The Rapture vs. the Pre-tribulational Rapture

[Davy]

In case some of my Christian brethren are not aware...

There is a major difference between the idea of a 'rapture' verses the idea of a 'pre-tribulational rapture'. I even had to explain this to my sister per Scripture again, because she had been listening to Pre-trib Rapture theory programming on TV.

1. the word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible firstly. The Greek word for "caught up" in the KJV of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the word harpazo (NT:726). It means to seize. From this Greek word harpazo into Latin is where the word 'rapture' comes from.

2. There will be a harpazo event for Christ's Church on the day of His future return ("caught up" in the KJV Bible per 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Some call this simply, 'the rapture', but I choose to use the KJV "caught up" most of the time, so as to not confuse...

3. The teaching of a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture is what is false. What makes it false is the 'timing' suggested. The Bible teaches Jesus comes in the future only one time to gather His Church on the last day of this present world. But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory of man instead wrongly teaches that Jesus comes PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION to gather His Church, and then all those Left-behind go through the "great tribulation". This is NOT what God's Word teaches at all.

4. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctors like to drop that single word 'rapture' on the unsuspecting about their 'idea' of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation. And this abuse of that word 'rapture' has gone on so long that when many simply hear... that word rapture, they automatically think that means the Church being gathered PRIOR to the great tribulation, which simply is NOT true per God's written Word.

So if you want to use that Latin derived word 'rapture' (which is not actually in The Bible), then WHICH TIMING do you mean? A post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is written)? or a pre-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is NOT written)?

 

[friend of]

Hmm yeah I used to believe in Pretribulation rapture but I'm not so sure I do anymore. It seems so fantastical a miracle.

 

[Tommy Cool]

In case some of my Christian brethren are not aware...

There is a major difference between the idea of a 'rapture' verses the idea of a 'pre-tribulational rapture'. I even had to explain this to my sister per Scripture again, because she had been listening to Pre-trib Rapture theory programming on TV.

1. the word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible firstly. The Greek word for "caught up" in the KJV of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the word harpazo (NT:726). It means to seize. From this Greek word harpazo into Latin is where the word 'rapture' comes from.

2. There will be a harpazo event for Christ's Church on the day of His future return ("caught up" in the KJV Bible per 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Some call this simply, 'the rapture', but I choose to use the KJV "caught up" most of the time, so as to not confuse...

3. The teaching of a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture is what is false. What makes it false is the 'timing' suggested. The Bible teaches Jesus comes in the future only one time to gather His Church on the last day of this present world. But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory of man instead wrongly teaches that Jesus comes PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION to gather His Church, and then all those Left-behind go through the "great tribulation". This is NOT what God's Word teaches at all.

4. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctors like to drop that single word 'rapture' on the unsuspecting about their 'idea' of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation. And this abuse of that word 'rapture' has gone on so long that when many simply hear... that word rapture, they automatically think that means the Church being gathered PRIOR to the great tribulation, which simply is NOT true per God's written Word.

So if you want to use that Latin derived word 'rapture' (which is not actually in The Bible), then WHICH TIMING do you mean? A post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is written)? or a pre-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is NOT written)?

I agree…. the prophecy from both the OT and that which Jesus spoke of in the gospels … depict only one return to earth.

There is one circumstance and several differences between those prophecy stated in the Word and that of the “gathering together unto Him” (I will use the word rapture for short)

The circumstance that took place was initiated at Pentecost with the fullness thereof being realized several years later when Paul received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. The mystery of the one body, salvation by grace, the one new man, etc, etc… Including the rapture which embodies the culmination of the mystery and the termination of the administration of grace.... was all hid in God.

