Hi all. I saw this article and thought it might have useful info pre or post trib.If you all "moved on" from the rapture to a new subject here, my apologies.Feel free to delete this post if it's not applicable to this new(?) topic.Y'alls Brother in Christ,JimBy Terry James The Rapture – Answering the Critics This generation is full of scoffers, mocking the prophesied return of Jesus Christ to Planet Earth. This is as the great Apostle Peter foretold it would be at the end of the age of grace (Church Age): "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (2 Pet. 3:3-4). God's prophecies are 100 percent accurate, so it doesn't surprise in the least that there is the scoffing and mocking today, exactly as one of God's prophets said there will be as time nears the Lord's return. Many signals are occurring simultaneously, and with phenomenal frequency and intensity, pointing to where we are on God's prophetic timeline. Chief among these are all of the geopolitical dynamic intrigues surrounding the nation Israel –God's prophetic timepiece. The sneering at the thought that there could possibly be a rapture just throws fuel on the fire of the end-of-days deluge –the end that is coming in with a flood of last-days indicators as foretold by Daniel the prophet: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined" (Dan 9:26). Daniel was foretelling what would happen from the time the Messiah, Jesus Christ, would die for the sins of mankind until the very end of human history at Armageddon. Great, convulsing, prophesied issues and events would, near the very end of the age, he forecast, gush through the generation alive at the time like a flood. Daniel's End-Time Flood One of those predicted events of the end-time flood is the level of anger that will be against believers who proclaim that one of the most stupendous events of all human history will one day –perhaps very soon—take millions upon millions from the earth's surface in a fraction of a second. We receive in our e-mail each week any number of messages declaring that the truth we champion regarding Bible doctrine and prophecies –particularly the pre-trib rapture of the Church-- are everything from ludicrous to heretical. This criticism gets especially intense whenever the raptureready.com website is written or spoken about in a major media outlet. That is to be expected, because there can be no spiritual discernment among those of the lost world. Believers in Jesus Christ can understand, while those who do not belong to God's family through belief in His only begotten Son cannot understand: "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:11-14). Defense of Rapture to Lost and Saved Trying to explain or defend the rapture to the world of the lost is, therefore, fruitless. There is just no way they can come to understand or believe this doctrine, unless and until they repent, ask for--and accept--God's grace gift offer of salvation through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross at Calvary nearly two millennia ago. We can go through the vast body of scriptural text, laying out the Bible facts as we are confident God's Word presents truth about the rapture. But, unless and until one is capable of spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit, a person, no matter how intellectually brilliant, can never come to believe those facts. They might even come to understand the facts in a purely cerebral sense, but never truly comprehend them to the point of knowing that the rapture is a cataclysmic event in the future of one particular generation of earth's inhabitants. So, our efforts to explain the rapture will meet with quite limited results, seeing as how there is a great spiritual discernment disconnect, when explaining to those who don't know Christ for salvation. This we accept, thus can move ahead with limited frustration in putting the truth about prophecy and the rapture before these as best we can. Dealing with the Body of Christ--all born-again believers--is quite another thing, when it comes to our frustration meter. It becomes a bit more disconcerting when our efforts to put out truth about prophecy, and the rapture in particular, is met with the same arguments, no matter how thoroughly and how cogently we organize and present what God's Word has to tell His children about these matters. Hard-Shell Rapture Detractors There are, of course, the die-hard preterists (believing that most all prophecy has been completed or should be spiritualized) and the reform replacement theological enclaves (those who declare God's promises have been taken from Israel and given to the church). These make their livings throwing mudballs –usually with stones at the centers—at those of us who proclaim the truth that Jesus will come for His Church –all born-again believers—BEFORE the tribulation era –the last seven years of human history that culminates at Armageddon. These, who refuse to see two programs of God's dealing with mankind, Israel , and the Church --these two dovetailing into one magnificent prophetic culmination-- castigate us who believe that God deals with His creation called man dispensationally (the ages of Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, the Church, Tribulation, Millennium, etc.). Sometimes, it seems fruitless to try to break through the thick spiritual iron wills of these, in trying to present truth about the rapture. But, these are not the most troubling that seem to fit the 2 Peter 3: 3-4 description, so far as scoffing is concerned. The more concerning, to me, at least, are those who, despite being given, time after time, the same tremendously in-depth explanation from God's Word about the rapture and the truth that it will be a pre-trib one, continue to come to us with the same arguments to the contrary. This, despite the fact that they visit the Rapture Ready website, and can read more than 15,000 articles on matters of God's truth, many dealing specifically with eschatology. These are Christians who just seem to have it in their determination that they must go through –endure—the tribulation, the time about which Jesus foretold the following: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). The Tribulation, if we can imagine, will be worse than the concentration camps, torture chambers, crematoriums of Hitler, or the most terrible days of the inquisitions with all of the devilish methods of torture. Yet, there seems to be a need –they deludedly think—for some Christians to go through that time, during which Antichrist will do his dead-level best to kill every person who refuses to worship him. Anti-Rapture Example I've chosen one letter from such a Christian. It is a simple and mild letter; no mud-ball throwing. But, it represents the most troubling of all of the critics of the rapture of the Church, in my view. It is most troubling that these types think as they do, because it shows an almost willfulness against accepting God's promises, summed by this passage: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9). Here is what she wrote, in part: "I know that the Tribulation is going to be extremely bad and even worse than I can imagine but I sincerely believe I along with you and other Christians that are living at the time, will be going thru the bad. I am prepared mentally and will do whatever comes my way to either get thru or stand up and say no when needed. If I am one that is to [be] beheaded then so be it. I know GOD will be holding my hand and whatever comes my way, HE will see me thru. If I can be of any use to GOD to help save people then I am prepared to do as HE wants. I have many family members that are not believers now and pray daily that will change. I do believe that many souls will be saved. I know that I am a sinner and do not like verses of the Bible taken out of context. The whole book or at least the chapter needs to [be] read and understood not just a verse here and now to prove a theory that did not even come into being until a couple of hundred years ago. How is every eye going to see JESUS return if HE comes back in secret. Just don't believe any are going to be "raptured away". The Bible states that HEAVEN will be coming down here not us going up there." Tragic Misconceptions Unscriptural The Christian sister makes a number of statements of misconception that are dealt with through hundreds of the thousands of articles on the RR website. This is my problem. Many criticisms of us who hold to the pre-trib rapture are issued forth by those who obviously have never mined the rich resources available to them, before making their criticisms/argumentations. She writes that she is sure that she will be going through the tribulation, in order to stand for Christ and help God save people out of that horrendous time. She charges that she has disdain for those who twist Scripture out of context, with those (like us, I presume) using scattered and sporadic Scripture passages to make our points. She, at the same time, provides no Scripture for any of her criticisms of the rapture "theory," as she puts it. However, most who make this charge do so, using Scripture from Revelation that they declare shows saints in the middle of that time of Tribulation. Thus, they conclude, the Church is right there, taking the brunt of Antichrist's rage and God's wrath. Dispensational Discernment Required Indeed, believers will populate that era by the millions. It will, many who study that period believe, be a time of the greatest coming to Christ in the history of man. What the writer of this letter–and others—fail to recognize, or even consider, is that God deals with man, including His children, in dispensations. There are saints of the Church Age at present, and there will be saints during the tribulation. Neither will be together in the same dispensation. Jesus told us that He would build His church upon the gospel message the apostle Peter had just given, telling Jesus that he believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:17-18). Do you see that? The gates of hell –Satan—will not prevail against the Church. That's all about the Church Age saints. The Revelation tells quite another story for God's saints. The following Scripture is speaking, of course, about Satan's great tyrant, Antichrist, during the Tribulation era: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev. 13:7). The Church will not be "overcome" by Satan, because it won't be here. The tribulation saints (those who accept Christ after the rapture) will be overcome to a large extent –lose their physical lives for the cause of Christ. Myth-Making Against Rapture Our Christian critic-friend proves that she has at least done some study, but not from God's Word. She has read the books and literature of those who incessantly and speciously claim that we who believe in the pre-trib rapture have learned our "false" doctrine from a 19th-century witch, who somehow influenced John Darby to later perpetrate the hated rapture theory. The most ludicrous of the criticisms is that we base our view that there will be a rapture upon Margaret MacDonald's vision in the 1800s. It makes me almost nauseous to have to even address this –for the thousandth time, when, if the critics would just read what is already written on the subject on the site, it should quell their proclivity to make such ridiculous claims. But, I will briefly answer again, those who are so intellectually and spiritually lazy. The rapture, the "catching up" (harpazo) was revealed by Paul the apostle. It is a mystery he gave us through Holy Spirit inspiration, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18. The Rapture was not the concoction of John Darby, who picked up this teaching, and gave it improved order of presentation centuries after the doctrine was believed and taught by the early church fathers (first two centuries AD). The rapture isn't built on one or two verses, but on the entire body of Scripture. When viewed in totality, and in context, the doctrine flows with prophetic signals we observe occurring in the world today--i.e., the world isn't getting better and better as the "kingdom-now" people believe (that the Church will make the world better until Christ can return to set up His throne). The pre-trib rapture view puts forward that the world will grow worse and worse. The Church will be removed from earth, then God's judgment will begin to fall on rebellious earth-dwellers. Which do we see happening today? The world getting better and better –or- are things looking worse and worse for Planet Earth? Read the daily headlines, or watch the hourly news, and you will have your answer. Two Phases of Second Coming Again, Paul shows us the mystery --i.e., he reveals the mystery of the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-55. The mystery he is expanding upon is the wonderful promise Jesus made as shown in John 14: 1-3. Jesus is coming for us --before God's wrath must fall. A foreshadowing of that principle is seen in Genesis, chapter 19, when God said that He could do nothing in the way of sending judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was first removed. Lot represented the only righteousness God recognized. It was Lot 's faith --as puny as it was-- that kept him and the other few believers of his family from the time of God's wrath--again, Revelation 3:10. Our critic asks how all eyes can see Christ return, if He comes secretly in some rapture. She declares she just doesn't believe anyone is going to be raptured away, and she states Christ will be coming down to earth, not Christians going up to Him. Again, she, and those who fill her head with anti-rapture rhetoric fail to, or willfully refuse to, see God's dispensations in dealing with man. In the case of the return of Christ, Scripture makes it clear there are two separate returns. These are at least seven years apart, one from the other. Jesus will return at some unknown time in the rapture. Jesus, himself, likens that coming to a thief-in-the-night experience for those on earth. They won't know what has happened, and certainly won't see Christ. Paul says it is a moment in time when all believers (the Church) will meet Jesus in the air: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:16-17). Jesus will come the second time, following at least seven earth years, at the close of the tribulation era, known also as "Daniel's seventieth week." This time He will come all the way to the planet, and every eye will behold Him. There will be absolutely no doubt about this re-entry and landing: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Rev. 19:11-15). Scriptural Proof Required As stated before, each of these things intended to deny the validity and credence of pre-trib rapture are dealt with at great length, and in tremendous depth throughout the RR website. All opposing views are carefully dissected, and with Scripture given at every point along the way in addressing any and every question. But, it DOES take determined research to seek out truth found in the articles –truth that is God's Word, not merely ours. And, here is the main crux of this dear lady's problem in not discerning truth about Christ's coming for the Church –for her. She presents not one Scripture to back up any of her assertions, declarations, or suppositions/postulations. She simply parrots things critical of the rapture doctrine she has read or heard from those who mock, without anything of spiritual substance to back her/their criticisms. My intention is not to pick on her. I want only to used her method of criticism –a method used in almost every instance by those who listen to the anti-rapture crowd-- as an example to show there is no foundation to her/their argument/denial that the rapture is a doctrine taught in God's Word. This is our answer to such critics. Study the Word of God. Make your criticisms from His Word –as the dear woman says—not from just a Scripture here or there, but from the whole context of the matter, whatever the matter happens to be. I have studied most all of the positions and variations thereof involved in these arguments for decades --which gives away my age, I guess. The pre-trib view of prophecy yet future is absolutely the only one that makes sense in the totality of scriptural context, and in terms of what we see unfolding today in things of geopolitics, global socio-economics, and religion. Salvation – Rapture Inseparable The Rapture is an issue incontrovertibly linked to salvation --something Jesus did on the cross, which puts us in God's family when we truly believe. That faith keeps us from the time of God's wrath --both in the coming tribulation, and in eternity. Wrath and judgment must fall upon rebellious mankind, because of sin. Jesus paid the price for that sin. He said on the cross "It is finished." Sin was forever paid for at that moment, for those who would accept his sacrifice --the only sacrifice that God will accept --the precious blood of His Blessed Son. We are told we as Christians, while in the flesh, will have tribulations (troubles). Certainly Christians have had troubles down through the years. Persecutions --genocide, martyrdom, etc. These horrors are still happening in some places around the world. But, this was not, and is not, God's wrath and judgment, but was, and is, satanic rage against God's people. The tribulation will include satanic rage, but it will be within the horrific storm of God's wrath and judgment. Christians (those who have been --as our critic says-- saved following the rapture-- will certainly suffer satanic rage, but not God's wrath. Many will be martyred, as in the times of the early persecutions --like Christians are being martyred in some nations today. But, we are told that we (Paul denotes the difference between Christians of the Church Age and those who aren't in God's family by the use of pronouns) we aren't appointed to wrath, but to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are told by Paul to "comfort one another with these words"--not look to fear, but to comfort (read 1 Thess. 4:18, and 5:9-11). We will be kept out of "the time of testing (the apocalypse or tribulation), John was told by Jesus (Rev. 3:10). Rapture Ready or Not… Now, you might not agree, and that's fine. If you know Christ you are going instantly to Him anyway, when Jesus says "Come up hither," as He did to John in Revelation 4:1-2. You will have no other choice, if you are in God's family. But, please don't ever think --or claim--that there is only scattered verses here and there, or that there is no tremendously deep body of scriptural evidence and proofs beneath the truth of the pre-trib rapture. Again, you can disagree, but, please don't accuse us of not knowing about the other views, and, don't just blindly accept what opponents falsely say when they lie, proclaiming that we just believe in something a 19th-century Englishman said, or that we follow some woman who dabbled in the occult. That isn't true, and you should look more deeply into the evidence upon which we base these understandings, than just to take the word of those who make such shallow and deceptive accusations. Put this Scripture in a place you can memorize it –and make it your model truth for avoiding the pitfalls of intellectual and scriptural laziness: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).
The Rapture
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QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 24 2009, 07:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69820
This topic is for pro-rapture believes:Let's try something. This topic area will be for those members that believe in a rapture. Maybe if you post here and the No rapture members post in another Topic there will be less arguing.
Ugh, no debates? May I ask you a question? How things will get done like that, if we don't debate to get the Truth in?
This topic is for pro-rapture believes:Let's try something. This topic area will be for those members that believe in a rapture. Maybe if you post here and the No rapture members post in another Topic there will be less arguing.
Ugh, no debates? May I ask you a question? How things will get done like that, if we don't debate to get the Truth in?
tomwebster
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 24 2009, 07:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69822
Ugh, no debates? May I ask you a question? How things will get done like that, if we don't debate to get the Truth in?
Well, Jordan, How are things going so far. Are either one of you accomplishing anything? Answer: NO
Ugh, no debates? May I ask you a question? How things will get done like that, if we don't debate to get the Truth in?
Well, Jordan, How are things going so far. Are either one of you accomplishing anything? Answer: NO
shutin45,Thanks for sharing your article...it was very enlightning!! I started reading it...left and came back.. and it was gone. But I found it over here.
