I’m continuing a conversation with Naomi25 concerning whether the millennium is a real thing or not.
Naomi25 said in the thread, Replacement theology, #54- “However...in regards to your other idea...of during the millennium the Church will be in heaven while everyone else will be, I assume, in normal bodies down here with Christ reigning over them...I still have some problems with it. Firstly...I find no scripture evidence for it. Secondly, it still leaves us with a bit of a mess, does it not? What could be the purpose for such a time? “
She also said - “Well, we certainly don't let one passage in an apocolyptic (hard to interpret) book tell us how to interpret these easier passages...”
My response to this is that when one considers only the obvious symbolism when it is explained and takes the rest literally as the majority is meant to be understood, it’s really not that hard to understand at all because it doesn’t need to be “interpreted!”
This is my attempt to answer these questions. The OT is full of prophecies regarding the millennial era and in my opinion to reduce them to symbolic language meaning “good times are ahead” reduces them from a God-given promise to a bland, hopeful greeting card.
The purpose of this time is simple, God wants it so and he has foretold us through his prophets that it is coming. Whether we, in our simple human minds understand the purpose of it, is irrelevant to it being a truth. There will be souls born that He wants in the world, leadership positions as promised to his followers through the parable of the ten pounds from Luke 19.
Luke 19:11-19 - “And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.”
So, let’s check out if there is any scriptural evidence for an earthly millennial kingdom. This will consist of many verses, so there can be no doubt.
Jer. 23:5-6 - “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.”
Is.2:2-3 - “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” (Jerusalem will be the millennial capitol of the world)
Is. 11:6-8 shall become a reality. Is. 65:20-25 - “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands (the 144,000+, my words). 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.”
Ps. 47:7-8 - “For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. 8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.” (In Jerusalem)
Ps. 67:4 - “O let the nations be glad and sing for
for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth.”
Ez. 36:35 - “And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.”
See also - Ezek. 43:7, 47:8-9 Also note that Ez. 38 and 39 are separate events. Ez. 38 is the post millennial deception and following war as also mentioned in Rev. 19:8. Ez. 38 is post Armageddon where it takes some time to clean up after that battle, vss. 9-15.
Zech. 14:9 - “And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.”
Zech. 14:16-17 - “ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (My words, These will be the gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 to enter the millennial era, and their offspring)17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.”
The book of Hosea also has millennial prophecies. See 1:10-11, 2:14-20, 23. These are only a selected handful out of a great many that speak of a future earthly Eden-like kingdom that God promised the nation of Israel. Israel never truly possessed in peace the “Promised Land” of the OT and they have never owned the amount of land described in the latter parts of Ezekiel. Now let’s see if there are any NT prophecies suggesting a literal millennial era.
Lk. 1:32-33 - “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the (earthly) throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Word in parenthesis, mine)
Matt. 19:28 - “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, (on earth) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Phil. 2:10 - “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (after his ascension), and things in earth (when he returns for Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment), and things under the earth. (After the millennium at the GWTJ)” This verse is one that figuratively foretells the various timings of Christ’s reign, (words in parenthesis, mine) Notice Paul is not combining all these things, by his style, he is showing they are separate from each other.
Consider 2 Peter 3:9-13 we see Peter equating the day of fire and destruction to the day of the Lord, but we can in the chronological order that Rev. is mostly written in, know that this judgement comes after the millennial era thus proving to us of the literal interpretation persuasion that the “day” is more than 1000 years because we know that is begins with the signs of the 6th seal as also foretold by Joel.
In closing, do you realize that the “earth” is mentioned 77 times in Revelation? That seems to be a lot for a supposed “one and done” judgment day taking place in heaven! I don’t understand how anyone could consider all of Rev. as being a single “day” of judgment when in the book it has several various lengths of time mentioned, 1260 days, 42 months, five months, multiple scenarios that obviously can’t be different ways of saying the same thing over and over. From the myriad of scriptures concerning the subject it can not be denied that there is a great length of time prophesied about Christ ruling and reigning upon the Earth!