1Pe 1:10-12 The prophets of old could see the sufferings of Jesus and the glory that would come from Old Testament scriptures, but they could not see this age of grace that God had kept secret; it was sandwiched in-between the sufferings and the glory … no one knew …except God….and for good reason Had the Devil known about this secret he would never have crucified the Lord of Glory …the devil was totally unaware of Gods plan …the mystery. The devil would much rather have had Jesus Christ present on earth then to have millions of believers with Christ in them scattered across the world. 1Co 2:7&8

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid in God, who created all things [ X X X ]
X” Note: The words [by Jesus Christ:] were added by translators and are not in any earlier Greek manuscripts. KJV does include the words …most other common translations do not.

If you read through 1Th 4:13-18, You will see that it’s addressing the brethren, those which are alive and those who sleep “in Jesus” or “in Christ” (terms that are only used to represent believers in the age of grace) This does not address unbelievers from the grace administration and no believers or unbelievers prior to the grace administration.

1Th 5:1 goes on to distinguish between those of the night ☹.... and the brethren of the day . Keeping an eye on the pronouns (they & them) of those from “the Day of the Lord” or “the Lords Day” which is representative of the tribulation period.

If there is one difference between the rapture and when Christ returns as Lord of Lords it is either a mistake by God or it is not the same event….I am pretty confident in Gods inerrancy as I am sure you are also……Here are just a couple

1Th 4:17 Christ never comes to the earth ….believers who are still alive are caught up together with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Angel verses Angels
1Th 4:16 with the voice of the archangel (singular)

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels (plural)
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels (plural) with him

 

[Robert Gwin]

I agree…. the prophecy from both the OT and that which Jesus spoke of in the gospels … depict only one return to earth.

There is one circumstance and several differences between those prophecy stated in the Word and that of the “gathering together unto Him” (I will use the word rapture for short)

The circumstance that took place was initiated at Pentecost with the fullness thereof being realized several years later when Paul received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. The mystery of the one body, salvation by grace, the one new man, etc, etc… Including the rapture which embodies the culmination of the mystery and the termination of the administration of grace.... was all hid in God.

1Pe 1:10-12 The prophets of old could see the sufferings of Jesus and the glory that would come from Old Testament scriptures, but they could not see this age of grace that God had kept secret; it was sandwiched in-between the sufferings and the glory … no one knew …except God….and for good reason Had the Devil known about this secret he would never have crucified the Lord of Glory …the devil was totally unaware of Gods plan …the mystery. The devil would much rather have had Jesus Christ present on earth then to have millions of believers with Christ in them scattered across the world. 1Co 2:7&8

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (age) hath been hid in God, who created all things [ X X X ]
X” Note: The words [by Jesus Christ:] were added by translators and are not in any earlier Greek manuscripts. KJV does include the words …most other common translations do not.

If you read through 1Th 4:13-18, You will see that it’s addressing the brethren, those which are alive and those who sleep “in Jesus” or “in Christ” (terms that are only used to represent believers in the age of grace) This does not address unbelievers from the grace administration and no believers or unbelievers prior to the grace administration.

1Th 5:1 goes on to distinguish between those of the night ☹.... and the brethren of the day . Keeping an eye on the pronouns (they & them) of those from “the Day of the Lord” or “the Lords Day” which is representative of the tribulation period.

If there is one difference between the rapture and when Christ returns as Lord of Lords it is either a mistake by God or it is not the same event….I am pretty confident in Gods inerrancy as I am sure you are also……Here are just a couple

1Th 4:17 Christ never comes to the earth ….believers who are still alive are caught up together with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Angel verses Angels
1Th 4:16 with the voice of the archangel (singular)

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels (plural)
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels (plural) with him

Mat 24 reveals that the born again Christians that remain to meet the lord in the air upon his return live through the tribulation, in fact that is the reason given for Jesus return coming to end the tribulation Mat 24:22

 

[Charlie24]

In case some of my Christian brethren are not aware...

There is a major difference between the idea of a 'rapture' verses the idea of a 'pre-tribulational rapture'. I even had to explain this to my sister per Scripture again, because she had been listening to Pre-trib Rapture theory programming on TV.

