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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by mahabirjem, May 15, 2008.

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  1. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (kriss;50082)
    It clearly say it can mean the World as I said if it causes contradiction the fault is with the reader not the World believe what you chose but this verse does not mean what you say because you want to see it that way
    Even if it means "world", WORLD IS NOT THE EARTH. If you keep with the "theme" of all the meanings of the word "heavens" they are in no means referring to a land mass, or the earth.I don't want to see it any way. In all sincerity, I have had no possition coming into this. But studying this verse, it is clear... the saints are not on the earth. I'm not making it say anything... it says what it says. And, if you want it to mean world, that's fine... because "universe" being the alternate meaning of world, in no way means the "earth". TOTALLY different. Given the fact that is your own pivot argument, it falls apart because it has nothing to do with the earth itself.
     
  2. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (DONNIE;50083)
    You guys amaze me. I wish I had the ability to do what you do. I'm only 5 months into it. Maybe one day?
    Hey, the Word of God can be undestood simply [​IMG].Try www.blueletterbible.com -- you can reference the greek and hebrew languages, depending on whichever is relevant.
     
  3. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

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    Then why is the rapture so confusing. Everyone seems to be right. I do have a concordance and commentary and am learning how to use them together. Matching up OT and NT verses is tough.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."The second coming of Jesus Christ will be just that quick, the time it take the sun to rise and to set, is the time that it will take for all the events of the final day happen, and be over with. It is just as sure as the sun comes up every morning, and sets in the evening, that is the absolute reliability that what Christ says, will come true. Matthew 24:28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."The word of "eagles", should be translated "vultures". The carcass are the spiritual dead, and these vultures of Satan, the Antichrist will feed on every spiritual dead person on the face of the earth.Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations,(or two parts) and you need to know the difference. God Wrath is the second part after this tribulation (satans) and this second part Gods wrath is the battel of Amaggedon not against believersMatthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before. Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God. Are you one of God's elect? Are you going to be in the field working for God, or wandering after the fake Christ?Matthew 24:32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"This lets us know that the generation of the end times begin in the year 1948. For both the good and the bad fig tree returned to Judaea and were placed there, as Jeremiah wrote in Jeremiah 24. That is the subject of Matthew 24. Jesus told us in Mark 13:28, 29, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near," [28] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh even at the doors." [29]The bad figs are the tares, and Matthew 13 discusses this parable in detail. Jesus even explains it to His disciples in verses 36-43. The parable of the fig tree is "the parable of the tares of the field". Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.""It is near, even at the doors", should read, "He is near, even at the doors." When you see the Antichrist stand, and proclaim himself to be God, and you are still in your flesh body, and the sun, moon and stars are still in the sky, know that the coming of the True Christ is very near. Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.""This generation" is the parable of the fig tree, that was alive at the planting of the fig tree in 1948. It is the generation that we are living in today.Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."My best advice Donnie is learn the Word without any idea of Rapture in your head once you learn it the way the apsotels and taught it and God wrote it. revisit rapture theory and see how it fits you will miss much if you try to learn it through a man made theroy. You lose nothing to learn it as written first.
     
  5. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (DONNIE;50087)
    Then why is the rapture so confusing. Everyone seems to be right. I do have a concordance and commentary and am learning how to use them together. Matching up OT and NT verses is tough.
    God only knows brother... but I'm done talking about it (tribulation/rapture).Take care! Let us not neglect the weightier matters of the law... such as justice, mercy, and faith. [​IMG]:pray4:
     
  6. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

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    I appreciate your imput. Yours too Kriss. I'm learning from you both.
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (DONNIE;50078)
    All I am asking is how can 85% of the churches in America, most TV evangalists and the majority of Christians be wrong. Why would preachers keep preaching it if its wrong. Why hasn't someone corrected 85% of America. 85% is a bunch of people and it's hard to believe that just 15% know their stuff and will be saved while the rest of us wont be. That makes no sense and like I said..I doubt God meant for it to be so rediculously hard to understand that only a select few like you can figure out the riddle.Donnie
    God never meant to make it hard to understand. Only humans have make it hard to understand, because without Christ, we can never understand the spiritual of what God is saying.
     
  8. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

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    "My best advice Donnie is learn the Word without any idea of Rapture in your head once you learn it the way the apsotels and taught it and God wrote it. revisit rapture theory and see how it fits you will miss much if you try to learn it through a man made theroy. You lose nothing to learn it as written first."And very good advice at that. Thank you Kriss.
     