This is exactly why we closed the rapture discussions ........... THIS IS A BIBLE STUDY SITE NOT A DOCTINAL SITE IF YOU WANT TO PROVE RAPTURE YOU MUST USE SCRIPTURE NOT PRE POSTED TEACHING OF MEN YOU CAN FIND THOSE EVERYWHERE ON THE WEB WE DO NOT STUDY MEN NOR THE RELIGION NOR THEIR DOCTRINES IF YOU CANT PROVE YOU POINT IN GODS WITHOUT MENS COPY ARTICLES THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM..... nOW I DONT KNOW IF DENVER WILL DELETE THIS POST OR NOT BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THIS IS A FALSE DOCTRINE AND ALLOWING THESE COPY AND PASTE ARTICLES DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING ITS JUST ANOTHER MANS OPINION ............USE YOUR BIBLE IF YOU THINK GOD TEACHES THIS PROVE IT.You guy want pre posted articles I have plentyPRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS ! by Dave MacPherson Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief: 1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!) 1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib. A September article in "The Morning Watch" (Irvingite journal) saw the "Philadelphia" church raptured before a "period of great tribulation" and the "Laodicea" church left on earth. Huebner's "Precious Truths" claimed that Philadelphia was seen raptured before only the "seventh vial" and not before "the great tribulation" even though the article writer added twice on following pages that this "period" was indeed "the great tribulation"! In the previous (June) issue the same writer had seen Philadelphia on earth until the final posttrib advent. In between these two issues, TMW writers had visited Margaret who explained her new "revelation" which was soon reflected on TMW pages without giving her credit! In December a published article by Darby was still defending the posttrib view! 1833: British lawyer Robert Baxter, an ex-Irvingite, wrote that the pretrib "delusion first appeared in Scotland" before it began to be taught in London the following year. 1834: A Darby letter referred to the new pretrib rapture view, stated that "the thoughts are new," and advocated the subtle introduction of it by writing "it would not be well to have it so clear"! Darby also called it the "new wine." Others who knew that pretrib was then a new view included other Plymouth Brethren, Irvingites, Margaret, and later 19th century historians such as Margaret Oliphant who referred to "a new revelation" in 1830 in western Scotland where Margaret Macdonald lived. 1837: Years after Darby supposedly had derived a distinction (or separation) between the "church" and "Israel," his 1837 article saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews"! 1839: The first year Darby was clearly pretrib. His pretrib basis then (and during the next three decades) was Rev. 12:5's "man child" that is "caught up." But this "new" Darby teaching was actually a plagiarism of Edward Irving who had been using this verse for the same (pretrib) purpose since 1831! 1843: In a letter written from Switzerland, Darby referred to "the dissemination of truth and blessing...thus spreading on the right hand and on the left, without knowing whence it came or how it sprung up all of a sudden...." Here he gloated that others didn't know "whence" pretrib came or that he had advocated the subtle sneaking of the new pretrib view into existing groups (see "1834" above)! 1853: Darby's book "The Irrationalism of Infidelity" recalled his visit to Margaret Macdonald and her brothers in mid-1830. He remembered 23 minor details but carefully omitted the most important one: Margaret's teaching of a coming of Christ that would exempt believers from the great tribulation "judgments"----a detail that all others who visited her and then wrote accounts could easily remember! (It's obvious that Todd Strandberg's mother didn't soap his mouth enough because even though he knows better after the airing of "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" on the internet, his falsehood-packed "Margaret MacDonald Who?" article on his "Rapture Ready" site continues to pollute minds by stating that I "have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision"!) 1855: An article by eminent Brethren scholar S. P. Tregelles tied "Judaisers" to pretrib. But in an 1864 book he tied "Irving's Church" to pretrib. Both Huebner and Walvoord claimed that Tregelles contradicted himself, and Huebner charged Tregelles with "untruth and slander." But even William Kelly, Darby's editor, saw no contradiction and wrote, concerning "Judaising," that "nowhere is this so patent as in Irvingism"! 1861: Robert Norton, medical doctor and Irvingite, wrote that the "true origin" of pretrib had been "hidden and misrepresented." (This was about the time that Kelly was working towards the goal of elevating Darby and giving the false impression that Darby should be credited with the pretrib view.) Several pages later, in the same book, Norton revealed Margaret as the true originator of pretrib. 1863: In his "Five Letters" leading Brethren scholar Tregelles wrote that some Brethren had been unscrupulously issuing tracts by the thousands in which they changed the "words and doctrines" of "the Reformers and others" to give the impression that those ancient writers had actually been teaching the novel doctrines that some Darbyist Brethren were then circulating in the 1800's! 1864: Brethren scholar Tregelles charged fellow Brethren with changing even the words in ancient hymns: "Sometimes from a hymn being altered, writers appear to set forth a secret rapture of which they had never heard, or against which they have protested." I should add that in an 1865 letter Darby asked his editor to preserve the newer (pretrib) hymns and "correct the others," that is, the older (posttrib) ones! 1860's: From the 1860's to the 1880's William Kelly, editor of Darby's works, was busy putting together some volumes known as "The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby." Opposition to Darbyism had been increasing and Kelly was determined to fight it and continue to exalt Darby. His goal was to present a Darby that was prophetically "mature" long before he actually matured. He achieved this dishonesty with misleading words in brackets inside sentences in Darby's early works, and with footnotes that he "borrowed" from Darby's much later works when he was obviously more developed! Darby even gave this deviousness his blessing. In an 1865 letter to Kelly he wrote: "I should think that some of the Notes would require some revising....Even the sermons contain things I should not accept...." Kelly even flaunted his shameful manipulation in a footnote to Darby's 1830 article; the note said that "it was not worth while either suppressing or changing it." Interestingly, since the Irvingites were clear (and clearly first) when it came to public pretrib teaching, they didn't need later "fixers" to dishonestly correct their original statements! 1872: In an article in "The Princeton Review," Thomas Croskery of Ireland listed beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren including these: "That the moral law is of no use at all to believers" and "that believers have nothing to do in the way of keeping themselves from sin for God must look to them if He will...." He said that "Mr. Darby" pursues his opponents” with a virulence that has no parallel in the history of religious controversy." 1877: A medical doctor, James Carson, wrote that "the Darbyites have managed to cloak their opinions by using language in a Jesuitical sense...." He added: "Unless a person makes himself properly acquainted with the opinions" of Darbyites and argues "with the utmost precision on every point...it is impossible to manage such wily and slippery customers." 1879: A later work by Thomas Croskery declared that "Brethrenite doctrine...clearly tends to immorality." He then quoted Darby's editor, William Kelly, who stated: "I am no longer, as a Christian man, having to do with the responsibility that attaches to mortal man, but am passed now into a new state, even while I am in the world." Rev. Frederick Whitfield spoke of "the flagrant immoralities among the Plymouth Brethren" while James Grant commented: "Darbyism is the most selfish religious system with which I am acquainted." 1880: William Reid's work on Brethrenism revealed that "no other sect was, perhaps, ever so fruitful of divisions" and referred to "the novel doctrines propounded by some of its leaders." He quoted Lord Congleton, a leading Brethren member, who asked: "Have you tried these Brethren ----the Darbyites?....They are false in what they say of their brethren, they are false in doctrine, and they are false in their walk." And Henry Craik, a colleague of George Muller, was also quoted: "The truth is, Brethrenism as such, is broken to pieces. By pretending to be wiser, holier, more spiritual, more enlightened, than all other Christians; by rash and unprofitable intrusions into things not revealed; by making mysticism and eccentricity the test of spiritual life and depth; by preferring a dreamy and imaginative theology to the solid food of the Word of God...." (Leading Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon's 1967 book "The Origins of the Brethren," p. 253, quoted earlier Brethren member Lord Congleton who was "disgusted with...the falseness" of Darby's narratives. Rowdon also quoted a historian of the Brethren, W. B. Neatby, who wrote that "the time-honoured method of single combat" was as good a method as any "to elicit the truth" from Darby!) 