1. the word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible firstly. The Greek word for "caught up" in the KJV of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the word harpazo (NT:726). It means to seize. From this Greek word harpazo into Latin is where the word 'rapture' comes from.

2. There will be a harpazo event for Christ's Church on the day of His future return ("caught up" in the KJV Bible per 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Some call this simply, 'the rapture', but I choose to use the KJV "caught up" most of the time, so as to not confuse...

3. The teaching of a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture is what is false. What makes it false is the 'timing' suggested. The Bible teaches Jesus comes in the future only one time to gather His Church on the last day of this present world. But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory of man instead wrongly teaches that Jesus comes PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION to gather His Church, and then all those Left-behind go through the "great tribulation". This is NOT what God's Word teaches at all.

4. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctors like to drop that single word 'rapture' on the unsuspecting about their 'idea' of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation. And this abuse of that word 'rapture' has gone on so long that when many simply hear... that word rapture, they automatically think that means the Church being gathered PRIOR to the great tribulation, which simply is NOT true per God's written Word.

So if you want to use that Latin derived word 'rapture' (which is not actually in The Bible), then WHICH TIMING do you mean? A post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is written)? or a pre-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is NOT written)?

Actually, the word "Rapture" is just an identifier as your name identifies you. As explained by Paul, it is the resurrection of the just. But as you mention, the timing is the problem for many.

The pre-trib rapture can't be understood without recognizing the separation of how God deals with Israel and the Church. Of course salvation for both Jew and Gentile has always been by faith in the Messiah, but God deals separately with the salvation of the Jews.

As this is taken to its conclusion, the pre-trib rapture begins to appear. The account of Scripture for the "rapture" as Paul explains it, is much different than the account of Scripture for the Second Coming. There are many details in comparison that make these two separate events. Of course, the arguments will continue until the Lord comes to settle it.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello,
Many are having rapture dreams of late. To be "Caught up" also correctly means to be "snatched up". This event is soon to happen. Call it whatever you want. I had what I call a "rapture dream". I was told a sign of his coming, not when. This Ukraine conflict is in God's plan to bring Jews back to Israel and has brought a revival in Ukraine and Russia.

 

[Charlie24]

Hello,
Many are having rapture dreams of late. To be "Caught up" also correctly means to be "snatched up". This event is soon to happen. Call it whatever you want. I had what I call a "rapture dream". I was told a sign of his coming, not when. This Ukraine conflict is in God's plan to bring Jews back to Israel and has brought a revival in Ukraine and Russia.

We all have our own ideas of how and when this will happen, but there is going to be a snatching away just the way Paul described it.

The important thing for me is to be ready with my lamp full of oil when and if it does take place in my time.

 

[Davy]

Hello,
Many are having rapture dreams of late. To be "Caught up" also correctly means to be "snatched up". This event is soon to happen. Call it whatever you want. I had what I call a "rapture dream". I was told a sign of his coming, not when. This Ukraine conflict is in God's plan to bring Jews back to Israel and has brought a revival in Ukraine and Russia.

My point with this Thread is how that word 'rapture' is often abused. Just by your saying that word some will automatically think it means being 'caught up' PRIOR to the "great tribulation" which Lord Jesus warned us about for the end of this world.

And let me be clear on this also, the return of a portion of the Jews back to the holy lands is NOT about the future "caught up" event, so I don't understand why you would associate that here.

Going Deeper:
The "caught up" event will actually involve the 'change' on the "last trump", "at the twinkling of an eye", which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. It means those still alive on earth being immediately changed to the spiritual body, including the wicked (see Isaiah 25). The 7th Vial is poured out not upon the earth, but into the "air". Many brethren do not realize why that is. At best, some tend to think it might have something to do with being "caught up" on the "last trump". It does, but also something else. It involves the change all that are still alive on earth will go through on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes. For the wicked that are destroyed by that event, Zechariah 14 gives a pretty graphic example of their melting away by that event. That event will actually end this present world earth age by God's consuming fire burning man's works off the surface of this earth.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Davy,

Your said "And let me be clear on this also, the return of a portion of the Jews back to the holy lands is NOT about the future "caught up" event, so I don't understand why you would associate that here."