  9. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

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    (thesuperjag;50095)
    God never meant to make it hard to understand. Only humans have make it hard to understand, because without Christ, we can never understand the spiritual of what God is saying.
    Thanks Jag. And i'm truly sorry for the jab yesterday. Frustration took over. Donnie
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Donnie;50097)
    (thesuperjag;50095)
    God never meant to make it hard to understand. Only humans have make it hard to understand, because without Christ, we can never understand the spiritual of what God is saying.
    Thanks Jag. And i'm truly sorry for the jab yesterday. Frustration took over.DonnieI forgive you Donnie. Seventy times seven. I love you all the same. May God bless you with His wisdom. [​IMG]Jordan
     
  11. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    I like the NLT on these... but by all means, refer to the KJV if you prefer.
    2 Peter 3:15-16And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him— speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.2 Corinthians 5:10-13:For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body. Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too. Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us, so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart. If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit.​
    There are many things difficult to understand... and truly only God knows the heart as to why we teach anything but the truth... be it out of laziness, or a lack of wisdom (perhaps we haven't humbly asked for wisdom), or because we willfully want to twist it to accomodate our sin? God knows, and He will sort it out. We can only be accountable for our own actions and beliefs. The regretable fact at the end of these discussions is that SOMEONE is wrong, and falls into the catagory of those who are twisting God's Word. Even if it is not our intent, it is our action. I do not by any means believe "destruction" is a matter of salvation (accept for those who do so flamingly, to discredit Christianity because they themselves are not Christians), but rather... the destruction of what they *thought* they were building. Because, we know that in the end, our works will be tried with fire... and our good and bad will be weighed. We'll be in heaven, but there will be a price to pay for our evil... and a reward for our good. Priase the Lord, we will all (believers) be with Him in heaven! But, our works will be tried with fire... the hay, wood, and stubble will be burned... and only our pure works will remain.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I can't stand the NLT for one major reason...
     
  13. sosthenes

    sosthenes Guest

    (kriss;50000)
    It just depends on where you look Donnie you have to compare the scriptures for yourself and pray for knowlegde. there are many that will tell you the truth. If you are willing to have eyes to seeProverbs 10:30 says "The righteous shall (((((never))))) be removed: but the wicked shall (((not))) inhabit the earth."
    Proverbs 10:30 doesn't disprove the raptureBy Sosthenes 5-22-2008I wrote another article on Hermeneutics as to why we should interpret the Bible by what a passage means and not by what it says only. Proverbs 10:30 doesn't disprove the rapture.I was reading this argument online regarding the rapture. I believe it is a proof text regarding the rapture:proverbs 10:30 says "The righteous shall (((((never))))) be removed: but the wicked shall (((not))) inhabit the earth."In dealing with this verse, it isn't enough to know what the verse says but it is important to know what the verse means.What is the verse saying?On face value, it would seem that it is saying that the righteous shall never be removed (raptured) and that the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. If we take the prooftext to be correct about the rapture then does that mean that there aren't any wicked people or that mystery Babylon doesn't exist or inhabit the earth in Revelation 17:5.These two verses among many others prove there is wickedness on the earth:psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he market his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. And what does it mean that the righteous shall never be removed when the Bible says:Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: How do we become righteous? God calls things not as they were (Romans 4:17) and we have only received a down payment (an "earnest" in 2 Corinthians 1:22) and we still sin (1 John 1:8-9).Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.We're made righteous positionally but we essentially still sinners (practically and physically) because our corruption hasn't yet put on incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:42).Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Until then, there will be the beginning of sorrows:Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.“Earthquakes, in divers places” specifies Earthquakes (seismos: a shaking, tempest, a commotion) from the higher to the lower places.Matthew 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.Did you catch that where Daniel writes that he "...shall wear out the saints of the most High.."? Let us look at Psalm 10:30 again:proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed (mowt): but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.Mowt means to "totter, shake, slip". When will the righteous totter, shake or slip? If you hold to the theory that the Rapture won't happen then you have to hold the view that the righteous people will be here when there is a lot of totter, shaking and slipping going on:Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Only when God comes and overthrows the wicked in the end is when the wicked shall not inhabit the earth because Jesus Christ will reign.I may see Proverbs 10:30 as a hint of a future promise like this one:Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.(And someone may say that that this post is simple but I spent at least an hour looking up different verses and just because something looks easy doesn’t mean it takes time to disprove. In order to get people to understand what I’m saying, it has to be communicated like it is easy but it takes work and effort with a verse that apparently doesn’t look like it says what it means.)
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (sosthenes;50118)
    Proverbs 10:30 doesn't disprove the raptureBy Sosthenes 5-22-2008I wrote another article on Hermeneutics as to why we should interpret the Bible by what a passage means and not by what it says only. Proverbs 10:30 doesn't disprove the rapture.I was reading this argument online regarding the rapture. I believe it is a proof text regarding the rapture:proverbs 10:30 says "The righteous shall (((((never))))) be removed: but the wicked shall (((not))) inhabit the earth."In dealing with this verse, it isn't enough to know what the verse says but it is important to know what the verse means.What is the verse saying?On face value, it would seem that it is saying that the righteous shall never be removed (raptured) and that the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. If we take the prooftext to be correct about the rapture then does that mean that there aren't any wicked people or that mystery Babylon doesn't exist or inhabit the earth in Revelation 17:5.These two verses among many others prove there is wickedness on the earth:psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he market his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. And what does it mean that the righteous shall never be removed when the Bible says:Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: How do we become righteous? God calls things not as they were (Romans 4:17) and we have only received a down payment (an "earnest" in 2 Corinthians 1:22) and we still sin (1 John 1:8-9).Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.We're made righteous positionally but we essentially still sinners (practically and physically) because our corruption hasn't yet put on incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:42).Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Until then, there will be the beginning of sorrows:Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.“Earthquakes, in divers places” specifies Earthquakes (seismos: a shaking, tempest, a commotion) from the higher to the lower places.Matthew 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.Did you catch that where Daniel writes that he "...shall wear out the saints of the most High.."? Let us look at Psalm 10:30 again:proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed (mowt): but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.Mowt means to "totter, shake, slip". When will the righteous totter, shake or slip? If you hold to the theory that the Rapture won't happen then you have to hold the view that the righteous people will be here when there is a lot of totter, shaking and slipping going on:Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Only when God comes and overthrows the wicked in the end is when the wicked shall not inhabit the earth because Jesus Christ will reign.I may see Proverbs 10:30 as a hint of a future promise like this one:Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.(And someone may say that that this post is simple but I spent at least an hour looking up different verses and just because something looks easy doesn’t mean it takes time to disprove. In order to get people to understand what I’m saying, it has to be communicated like it is easy but it takes work and effort with a verse that apparently doesn’t look like it says what it means.)
    Oh boy...sigh...Do you ever wonder that sometimes God uses the word righteous as a comparasion...Rapture doesn't exist to be quite honest as noone is going to leave Earth.
     