1880's: In 1880, a year after his Christian conversion, C. I. Scofield was in the St. Louis jail for forgery because he'd stolen his mother-in-law's life savings in a real estate scam. In 1883 his first wife divorced him (for desertion) and he remarried three months later. Although he had no formal theological training, he began putting a non-conferred "D.D." after his name in the 1890's. In 1899, when he preached D. L. Moody's funeral sermon, he still owed thousands of dollars that he had stolen from acquaintances 20 years earlier. (In 1921 he advised his daughter, who then had financial problems, to pray to an ancient Catholic saint; at the same time his Scofield Bible, p. 1346, was predicting a future reign of "apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy"!) 1889: Aware that for 60 years the leading historians----whether Brethren or Irvingite----had been crediting someone in Irving's circle (and not Darby's circle!) with the pretrib rapture, Darby's editor William Kelly embarked on a sinister plan to discredit the Irvingites (and their female inspiration) and belatedly (and falsely) give credit for pretrib to Darby. He achieved this in 1889-1890 in a series of articles in his own British journal while analyzing the Irvingites in a supposedly fair and honest manner. Let's see a few of the many examples of his clever dishonesty: When quoting early Irvingites like Baxter and Norton, Kelly would consistently skip over their clear pretrib teaching but quote just before and after it! And he was a change artist. When Irvingites would write about their pretrib "rapture," Kelly loved to water it down into only their belief in the "Second Coming"! If the Irvingites expressed their belief in an imminent pretrib catching up, Kelly revised it into their "constantly to be expected Lord"! When Irving's followers hoped to escape, by rapture, the coming "tribulation," their "tribulation" was changed by Kelly into only "corrupt or apostate evils"! My 300-page book "The Rapture Plot" has 16 pages (!) of glaring specimens of short quotes exhibiting Kelly's shameful revisions of Irvingite doctrine! 1918: A prophetic book by E. P. Cachemaille discussed the pretrib origin, tied it to the 1830's, then added: "There has since been much scheming to give the doctrine a reputable origin, scheming by those who did not know the original facts, not being contemporaries of Dr. Tregelles." 1942: Noted prophecy teacher H. A. Ironside, who had a Brethren background, dared to assert, minus evidence, that what early Brethren taught re the rapture was "so contrary" to what the Irvingites had been teaching, adding that no links had existed between the two groups! 1960: After mentioning that the claim that Darby originated pretrib "is certainly open to question," evangelical scholar Clarence Bass wrote: "More probably, however, its origin can be traced through the Irvingite movement." But he failed to elaborate, evidently aware that he would be opening a can of you-know-what! 1973: Darby worshiper R. A. Huebner wrote that "The Irvingites (1828-1834) never held the pretribulation rapture or any 'any-moment' views." He was aware that many couldn't know how close he had repeatedly come to clear pretrib teaching by Irvingites and then had covered up everything while using the same devious tactics his inspiration William Kelly had used a century earlier while analyzing the same Irvingites! My "Plot" book has a 31-page chapter of many quotes from the earliest Irvingites showing that they repeatedly and clearly taught pretrib as well as imminence. For example, in 1832 the Irvingite journal said that "some" will be "left in the great tribulation...after the translation of the saints." We've already seen clear pretribism in the Sep., 1830 issue of the Irvingite journal. It's bad enough that Huebner (who never attended seminary, college, or even Bible school) has mind-poisoned his tiny circle of Darby-idolizers, but disastrous that pretrib leaders like Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, and Ice were apparently "too busy" to check Huebner's sources and later on too proud to admit they'd been taken in by him! The parallels between Huebner and his two inspirations, Darby and Kelly, are astounding. Like them, he easily applies "demon" to opponents and their beliefs. Like them, he exaggerates and even purposely muddies up Darby's earliest pretrib development and Darby's later reminiscences. And like them, he can deftly dance around pretrib "cobras" in Irvingism (and its female inspiration) without getting bitten! In his 1973 book, Huebner had 95 copying errors when quoting others including pretrib leaders! (For more shocks on the internet, type in "Humbug Huebner.") 1989: Thomas Ice, one of the biggest pretrib diehards, doesn't have favorites when he discusses the pretrib origin; he can use deviousness as well as sloppiness. When he reproduced Margaret's short "revelation" account he somehow left out 48 words! As if his carelessness wasn't bad enough, his reproduction also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his own reproduction of it in 1983----what Ice chose to do instead of going to the original 19th century sources! (See my internet piece "Thomas Ice - Hired Gun" if you are shockproof.) 1990: A year after his "rapture" of 48 words from Margaret's handwritten "revelation" account, Ice was elevated all the way up to Dallas Seminary's journal which published his article on pretrib history. In it he had some copying errors when quoting John Bray, Huebner, and Walvoord. Even worse, when he quoted the same Margaret Macdonald account, he skipped right over what he knew was her main point (a catching up of church members just before the Antichrist is revealed) even though he quoted shortly before and after it! And when quoting present-day Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon, he used an ellipsis to cover up Rowdon's evidence in his 1967 book that Irvingite development preceded Darby's! 1991: After many objective, no-axe-to-grind scholars had publicly endorsed my research (which emphasized Margaret, the Irvingites, and 1830), R. A. Huebner, aware of the same objective scholarship and determined to negate it, came out with a book in which he claimed to find Darby teaching pretrib in 1827----that is, three years before Margaret etc. But halfway through his book (which had more than 250 copying errors!), he admitted that his 1827 "proof" could refer to something completely different! Nevertheless, diehard Thomas Ice, after admitting to me that he was indeed aware of Huebner's change, continues to declare publicly that Huebner's 1991 book "proves" that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827! 1992: When Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" reproduced Margaret's short account, he "left behind" 48 words----the same 48 words that Ice had left out in 1989! In the same book LaHaye made 84 other copying errors when discussing pretrib beginnings! Although he had a whole chapter focusing on my origin research, un-scholar LaHaye didn't list any of my books in footnotes or bibliography which kept readers from being able to find out what I had actually written! And LaHaye based his analysis on inaccurate secondhand sources and also made many copying errors when quoting them. For many years Tim and Beverly LaHaye's "conservative" organizations have raked in millions of dollars while telling folks to vote for only "moral" political candidates, and while appearing to be very pro-family and anti-gay. What they haven't revealed is that their son Lee LaHaye has long been the Chief Financial Officer of Concerned Women for America and that Lee is openly gay ! Can we be sure that "Left Behind" Tim isn't just as hypocritical with his pro-pretrib stance? (If you're man or woman enough, warm up your computer and type in "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Tim LaHaye's gay son," "God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up," and "Thieves' Marketing"----for starters!) 2005: In the August "Pre-Trib Perspectives" Thomas Ice again had the audacity to claim that the late Prof. Paul Alexander saw a "pretribulational translation" in Pseudo-Ephraem's now famous Medieval sermon. But Ice has known since 1995 that Alexander's 1985 book has textual as well as outline summaries of P-E's chronological order of end time events----both summaries showing only one final coming of Christ that follows the great tribulation and not even a hint of a pretrib coming in either summary! Is it possible that Ice knows more than the professor whose book somehow inspired one of the desperate pretrib diehards? As Eph. 4:14 puts it, Ice knows how to "lie in wait to deceive." And lie and lie! (See my internet paper "Deceiving and Being Deceived" and discover the calculated dishonesty in the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims plus other dishonesty including massive plagiarism in some of today's leading pretrib diehards! Type in my name and see all of my internet items. Since Ice and LaHaye are associated with the Pre-Trib Research Center which has its own site, you may feel inspired to write them, ask them some blunt questions, and even send them a copy of this paper.) PS - You can win $1000.00 if you can prove that I have ever covered up or watered down any crucial aspect of pretrib rapture history! If you would like to obtain my No. 1 book on pretrib history entitled "The Rapture Plot" which expands the info in this paper and has much other documentation, call
Thats funny! I used scriptures and you closed it anyway! Well I am glad I got to read it before they delete it!