A. You brought the term "Caught up"

B. My "rapture dream". It is the Holy Spirit who told me, and I quote " when all the Jews return to Israel"; This is when the " caught up" will take place.

 

[Davy]

B. My "rapture dream". It is the Holy Spirit who told me, and I quote " when all the Jews return to Israel"; This is when the " caught up" will take place.

But that idea is nowhere written in God's Word. At present, the geographic size of the nation state of Israel isn't large enough to house the number of Jews in the world.

I realize that many of the Jews think that since the large return to form the nation state of Israel in 1948, they think God is in process 'today' of the restoration of old Israel, but that is not what is happening. I even catch them at times quoting Scripture from The Old Testament about restoration which is actually meant for the 'last day' of this world when Jesus Christ returns.

What is still yet to happen upon the unbelieving Jews for the end of this world, prior to Christ's return, is many of them will be deceived by the coming of a false-Messiah to Jerusalem whom they will be told is their Messiah of the Old Testament prophets. Those Jews who reject Christ Jesus will instead fall to worship that fake Messiah instead.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello,
I'll stick to what the Holy Spirit says. The Holy Spirit has been talking to me for 34 years and everything He has said has come true.

John 16: 13-14 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Davy]

Hello,
I'll stick to what the Holy Spirit says. The Holy Spirit has been talking to me for 34 years and everything He has said has come true.

John 16: 13-14 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And I will stick to what BOTH The Holy Spirit... AND God's written Word says, because God's written Word was given to God's servants via The Holy Spirit.

That means God's written Word AND The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS AGREE with each other.


And based on what you said with...

"My "rapture dream". It is the Holy Spirit who told me, and I quote " when all the Jews return to Israel"; This is when the " caught up" will take place."

... you also associated in your post Jews in Ukraine and Russia returning to the holy lands.

You said...
"This Ukraine conflict is in God's plan to bring Jews back to Israel and has brought a revival in Ukraine and Russia."

That might involve many in Ukraine and Russia converting to Christ Jesus, but it has nothing to do with their fleeing to the holy lands prior... to the day of Jesus' future coming. And that was my point.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Hello,
I'll stick to what the Holy Spirit says. The Holy Spirit has been talking to me for 34 years and everything He has said has come true.

John 16: 13-14 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

God can certainly do more than His Word declares, and frequently does.

God cannot do less than His Word …and will never contradict His Word which He has magnified above all His name (Psa 138:2). …..If He did contradict His Word ….we have nothing left.

A chain is only as good as its weakest link …

Today in the body of Christ ….there are no Jews. There are 3 groups of people in the Bible ….Jews, Gentile, and Church of God. Today there is neither Jew nor Gentile, we are one new man in Christ….. That doesn’t change until Revelation.

 

[keithr]

1Th 4:17 Christ never comes to the earth ….believers who are still alive are caught up together with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB) says:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

That sure sounds to me like Jesus does come to the earth (or at least to the air above the earth, among the clouds).

 

[Tommy Cool]

This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB) says:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

That sure sounds to me like Jesus does come to the earth (or at least to the air above the earth, among the clouds).

God designed man (in the beginning) to communicate by words. It’s how God communicates with us and how we communicate with God and with others around us.

While the word of man many times falls short, and can unleash a symphony of untruths, distain, and hatred from the untamed tongue …the Word of God never falls short. God means what He says and says what He means ….and it will accomplish that which He intends.