Naomi25 said in the thread, Replacement theology, #54- “However...in regards to your other idea...of during the millennium the Church will be in heaven while everyone else will be, I assume, in normal bodies down here with Christ reigning over them...I still have some problems with it. Firstly...I find no scripture evidence for it. Secondly, it still leaves us with a bit of a mess, does it not? What could be the purpose for such a time? “
She also said - “Well, we certainly don't let one passage in an apocolyptic (hard to interpret) book tell us how to interpret these easier passages...”
My response to this is that when one considers only the obvious symbolism when it is explained and takes the rest literally as the majority is meant to be understood, it’s really not that hard to understand at all because it doesn’t need to be “interpreted!”
This is my attempt to answer these questions. The OT is full of prophecies regarding the millennial era and in my opinion to reduce them to symbolic language meaning “good times are ahead” reduces them from a God-given promise to a bland, hopeful greeting card.
The purpose of this time is simple, God wants it so and he has foretold us through his prophets that it is coming. Whether we, in our simple human minds understand the purpose of it, is irrelevant to it being a truth. There will be souls born that He wants in the world, leadership positions as promised to his followers through the parable of the ten pounds from Luke 19.
Luke 19:11-19 - “And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.”
So, let’s check out if there is any scriptural evidence for an earthly millennial kingdom. This will consist of many verses, so there can be no doubt.
Jer. 23:5-6 - “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.”
Is.2:2-3 - “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” (Jerusalem will be the millennial capitol of the world)
Is. 11:6-8 shall become a reality. Is. 65:20-25 - “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands (the 144,000+, my words). 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.”
Ps. 47:7-8 - “For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. 8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.” (In Jerusalem)
Ps. 67:4 - “O let the nations be glad and sing for
for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth.”Ez. 36:35 - “And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.”
See also - Ezek. 43:7, 47:8-9 Also note that Ez. 38 and 39 are separate events. Ez. 38 is the post millennial deception and following war as also mentioned in Rev. 19:8. Ez. 38 is post Armageddon where it takes some time to clean up after that battle, vss. 9-15.
Zech. 14:9 - “And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.”
Zech. 14:16-17 - “ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (My words, These will be the gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 to enter the millennial era, and their offspring)17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.”
The book of Hosea also has millennial prophecies. See 1:10-11, 2:14-20, 23. These are only a selected handful out of a great many that speak of a future earthly Eden-like kingdom that God promised the nation of Israel. Israel never truly possessed in peace the “Promised Land” of the OT and they have never owned the amount of land described in the latter parts of Ezekiel. Now let’s see if there are any NT prophecies suggesting a literal millennial era.
Lk. 1:32-33 - “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the (earthly) throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Word in parenthesis, mine)
Matt. 19:28 - “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, (on earth) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Phil. 2:10 - “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (after his ascension), and things in earth (when he returns for Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment), and things under the earth. (After the millennium at the GWTJ)” This verse is one that figuratively foretells the various timings of Christ’s reign, (words in parenthesis, mine) Notice Paul is not combining all these things, by his style, he is showing they are separate from each other.
Consider 2 Peter 3:9-13 we see Peter equating the day of fire and destruction to the day of the Lord, but we can in the chronological order that Rev. is mostly written in, know that this judgement comes after the millennial era thus proving to us of the literal interpretation persuasion that the “day” is more than 1000 years because we know that is begins with the signs of the 6th seal as also foretold by Joel.
In closing, do you realize that the “earth” is mentioned 77 times in Revelation? That seems to be a lot for a supposed “one and done” judgment day taking place in heaven! I don’t understand how anyone could consider all of Rev. as being a single “day” of judgment when in the book it has several various lengths of time mentioned, 1260 days, 42 months, five months, multiple scenarios that obviously can’t be different ways of saying the same thing over and over. From the myriad of scriptures concerning the subject it can not be denied that there is a great length of time prophesied about Christ ruling and reigning upon the Earth!