Rapture?Those who teach the rapture most often quote 1 Thessalonians chapter 4:16-17. In this study, we are going to examine 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. There we will learn that the first letter had caused some confusion among the Thessalonians. Many had come to the conclusion that Christ could return at any moment to gather His church. Paul strongly refutes this in the second letter, and he will tell us exactly what we should look for before we can expect Christ to return. The rapture will not stand against these teachings. In order to protect their doctrine, those who teach the rapture have tweaked these scriptures to align with their teachings. We will show you where this is done and prove to you that they are deceiving you, whether intentional or not. On that same note, we will read where God warns us against teachers like these, and even against the rapture doctrine itself. God knew this would happen and He has provided us with the knowledge to overcome false teachers.2 Thessalonians Chapter 21) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Paul is going to talk to us about the return of Jesus, and our gathering back to Him. He says, don't be troubled or doubtful, due to a (deceiving) spirit, some other teaching, or any letter we have written you (the first letter), as that the day of Christ is at hand. The day of Christ is not at hand, it will not happen, until the events are fulfilled that we will read about in the next verse.3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Paul makes it very clear that the day of Christ will not come, until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed. Now how could any reasonable person read this and say that nothing has to happen before Christ returns? This is one of the places were teachers have taken a great liberty with the word. Some will tell you that this falling away is the rapture of the church. This is absolutely not true and can be easily disproven. If you have a Strong's Concordance you can look up this word falling, #646 apostasia:, it means deflection from the truth. If you have been taught this is the rapture, then you have been deceived. It actually means apostasy, which is to abandon one's religion. This is being fulfilled right now, in fact those who teach this are fulfilling it.The second event that has to occur before that day, is the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition. To understand who this is we must examine both titles. We know that sin entered into the world when Eve was beguiled by the serpent, which is Satan, and took of the tree of knowledge, Genesis 3:6. So if sin entered into the world as a result of the deception of Satan, wouldn't it make sense if he was called the man of sin? The other title, "the son of perdition", #684 in the Greek, means to perish or die. Only one entity, (by name), has been sentenced to death by God at this time. Our (eternal) judgment, will not come until the white throne judgment in Rev. 20:11-12. You can read where God sentenced Satan to death in Eze. 28:13-19.Now that we know who this is, we need to find out at what time he is revealed. As verse 3 plainly states, that day is not coming until he is revealed. Now in order to reveal something, it has to have been hidden. I have maintained throughout the studies on this site, that the antichrist will come to the earth playing Jesus. This is why it is hidden, and this is how he is able to deceive so many. In Rev. 12:9, it says he will deceive the whole world. If he was immediately revealed at the point he is thrown out of heaven, he wouldn't deceive anyone. Of course some would willingly follow him, but how many could he apostatize, that is, how many Christians would abandon Christ, to worship him. I dare say very few, but by playing Christ, and very well I might add, he will deceive them and they won't even know who they are worshipping. Rev. chapter 16 gives you the 7 vials, which are the seventh trump. There you will find, the vials are judgments from God upon the beast and his followers. Many that teach the rapture like to say God hath not appointed us to wrath, and for this reason the rapture is a valid teaching. Well, the tribulation can be broken down into two parts. The first part is the tribulation by Satan, and the second beginning with the seventh trump, is the tribulation by God. The tribulation by God is only for the beast and his followers. It is during this period of the seventh trump that Satan will be revealed for who he truly is. All those that followed him will be receiving these plagues, and there will be no doubt that they are not in good standing with God. They will realize they have been duped and the whole world will know he is a fake. After this, and only after this, does Christ return to reign on the earth. Every verse that deals with the return of Christ, has to do with His returning to reign on the earth. All you need do is take the time to read them in context.2 Thessalonians Chapter 24) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.This verse clearly states the son of perdition will portray himself as God. This is how he deceives the whole world. It's not complicated, it's not made up, it's simply what the Word of God tells us. What is the temple of God? Is it not the body of Christ, the church? He will stand in the midst of them, making this claim, and sadly many will believe him.6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.In order to understand this verse we need to understand who or what is being referred to. The word withholdeth, means "holds fast", and the he is Satan, as we learned from verse 3. So this should read "now ye know what holds fast that the man of sin, the son of perdition, might be revealed in his time". I know those who teach the rapture say the church is the what, that is holding fast in this verse. This is incorrect, the Greek word that is translated "what", which acts like an English pronoun, is #3588, and it is singular and neutral. Meaning it can only be speaking of a place and not a person or people. If we go to Rev. 12:7, we find that that the beast rises out of the bottomless pit. So this has to be the what that is holding him. We also find, that before Satan comes to the earth as antichrist, there is war in heaven, and he is kicked out of heaven by Michael. No place is found in heaven for him anymore. We can easily draw from these verses that Satan is being kept in a bottomless pit somewhere in heaven.7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.We have just covered the what, now we will clarify who is holding Satan. The he that is holding fast, "letteth" in this verse, can only be Michael. Since it is Michael which casts him to the earth, it must be Michael who is holding him. It makes no sense to say the church is holding Satan, it's clear Satan is being held in a bottomless pit. To say that this is spiritual makes no sense either because his spirit is already at work on the earth (iniquity doth already work). If we can't hold his spirit from working on the earth, how can we hold him de facto from coming to the earth? This business about the church being the great restrainers will not hold water.8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:The one that holds fast, Michael, will hold fast, to Satan, until he (Michael), is taken out of the way. Then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Satan), whom the Lord shall consume and destroy. Why is Satan revealed after (Michael) is taken out of the way? Once Michael stops holding him, he makes his way to the earth, and at the seventh trump, God's judgments make it clear he is a fake. Deception is receiving him as Christ, when you receive the rapture as truth you are in danger of receiving the antichrist as Christ. The antichrist comes first, be ready!9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.Notice those who perish do so because of a lack of truth, not because they didn't want to, but because they were deceived into believing a lie. Don't be one of those, this is not hard. Let the Bible be your authority and not man. This is the great falling away - the deflection from the truth, (apostasy), we read about in verse 3.11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:God will send those who would not receive the truth strong delusion, in the form of the antichrist. This is the lie, he's coming playing God and many have been taught that Christ comes first. This makes it really easy, much of the deception is already here, iniquity is already working.12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousnessThe last place we will go is Ezekiel chapter 13. This chapter is about false teachers and how they make up their own salvation rather than teaching God's word. That is what the rapture is doing today. The doctrine that is being discussed in these verses will line up perfectly with what the rapture teaches, and in my opinion it is the rapture. You can decide for yourself. We will only cover a few verses but I urge you to read the whole chapter.Ezekiel 1318) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?What we have here is very interesting. This sew pillows to all armholes and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature, simply means a one size fits all doctrine. For instance they may say "All you have to do is believe". God expects more from you than that. In the book of James 2:19 we are told even the devils believe and tremble. You want to do more for God than that don't you? God says "You are preying upon my people by teaching lies" and furthermore He asks, can you save my people with your manmade religion?19) And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? These teachers are polluting God's truth for payment. If you tell people what they want to hear, they will likely keep coming back again and again. That's a steady flow of money. They are condemning those who are of a pure heart and those who are hypocrites believe they are saved.20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. These pillows are covering up the truth and polluting the word of God. This is the rapture foreseen by God and He is warning them, as well as you, don't teach it and don't believe it. I'm sure you have heard hymns about flying away, coincidence? God is very good to us and he will tear away the lies and deception during the millennium. At that time, we will have one church, instead of numerous denominations, and false doctrines like the rapture. We can do better right now though, if we pray for knowledge, and listen to God's word instead of man. I hope you enjoyed this study. God Bless!
QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 24 2009, 07:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69838
I'm getting a little confused here am I on a rapture thread or a no rapture thread????
THERE WILL NEVER BE A RAPTURE THREAD ON THIS SITE THAT WILL NOT BE ARGUED RAPRURE IS A MANS DOCTRINE NOT GODS WORD AND IT WILL NEVER GO UNADDRESSED. tHAT WOULD BE FUTHERING DECEPTION OF THE END TIMES TALKED OF IN AMOS 8:11 ALLOWING PEOPLE TO SPREAD THIS LIE OF MEN UNOPPOSED WILL NEVER HAPPEN HEREYOU KNOW OUR POSTION ON THIS THIS ....WE ARE A NON RAPTURE SITE WE ALLOW IT ONLY TO SHOW IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE.
I'm getting a little confused here am I on a rapture thread or a no rapture thread????
THERE WILL NEVER BE A RAPTURE THREAD ON THIS SITE THAT WILL NOT BE ARGUED RAPRURE IS A MANS DOCTRINE NOT GODS WORD AND IT WILL NEVER GO UNADDRESSED. tHAT WOULD BE FUTHERING DECEPTION OF THE END TIMES TALKED OF IN AMOS 8:11 ALLOWING PEOPLE TO SPREAD THIS LIE OF MEN UNOPPOSED WILL NEVER HAPPEN HEREYOU KNOW OUR POSTION ON THIS THIS ....WE ARE A NON RAPTURE SITE WE ALLOW IT ONLY TO SHOW IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE.
Who will win? God or the Rapture? Let's find out.Matthew 24:29-30 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Mark 13:24-26 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.I Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.I Thessalonians 4:16-17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Revelation 11:15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 24 2009, 09:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69831
Thats funny! I used scriptures and you closed it anyway! Well I am glad I got to read it before they delete it!