  15. DONNIE

    DONNIE New Member

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    "Rapture doesn't exist to be quite honest as noone is going to leave Earth."Sorry Jag. Thats just incorrect. We will leave. It's a matter of when.Respectfully,Donnie
     
  16. lecoop

    lecoop Member

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    (kriss;49707)
    I used to believe in that rapture bunk, till you try to find it in the Word,then its not there go ahead give it your best shot, show me what isnt written if you can do without twisting the scripture. There is no evidence I could care less about the Word itself being there in Latain it was never met to mean what or when men teach about it isnt taught. No one has ever been able to prove it to date Thats why its called a "Theroy" there are sites that offer money if anyone can prove it. So you think you can go for it and dont give me words of other men I want scripture and Gods Word. And as far as trinity your right the Word is not there but the concept is taught unlike rapure the Word is there in latain , but the entire concept is never taught. Nor spoken of nor is their anything about it. written anywhere in the Word.If I kicked people off for just disagreeing with me half the people here would have to be kicked off for one reason or another I dont think theres many here that agree on everything.
    "I used to believe in that rapture bunk..." Kriss, what exactly is it that you are not believing? Did you tear 1 Thessalonians 4:16 out of your bible? Are you saying that you don't believe anyone will be "caught up?"Coop
     
  17. lecoop

    lecoop Member

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    (thesuperjag;49995)
    Matthew 24:29-30 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Mark 13:24-26 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.Those are Christ's words before He died on the cross to die for our sins...if you disagree with Christ who is God...then go follow men and take it up to Him on Judgement Day...
    Pretribbers do not deny these scriptures! Some think the rapture must be here - others believe it will be about seven years before this. Again, not a good argument.Coop
     
  18. lecoop

    lecoop Member

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    (thesuperjag;49999)
    Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Just because we're Christians doesn't mean Satan can not deceive Christians to get into his wicked camp.
    It is true, deception has been going on from the days of Adam. However, pretribbers believe that they will not be here during the time you have given us above. If not here - then impossible for them to be deceived.Coop
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (lecoop;50125)
    "I used to believe in that rapture bunk..." Kriss, what exactly is it that you are not believing? Did you tear 1 Thessalonians 4:16 out of your bible? Are you saying that you don't believe anyone will be "caught up?"Coop
    Absoultly have you ever read 2 thess as to when this gathering to lord is ? Its after the falling away after the man of perdition who is Satan/antichrist who comes first there is no gathering to or catching up until after the tribulation just as Gods Word has always said.
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (lecoop;50123)
    Superjag, are you saying that you know the intent and purpose of Alan's heart? How do you know this?Coop
    Preaching a lie is vanity...and And preaching a lie is aboslutely against God.
     
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