come upon those who don't heed His warning about that. That's HIS warning of condemnation, not mine.

    But obviously, some just don't like to be reminded of our Lord and His Apostle's warnings to not bow in false worship to that one of Rev.13! That even reminds me of a Scripture in Isaiah when the people of Israel didn't want to hear Truth, but smooth things in their ears instead...

    Isa 30:9-11
    9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
    10 Which say to the seers, "See not"; and to the prophets, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
    11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
    (KJV)

    Yeah, and I already responded to that idea. Anyone who fails to heed our Lord's and His Apostle's warnings per Scripture about the end time events can be deceived into bowing to the false messiah when he comes, and accept the mark of the beast.

    Yet that does not alter the order of events per Scripture about Christ's second coming and His judgments. His coming and judgments are going to happen as written. And per the Matt.24:29-31 declaration by our Lord Jesus, His coming is after the tribulation He spoke of, as is also the time of our gathering to Him.


    So you want to get on that false boat with Rach too? Are those who keep God's Word as written that declare His warnings per written Scripture taking over Christ's Authority as Judge? Do you want to strike out all those written Scripture warnings too, like Rach does?

    Do you not see how that kind of idea is today's false "political correctness" attitudes from Satan's servants, his 'thought police'?

    Haven't you been aware of how those now attack preachers in the pulpits today that are not afraid to declare Christ's judgments upon the wicked that are soon coming? Are you afraid to declare Christ's and His Apostles' warnings to His Church? Should we as His servants just shut up about all that? (I tell you now, I have no intention of shutting up about it! And the kitchen is liable to get a lot hotter before I'm done!)


    Most brethren I've talked to about the "another Jesus" concept Apostle Paul mentioned are completely unaware that Scripture even exists. And your view on who Christ was sent to needs a lot more Bible study, for He was sent to Jerusalem first, but those at Jerusalem rejected Him. And He was most definitely sent to the Gentiles after that because of the Jews rejecting Him. And then western Christian history follows as direct evidence among the believing Gentiles. That Christian history is what makes your statement of who Christ was sent to sound erroneous.


    Until the majority of the Jews rejected Christ Jesus and His Gospel, and then that same Gospel was then sent to the Gentiles, like Apostle Paul even admitted to the Jews per the end of the Book of Acts. Not only that, but that Gospel went to lost Israel (non-Jews) that was first scattered among the Gentiles, along with the rest of scattered Judah among the Gentiles (James 1:1).


    The 2 Thess.2 events are going to remain a mystery to many; I'm well aware of that. But some are given to understand it today and thus it must be taught to them before it comes to pass. I'm also aware how some teach that "man of sin" is about groups of people instead of a singular false one like the Scripture actually declares. But since Paul linked the same working of signs and wonders with what our Lord Jesus covered already in His Olivet Discourse, and through John in Revelation 13:11-17, those who claim to be learned in God's Word have no excuse to not heed Paul's warning about that "strong delusion".


    So should we not be dilligent in unmasking the false prophets that go directly opposite the Scripture's meaning, and if not, then why not? Doesn't matter what others think of me, I'm going to reveal it for the benefit of those who are to know. And I'm not going to be scared of those who come here trying to use "political correctness" doctrines of the devil to try and silence it.


    There you go again climbing into Rach's false boat of political correctness ideas about condemning speech. I have no intention of being like a reed shaking in the wind, as others here are.
     
  17. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    The only 'snatching away' that will occur in the foreseeable future will be the loss of an opportunity to exercise one's faith, assuming one accepts the Rapture fantasy as gospel. It isn't, you know. Belief and hope in the great beam out to solve our problems is illusory.

    The ideology of the rapture is nothing more than a twisted form of dispensationalism. It is a perversion of the gospel and an attempt by the enemy to cause the elect to lose sight of their very real hope - the current and continuing presence of the Holy Spirit and His ministrations to us.

    Did not our Lord pray to the father NOT to take us out of the world, but that the father would send us a comforter? Anybody pay attention to that one? I mean, that was Jesus, man. Don't you think He knew what was going on? Big news flash, the Holy Spirit is here - big time. No plans to leave either.

    Think about it for a minute. If the church is evacuated, along with the Holy Spirit, how shall others repent and be saved? The rapture ideology admits that people will continue to be saved after the beam out. That cannot happen if the Holy Spirit has left town. That's just one major flaw in the theory. There's lots more where that came from.

    If escapism is what you crave, I suggest a fishing trip or perhaps a good movie. Clear the cobwebs out of your mind about the rapture. It just isn't going to happen that way. Every so often some clown stands up and declares in front of God and everybody that the rapture is going to happen in such and such a day. The day comes and goes, nothing happens AND NOBODY GETS IT.

    Somebody is now thinking that I'm denying the Blessed Hope altogether. I'm not, but before you start a knee jerk post in reaction to this, please go back and prayerfully consider what I've said here.

    Or don't.

    It's your call, even if the call is as whimsical as a trip to Tattooine. I'd rather wait for the Bat Signal, but that isn't going to happen either. Commissioner Gordon is on vacation and so is the Batman. The rapture game? Give it a rest, please.

    but that's just me hollering from the choir loft....
     
  18. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I do not see this as a plan to lose sight, for we know not to worry for tomorrow. I see it as another assurance as to not worry about the impending wrath this world will see. Also to say the HolySpirit will be gone is another farce as the 144,000 will be sealed. We will also have the two witnesses. Let alone to say God's omnipresence. Thats just me hollering from the center of the choir. :)
     
  19. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, veteran.

    Look, bro', all I'm saying is attack the message, not the messenger, ESPECIALLY if that messenger is a born-again believer, because when one attacks a child of God, one is attacking the Father also - a VERY dangerous blunder! That's a good way to get a whippin'!
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    II Th 2:6-7
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    (KJV)

    Lot of the pre-trib rapture Churches teach that "he" there that withholds is The Holy Spirit. Thus their doctrine also of The Holy Spirit being removed off the earth with that "he be taken out of the way."

    The true meaning though, is about Archangel Michael, for in Daniel 10 we were shown heavenly events with Michael helping the angel withhold. That withholdeth event is simply about the one withholding the coming of that false messiah of 2 Thess.2 until it's time to start the end time tribulation. Our Lord Jesus revealed that also in Rev.12 about the war in Heaven between Michael and his angels vs. Satan and his angels, with the dragon and his angels being cast down to this earth.

    The 'wrath' of 1 Thess.5 which Paul spoke of is upon the deceived who will say, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them, and they shall not escape. That's about the time of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked, and when does that occur per God's Word?

    God's wrath, or wrath of the Lamb, occurs AT His second coming and our gathering. It does NOT... occur during... the tribulation our Lord Jesus spoke of! That 'wrath' of 1 Thess.5 is God's wrath to occur on "the day of the Lord". And that day, is the day of Christ's return and our gathering. Thus the pre-trib rapture doctrinists reveal how they have failed to understand not only what that wrath is, but also when it comes upon the wicked.

    Really, and now you're doing the very thing you wrongly accused me of! And you're even lying about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine! So you and Rach both can take your 'political correctness' attitudes and point 'em at someone else! I won't listen to it!
     
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