It is impossible to prove the pretrib rapture using scripture
Thats funny! I used scriptures and you closed it anyway! Well I am glad I got to read it before they delete it!
It is impossible to prove the pretrib rapture using scripture
I sat down at my computer shaken by what I've just read in Scripture, and was about to comment on it. When I read all this though, I had to address it:Christina wrote:This is exactly why we closed the rapture discussions ........... THIS IS A BIBLE STUDY SITE NOT A DOCTINAL SITE IF YOU WANT TO PROVE RAPTURE YOU MUST USE SCRIPTURE NOT PRE POSTED TEACHING OF MEN YOU CAN FIND THOSE EVERYWHERE ON THE WEB WE DO NOT STUDY MEN NOR THE RELIGION NOR THEIR DOCTRINES IF YOU CANT PROVE YOU POINT IN GODS WITHOUT MENS COPY ARTICLES THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM..... nOW I DONT KNOW IF DENVER WILL DELETE THIS POST OR NOT BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THIS IS A FALSE DOCTRINE AND ALLOWING THESE COPY AND PASTE ARTICLES DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING ITS JUST ANOTHER MANS OPINION ............USE YOUR BIBLE IF YOU THINK GOD TEACHES THIS PROVE IT.We ARE studying the Bible here to get to the Truth. I see a plethora of Scriptures in almost every post regardless of trib perspective.People who have a pre-trib rapture perspective - right or wrong - do have Scripture that supports their views. Using no more interpretation than post-trib believers for their supportive Scriptures, Verses like Matthew 24:40 and 41, among many others can be used to support a pre-trib belief. I'm not "studying men" either, but if Billy Graham had written an article on something pertinent and given supporting Verses, and there was good information in the article, it shouldn't be posted? We're limited here to only what those posting (often further limited to those who aren't too scared to post) see in Scripture and have revealed to them? That may be what's intended, but it limits Bible Study and discussion. The pre-posted "teachings of men" which usually has supportive Scripture for each point, is NO different than the written "words of men" posted here with supporting Verses. So, by the same logic, what's written here doesn't prove anything either since it's just "another mans opinion". I'll prove the rapture using my Bibles, and the words of Jesus: [sup]30[/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Why are tribes mourning? Because some are not happy with His coming. Then: [sup]31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. When He gathers together His elect - Christians - that's what's called the rapture. To many Christians it's not a doctrine, but a noun used for the event. We (or whoever coined the term) could just as easily call it "the gathering" or "the taking away". The word rapture was chosen and began being used. The word doctrine just means a set of beliefs or things that are taught. So, while calling the rapture a doctrine is okay, almost ANYTHING can be called doctrine.The ones who were mourning - not His elect - in Verse 30 aren't "gathered together". Where do they go or stay? What's next for them?So, believing Christians will be gathered/taken away/raptured is a false doctrine? The words of Jesus - the Son of God - from the Bible, say it will happen. Is that not proof that God teaches it? There are many other Verses that speak of the "taking away" also.I'll close with Verses from Romans Chapter 14. Whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib is not like not believing in Baptism, the Resurrection, or some other such major thing. They aren't complicated verses that require much interpretation either. Not my words either. Words from God through Paul that address how to handle minor "doctrine" or belief differences. Sure, one is correct and one isn't, but read how to deal with it:Romans 14 [sup]1[/sup]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [sup]2[/sup]For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. [sup]3[/sup]Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [sup]4[/sup]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. [sup]5[/sup]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [sup]6[/sup]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. [sup]7[/sup]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. [sup]8[/sup]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [sup]9[/sup]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [sup]10[/sup]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [sup]11[/sup]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [sup]12[/sup]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [sup]13[/sup]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [sup]14[/sup]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [sup]15[/sup]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [sup]16[/sup]Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [sup]17[/sup]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [sup]18[/sup]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [sup]19[/sup]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. I logged on to write something entirely different, but ended up writing what I feel needed to be said (AND I referenced applicable supportive Scripture). What I logged on to write is far less important.
QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 24 2009, 09:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69866
I sat down at my computer shaken by what I've just read in Scripture, and was about to comment on it. When I read all this though, I had to address it:Christina wrote:This is exactly why we closed the rapture discussions ........... THIS IS A BIBLE STUDY SITE NOT A DOCTINAL SITE IF YOU WANT TO PROVE RAPTURE YOU MUST USE SCRIPTURE NOT PRE POSTED TEACHING OF MEN YOU CAN FIND THOSE EVERYWHERE ON THE WEB WE DO NOT STUDY MEN NOR THE RELIGION NOR THEIR DOCTRINES IF YOU CANT PROVE YOU POINT IN GODS WITHOUT MENS COPY ARTICLES THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM..... nOW I DONT KNOW IF DENVER WILL DELETE THIS POST OR NOT BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THIS IS A FALSE DOCTRINE AND ALLOWING THESE COPY AND PASTE ARTICLES DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING ITS JUST ANOTHER MANS OPINION ............USE YOUR BIBLE IF YOU THINK GOD TEACHES THIS PROVE IT.We ARE studying the Bible here to get to the Truth. I see a plethora of Scriptures in almost every post regardless of trib perspective.People who have a pre-trib rapture perspective - right or wrong - do have Scripture that supports their views. Using no more interpretation than post-trib believers for their supportive Scriptures, Verses like Matthew 24:40 and 41, among many others can be used to support a pre-trib belief. I'm not "studying men" either, but if Billy Graham had written an article on something pertinent and given supporting Verses, and there was good information in the article, it shouldn't be posted? We're limited here to only what those posting (often further limited to those who aren't too scared to post) see in Scripture and have revealed to them? That may be what's intended, but it limits Bible Study and discussion. The pre-posted "teachings of men" which usually has supportive Scripture for each point, is NO different than the written "words of men" posted here with supporting Verses. So, by the same logic, what's written here doesn't prove anything either since it's just "another mans opinion". I'll prove the rapture using my Bibles, and the words of Jesus: [sup]30[/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Why are tribes mourning? Because some are not happy with His coming. Then: [sup]31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. When He gathers together His elect - Christians - that's what's called the rapture. To many Christians it's not a doctrine, but a noun used for the event. We (or whoever coined the term) could just as easily call it "the gathering" or "the taking away". The word rapture was chosen and began being used. The word doctrine just means a set of beliefs or things that are taught. So, while calling the rapture a doctrine is okay, almost ANYTHING can be called doctrine.The ones who were mourning - not His elect - in Verse 30 aren't "gathered together". Where do they go or stay? What's next for them?So, believing Christians will be gathered/taken away/raptured is a false doctrine? The words of Jesus - the Son of God - from the Bible, say it will happen. Is that not proof that God teaches it? There are many other Verses that speak of the "taking away" also.I'll close with Verses from Romans Chapter 14. Whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib is not like not believing in Baptism, the Resurrection, or some other such major thing. They aren't complicated verses that require much interpretation either. Not my words either. Words from God through Paul that address how to handle minor "doctrine" or belief differences. Sure, one is correct and one isn't, but read how to deal with it:Romans 14 [sup]1[/sup]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [sup]2[/sup]For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. [sup]3[/sup]Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [sup]4[/sup]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. [sup]5[/sup]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [sup]6[/sup]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. [sup]7[/sup]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. [sup]8[/sup]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [sup]9[/sup]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [sup]10[/sup]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [sup]11[/sup]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [sup]12[/sup]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [sup]13[/sup]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [sup]14[/sup]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [sup]15[/sup]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [sup]16[/sup]Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [sup]17[/sup]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [sup]18[/sup]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [sup]19[/sup]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. I logged on to write something entirely different, but ended up writing what I feel needed to be said (AND I referenced applicable supportive Scripture). What I logged on to write is far less important.