God never uses words capriciously or indiscriminately…..and it is not up to us to fill in the blank of what we think God meant to fit our beliefs ( I have been there, and I suck at being God) Our objective as Christians is to read what is written ….see how it fits in the verse, in the context (both immediate and remoter) and attempt to understand Gods heart in … what, why, how, when, and to whom this was written. …. without trying to squeeze our own beliefs in….which is something we all (including myself) are predisposed to do.

Your parenthesis → (or at least to the air above the earth, among the clouds) would be absolutely correct.

Anyplace above the earth biblically are referred to as the “atmospheric heavens” ….the other two are the “celestial” and beyond the celestial is someplace we will see when Jesus returns for us, where “God Jesus and the angels reside”

 

[amigo de christo]

Hello,
Many are having rapture dreams of late. To be "Caught up" also correctly means to be "snatched up". This event is soon to happen. Call it whatever you want. I had what I call a "rapture dream". I was told a sign of his coming, not when. This Ukraine conflict is in God's plan to bring Jews back to Israel and has brought a revival in Ukraine and Russia.

My suggestion is we examine these revivals . Cause most folks experiencing these revivals
are experiencing the all inclusive lets be one revival . WHICH AINT NO REVIVAL .
ITS THE FORETOLD FALLING AWAY . We better examine what JESUS these folks are following
and what love they be preaching . cause a false love has arisen and again its all part of that falling away .

 

[amigo de christo]

PS , it aint hard at all to get large numbers to follow a jesus that accepts sins and other paths . DO TRY AND REMEMBER THAT .
The ONLY TRUE JESUS is the one in that bible . And he did not support sin . Nor did he support any other way or religion to GOD
either . SO IF YA JESUS DOES , IT AINT JESUS . ITS THE DEVIL just using the name of JESUS

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

God designed man (in the beginning) to communicate by words. It’s how God communicates with us and how we communicate with God and with others around us.

While the word of man many times falls short, and can unleash a symphony of untruths, distain, and hatred from the untamed tongue …the Word of God never falls short. God means what He says and says what He means ….and it will accomplish that which He intends.

God never uses words capriciously or indiscriminately…..and it is not up to us to fill in the blank of what we think God meant to fit our beliefs ( I have been there, and I suck at being God) Our objective as Christians is to read what is written ….see how it fits in the verse, in the context (both immediate and remoter) and attempt to understand Gods heart in … what, why, how, when, and to whom this was written. …. without trying to squeeze our own beliefs in….which is something we all (including myself) are predisposed to do.

Your parenthesis → (or at least to the air above the earth, among the clouds) would be absolutely correct.

Anyplace above the earth biblically are referred to as the “atmospheric heavens” ….the other two are the “celestial” and beyond the celestial is someplace we will see when Jesus returns for us, where “God Jesus and the angels reside”

The clouds means his Majesty, in his Majesty ?
The Air means The Spirit.

 

[Tommy Cool]

The clouds means his Majesty, in his Majesty ?
The Air means The Spirit.

I don’t know where you get those definitions from …but we have to define words according to how the Bible assigns them.

This is the first use of this word AIR in the Greek (aēr) Act 22:23 as referred to atmospheric air.

A cloud is simply a cloudy, cloud-mass from the Greek nephelē Mat 17:5 is the first and continued use.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I don’t know where you get those definitions from …but we have to define words according to how the Bible assigns them.

This is the first use of this word AIR in the Greek (aēr) Act 22:23 as referred to atmospheric air.

A cloud is simply a cloudy, cloud-mass from the Greek nephelē Mat 17:5 is the first and continued use.

You have no Spiritual understanding then do you. Such is coming from a one who is clearly totally carnal. I could get some idiot carnal dupe picked up from the street and such would see it as you see such. Truly ! just go out and ask such a one.

When one understands or has a handle on understanding Hebrew History and how the interpret from Hebrew etc is translated into English you may understand better what is truly being translated.

Biblical Cloud relates to Gods Majesty and Air relates to the Holy Spirit in fact.