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
I sat down at my computer shaken by what I've just read in Scripture, and was about to comment on it. When I read all this though, I had to address it:Christina wrote:This is exactly why we closed the rapture discussions ........... THIS IS A BIBLE STUDY SITE NOT A DOCTINAL SITE IF YOU WANT TO PROVE RAPTURE YOU MUST USE SCRIPTURE NOT PRE POSTED TEACHING OF MEN YOU CAN FIND THOSE EVERYWHERE ON THE WEB WE DO NOT STUDY MEN NOR THE RELIGION NOR THEIR DOCTRINES IF YOU CANT PROVE YOU POINT IN GODS WITHOUT MENS COPY ARTICLES THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM..... nOW I DONT KNOW IF DENVER WILL DELETE THIS POST OR NOT BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THIS IS A FALSE DOCTRINE AND ALLOWING THESE COPY AND PASTE ARTICLES DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING ITS JUST ANOTHER MANS OPINION ............USE YOUR BIBLE IF YOU THINK GOD TEACHES THIS PROVE IT.We ARE studying the Bible here to get to the Truth. I see a plethora of Scriptures in almost every post regardless of trib perspective.People who have a pre-trib rapture perspective - right or wrong - do have Scripture that supports their views. Using no more interpretation than post-trib believers for their supportive Scriptures, Verses like Matthew 24:40 and 41, among many others can be used to support a pre-trib belief. I'm not "studying men" either, but if Billy Graham had written an article on something pertinent and given supporting Verses, and there was good information in the article, it shouldn't be posted? We're limited here to only what those posting (often further limited to those who aren't too scared to post) see in Scripture and have revealed to them? That may be what's intended, but it limits Bible Study and discussion. The pre-posted "teachings of men" which usually has supportive Scripture for each point, is NO different than the written "words of men" posted here with supporting Verses. So, by the same logic, what's written here doesn't prove anything either since it's just "another mans opinion". I'll prove the rapture using my Bibles, and the words of Jesus: [sup]30[/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Why are tribes mourning? Because some are not happy with His coming. Then: [sup]31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. When He gathers together His elect - Christians - that's what's called the rapture. To many Christians it's not a doctrine, but a noun used for the event. We (or whoever coined the term) could just as easily call it "the gathering" or "the taking away". The word rapture was chosen and began being used. The word doctrine just means a set of beliefs or things that are taught. So, while calling the rapture a doctrine is okay, almost ANYTHING can be called doctrine.The ones who were mourning - not His elect - in Verse 30 aren't "gathered together". Where do they go or stay? What's next for them?So, believing Christians will be gathered/taken away/raptured is a false doctrine? The words of Jesus - the Son of God - from the Bible, say it will happen. Is that not proof that God teaches it? There are many other Verses that speak of the "taking away" also.I'll close with Verses from Romans Chapter 14. Whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib is not like not believing in Baptism, the Resurrection, or some other such major thing. They aren't complicated verses that require much interpretation either. Not my words either. Words from God through Paul that address how to handle minor "doctrine" or belief differences. Sure, one is correct and one isn't, but read how to deal with it:Romans 14 [sup]1[/sup]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [sup]2[/sup]For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. [sup]3[/sup]Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [sup]4[/sup]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. [sup]5[/sup]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [sup]6[/sup]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. [sup]7[/sup]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. [sup]8[/sup]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [sup]9[/sup]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [sup]10[/sup]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [sup]11[/sup]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [sup]12[/sup]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [sup]13[/sup]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [sup]14[/sup]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [sup]15[/sup]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [sup]16[/sup]Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [sup]17[/sup]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [sup]18[/sup]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [sup]19[/sup]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. I logged on to write something entirely different, but ended up writing what I feel needed to be said (AND I referenced applicable supportive Scripture). What I logged on to write is far less important.
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
I have been researching the word "MYSTERY" since Denver brought it up on the rapture thread that was closed. It is a very interesting word...could be a clue to solving the rapture/no rapture teaching. When I am finished, I will post it. But I encourage all to research it and see what the "MYSTERY" is.....and how it fits in to the end time!
tomwebster
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QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 25 2009, 07:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69871
I have been researching the word "MYSTERY" since Denver brought it up on the rapture thread that was closed. It is a very interesting word...could be a clue to solving the rapture/no rapture teaching. When I am finished, I will post it. But I encourage all to research it and see what the "MYSTERY" is.....and how it fits in to the end time!
Setfree, I have been looking for the post where Denver mentioned "mystery" although I think I remember seeing it. Would you tell me the post # so I can see the context in which "mystery" was used. Thanks.
I have been researching the word "MYSTERY" since Denver brought it up on the rapture thread that was closed. It is a very interesting word...could be a clue to solving the rapture/no rapture teaching. When I am finished, I will post it. But I encourage all to research it and see what the "MYSTERY" is.....and how it fits in to the end time!
Setfree, I have been looking for the post where Denver mentioned "mystery" although I think I remember seeing it. Would you tell me the post # so I can see the context in which "mystery" was used. Thanks.
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 25 2009, 12:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69884
Setfree, I have been looking for the post where Denver mentioned "mystery" although I think I remember seeing it. Would you tell me the post # so I can see the context in which "mystery" was used. Thanks.
It is #97 in the rapture thread that was closed. He also brought it up again in the "mystery" thread.
Setfree, I have been looking for the post where Denver mentioned "mystery" although I think I remember seeing it. Would you tell me the post # so I can see the context in which "mystery" was used. Thanks.
It is #97 in the rapture thread that was closed. He also brought it up again in the "mystery" thread.
QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 25 2009, 05:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69871
I have been researching the word "MYSTERY" since Denver brought it up on the rapture thread that was closed. It is a very interesting word...could be a clue to solving the rapture/no rapture teaching. When I am finished, I will post it. But I encourage all to research it and see what the "MYSTERY" is.....and how it fits in to the end time!
He was connecting it to 1 Cor. and Rev. there is no rapture teaching in scripture to clear up.
I have been researching the word "MYSTERY" since Denver brought it up on the rapture thread that was closed. It is a very interesting word...could be a clue to solving the rapture/no rapture teaching. When I am finished, I will post it. But I encourage all to research it and see what the "MYSTERY" is.....and how it fits in to the end time!
He was connecting it to 1 Cor. and Rev. there is no rapture teaching in scripture to clear up.
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 25 2009, 12:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69869
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
This is so strange. It seems so easy to understand and convey to others. What am I doing wrong?I'm ONLY talking about the rapture in the following: Christians at SOME point in time will be taken up, gathered together. Commonly referred to as the Rapture. Again, pre-post trib NOT being addressed here.The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but is taken from the greek word "rapio" which means "to be caught away" or "a snatching away". That's ALL I'm talking about here.Following are various Verses that obviously support the RAPTURE clearly and without interpretation:[sup]Matthew 24:31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[sup][/sup] Matthew 24:40[sup][/sup][sup][/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. I Thessalonians 4:17 and 18 [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If we don't believe we going to be "caught up together" - raptured - how can we comfort one another with those words??[sup]Mark 13:27[/sup]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.So, it's unquestionably Biblical, and those are some of the Verses that support it. I have seen NO Verses that say we will not be taken away, so there's no contradiction. I would sincerely love - in pursuit of the Truth - to hear of any I'm unaware of.Isn't it probable that there are contradictions causing the different beliefs addressed in Romans 14? Does God via Paul warn there that the one in the wrong is calling Him a liar? Or is that guidance because there will be conflicts based on innocent well-meaning interpretations of Scripture by Christians? The hurtful disputations we cause when we fail to follow Gods guidance on handling MINOR different beliefs has opened the door for evil to cause dissension and strife among Christians throughout history. It's what led to or contributed to the different Christian religions.That's it on proving the rapture is Biblical and another exhortation to obey Gods guidance in handling belief differences, "contradictions" or not. I'll close with Verses from James Chapter 3: [sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. [sup]2[/sup]For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. [sup]3[/sup]Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. [sup]4[/sup]Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. [sup]5[/sup]Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! [sup]6[/sup]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [sup]7[/sup]For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: [sup]8[/sup]But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [sup]9[/sup]Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [sup]10[/sup]Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. [sup]11[/sup]Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [sup]12[/sup]Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. [sup]13[/sup]Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [sup]14[/sup]But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [sup]15[/sup]This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [sup]16[/sup]For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [sup]17[/sup]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [sup]18[/sup]And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Written with love and the intent of learning and sharing the Truth
,Jim
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
This is so strange. It seems so easy to understand and convey to others. What am I doing wrong?I'm ONLY talking about the rapture in the following: Christians at SOME point in time will be taken up, gathered together. Commonly referred to as the Rapture. Again, pre-post trib NOT being addressed here.The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but is taken from the greek word "rapio" which means "to be caught away" or "a snatching away". That's ALL I'm talking about here.Following are various Verses that obviously support the RAPTURE clearly and without interpretation:[sup]Matthew 24:31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[sup][/sup] Matthew 24:40[sup][/sup][sup][/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. I Thessalonians 4:17 and 18 [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If we don't believe we going to be "caught up together" - raptured - how can we comfort one another with those words??[sup]Mark 13:27[/sup]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.So, it's unquestionably Biblical, and those are some of the Verses that support it. I have seen NO Verses that say we will not be taken away, so there's no contradiction. I would sincerely love - in pursuit of the Truth - to hear of any I'm unaware of.Isn't it probable that there are contradictions causing the different beliefs addressed in Romans 14? Does God via Paul warn there that the one in the wrong is calling Him a liar? Or is that guidance because there will be conflicts based on innocent well-meaning interpretations of Scripture by Christians? The hurtful disputations we cause when we fail to follow Gods guidance on handling MINOR different beliefs has opened the door for evil to cause dissension and strife among Christians throughout history. It's what led to or contributed to the different Christian religions.That's it on proving the rapture is Biblical and another exhortation to obey Gods guidance in handling belief differences, "contradictions" or not. I'll close with Verses from James Chapter 3: [sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. [sup]2[/sup]For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. [sup]3[/sup]Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. [sup]4[/sup]Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. [sup]5[/sup]Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! [sup]6[/sup]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [sup]7[/sup]For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: [sup]8[/sup]But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [sup]9[/sup]Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [sup]10[/sup]Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. [sup]11[/sup]Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [sup]12[/sup]Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. [sup]13[/sup]Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [sup]14[/sup]But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [sup]15[/sup]This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [sup]16[/sup]For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [sup]17[/sup]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [sup]18[/sup]And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Written with love and the intent of learning and sharing the Truth
We do understand but what we are saying that you are not getting is God does say when HE RETURNS FOR US AFTER AFTER AFTER the antichrist at the last trump when he the true Christ arrives .... But What we are saying is that there is No RAPTURE before the tribulation So Christians must learn about the tribulation so they know what is going to happen so they are not fooled by Satan's deception The Pre -Trib people say you do not need to learn your Fathers Word about the tribulation because you will be Gone Satan loves this because if Gods children do not know what to expect he can win their soul ... This is why a Pre trib Rapture is so dangerous and no Pre trib Rapture is taught ... One second coming at the End last 7th trumpITS THE TIMING GOD GIVES US THE TIME OF HIS COMING THE PRE-TRIB CONTRDICTS GODS WORD ON THE TIMING SAYING HE COMES A THIRD TIME SECRETLY THIS IS WHAT THE RAPTURE THEORY IS ITS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE WORD OF GOD
QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 25 2009, 01:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69895
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 24 2009, 11:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69869
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
This is so strange. It seems so easy to understand and convey to others. What am I doing wrong?I'm ONLY talking about the rapture in the following: Christians at SOME point in time will be taken up, gathered together. Commonly referred to as the Rapture. Again, pre-post trib NOT being addressed here.The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but is taken from the greek word "rapio" which means "to be caught away" or "a snatching away". That's ALL I'm talking about here.Following are various Verses that obviously support the RAPTURE clearly and without interpretation:[sup]Matthew 24:31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[sup][/sup] Matthew 24:40[sup][/sup][sup][/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. I Thessalonians 4:17 and 18 [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If we don't believe we going to be "caught up together" - raptured - how can we comfort one another with those words??[sup]Mark 13:27[/sup]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.So, it's unquestionably Biblical, and those are some of the Verses that support it. I have seen NO Verses that say we will not be taken away, so there's no contradiction. I would sincerely love - in pursuit of the Truth - to hear of any I'm unaware of.Isn't it probable that there are contradictions causing the different beliefs addressed in Romans 14? Does God via Paul warn there that the one in the wrong is calling Him a liar? Or is that guidance because there will be conflicts based on innocent well-meaning interpretations of Scripture by Christians? The hurtful disputations we cause when we fail to follow Gods guidance on handling MINOR different beliefs has opened the door for evil to cause dissension and strife among Christians throughout history. It's what led to or contributed to the different Christian religions.That's it on proving the rapture is Biblical and another exhortation to obey Gods guidance in handling belief differences, "contradictions" or not. I'll close with Verses from James Chapter 3: [sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. [sup]2[/sup]For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. [sup]3[/sup]Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. [sup]4[/sup]Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. [sup]5[/sup]Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! [sup]6[/sup]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [sup]7[/sup]For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: [sup]8[/sup]But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [sup]9[/sup]Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [sup]10[/sup]Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. [sup]11[/sup]Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [sup]12[/sup]Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. [sup]13[/sup]Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [sup]14[/sup]But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [sup]15[/sup]This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [sup]16[/sup]For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [sup]17[/sup]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [sup]18[/sup]And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Written with love and the intent of learning and sharing the Truth
,JimActually, there is no Greek word rapio in the bible. The Greek word for "caught up" is HARPAZO!726. harpazo har-pad'-zo from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). We are going to be forced back into our spiritual body. We are not literally going to be in the air.
QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 24 2009, 11:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69869
Thats the point whether you believe in Rapture ot not its called a THE RAPTURE THEROY because it is not written in scripture men have found a few scripture they say imply it ...but thats what they say about Evolution they can not prove but it sounds good and there are some things that could imply it .... Pre trib-Rapture can not be proved in scripture those are the facts ... It can only be said to possiably be implied but our/my view is that because Gods word is all inspired by God it is perfect there are no major contradictions it fits like a perfect puzzzle once you start saying its OK to cause a condradiction ...because the Bible is wrong You have a major problem in my view ...We can not cause a contradiction to make Gods Word fit mans opinions/belifs reguardless of the topic and this is what Rapture does we have to ignore scripture saying the oppisite is true to make it work IMHO that equates to us having to call God a liar ... And Im not OK with that ...
This is so strange. It seems so easy to understand and convey to others. What am I doing wrong?I'm ONLY talking about the rapture in the following: Christians at SOME point in time will be taken up, gathered together. Commonly referred to as the Rapture. Again, pre-post trib NOT being addressed here.The word "rapture" is not in the Bible but is taken from the greek word "rapio" which means "to be caught away" or "a snatching away". That's ALL I'm talking about here.Following are various Verses that obviously support the RAPTURE clearly and without interpretation:[sup]Matthew 24:31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[sup][/sup] Matthew 24:40[sup][/sup][sup][/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. I Thessalonians 4:17 and 18 [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.If we don't believe we going to be "caught up together" - raptured - how can we comfort one another with those words??[sup]Mark 13:27[/sup]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.So, it's unquestionably Biblical, and those are some of the Verses that support it. I have seen NO Verses that say we will not be taken away, so there's no contradiction. I would sincerely love - in pursuit of the Truth - to hear of any I'm unaware of.Isn't it probable that there are contradictions causing the different beliefs addressed in Romans 14? Does God via Paul warn there that the one in the wrong is calling Him a liar? Or is that guidance because there will be conflicts based on innocent well-meaning interpretations of Scripture by Christians? The hurtful disputations we cause when we fail to follow Gods guidance on handling MINOR different beliefs has opened the door for evil to cause dissension and strife among Christians throughout history. It's what led to or contributed to the different Christian religions.That's it on proving the rapture is Biblical and another exhortation to obey Gods guidance in handling belief differences, "contradictions" or not. I'll close with Verses from James Chapter 3: [sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. [sup]2[/sup]For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. [sup]3[/sup]Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. [sup]4[/sup]Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. [sup]5[/sup]Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! [sup]6[/sup]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [sup]7[/sup]For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: [sup]8[/sup]But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [sup]9[/sup]Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [sup]10[/sup]Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. [sup]11[/sup]Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? [sup]12[/sup]Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. [sup]13[/sup]Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [sup]14[/sup]But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [sup]15[/sup]This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [sup]16[/sup]For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [sup]17[/sup]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [sup]18[/sup]And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Written with love and the intent of learning and sharing the Truth
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