The relationship between faith and works.

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justbyfaith

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From #803 in Spotting the Heretic

When a person is declared righteous, they are also made righteous; for it is impossible for the Lord to lie (Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2).

Being justified for ever, they are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)). So if anyone is truly justified, they are not going to disobey the gospel.

That faith without works is dead means that if anyone has genuine faith it will produce a change of character and a change of life.
If someone does not have this change of character and change of life, it is the sign that their faith was not genuine.

But to be technical, a person is not saved by or through the change in character; rather the change in character is the salvation that is given; and it is given because of faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Salvation is the transformation of character that happens because of faith. Works...and righteous behaviour...all stem out of a salvation that is given because of faith alone. The works and righteous behaviour demonstrate that the person truly has salvation....because genuine faith always produces a change in character; and therefore if the change in character is not there, it can be said that the faith was not genuine.

So justification is in fact a one-time action of God and cannot be reversed...for what you failed to realize, <username removed>, is that those who are declared righteous are also made righteous....God will cause them to walk in His statutes and in His judgments for all of their days...Ezekiel 36:27 (kjv).

He places the fear of the LORD in them so that they will never walk away...Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9 (kjv).

He produces within them an eternal righteousness wherein they abide in Him and "sin not" (1 John 3:6) for ever more (1 John 2:17).
 
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DPMartin

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From #803 in Spotting the Heretic

When a person is declared righteous, they are also made righteous; for it is impossible for the Lord to lie (Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2).

Being justified for ever, they are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)). So if anyone is truly justified, they are not going to disobey the gospel.

That faith without works is dead means that if anyone has genuine faith it will produce a change of character and a change of life.
If someone does not have this change of character and change of life, it is the sign that their faith was not genuine.

where does it say you are declared righteous?

also though all is anew its because its not of you, therefore the "faith" is evident as a result of God with a person meaning the things of God and His Presence are the works. not some church people views on behavior.

King David's God was with him but David's behavior was anything but "Christian behavior" according to church people's views.
 

DPMartin

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The term "justify" in any good Bile dictionary, means "to declare righteous".


one being justified by Christ's righteousness, yes, but where does it say that you are righteous. the translators used the word righteous and righteousness where it applies and justify where it applies.


anyway a good English dictionary is what to use seeing the translators didn't use American religious views of terms.
the OED exhaustive version states on justify:

†1. trans. To administer justice to; to try as a judge, to judge; to have jurisdiction over, rule, control, keep in order; to do justice to, treat justly. b. absol. To administer justice, to judge. Obs.

†2. trans. To execute justice upon (a malefactor); to condemn to punishment; to punish, esp. (Sc.) to punish with death, execute. Obs.


3. To show (a person or action) to be just or in the right; to prove or maintain the righteousness or innocence of; to vindicate (†from a charge).
13+ E.E. Allit. P. A. 699 Non lyuyande to þe is Iustyfyet. 1382 Wyclif Ps. l. 6 [li. 4] That thou be iustefied in thi woordis, and ouercome whan thou art demed. c1450 tr. De Imitatione iii. xxix. 99 Þou+iustifiest me in all my disposicions. 1535 Coverdale Ecclus. vii. 5 Iustifie not thy self before God. 1600 E. Blount tr. Conestaggio 224 Some of his friendes, laboured to iustifie him. 1707 Curios. in Husb. & Gard. 119 Justifying them from any Objections that might be made against them. 1868 M. Pattison Acad. Org. v. 148 We have no longer the difficult task of justifying science in the eyes of the nation. 1647 N. Bacon Disc. Govt. Eng. i. xxxvi. (1739) 53 Neither Monk, Woman, nor Clerk was by Law to justify by Battle in their own person.

b. Of a state of things, circumstance, or motive: To afford a justification of. (Often in passive.)

4. To absolve, acquit, exculpate; spec. in Theol. to declare free from the penalty of sin on the ground of Christ's righteousness, or to make inherently righteous by the infusion of grace: see justification 4. Also absol.
1382 Wyclif Isa. v. 23 Wo+that iustefien the vnpitous for Šiftes. I Rom. iii. 26 That he be iust, and iustifyinge him that is of the feith of Ihesu Crist. Ibid. 28 Forsothe we demen a man for to be iustifyed by feith, withouten workis of lawe. 1526 Tindale Rom. iv. 25 Jesus+Which was delivered for oure synnes, and rose agayne forto iustifye vs. 1535 Coverdale Exod. xxiii. 7 The innocent and righteous shalt thou not sley, for I iustifie not ye vngodly. 1550 Veron Godly Sayings (1846) 15 For say they+if the Sacramente dothe not iustyfye, & brynge grace of itselfe, then it is but bare breade & wyne. a1620 Donne 2nd Serm. John xvi. 8 Only thy good life can assure thy conscience and the world, that thou art justified. a1740 Waterland Doctr. Justification iv, God+has made no promise or covenant to justify any one without the use of Baptism. 1859 J. Cumming Ruth viii. 138 It is the office of Jesus to pardon, to justify, to welcome.

5. To make good (an argument, statement, or opinion); to confirm or support by attestation or evidence; to corroborate, prove, verify.
†b. To maintain as true, affirm, aver. Obs.
1579–80 North Plutarch, Marius (1676) 353 The which would not be beleeved+for the uncredible force and Power of the Armies which was justified to come. 1658 Osborn Q. Eliz. (1673) 461 An Inquisition+which a Cursiter did about that time justifie he had inrolled. 1781 W. Blane Ess. Hunting (1788) 71 The Doctor+to this day relates and justifies the truth of every circumstance I have mentioned.

†c. To acknowledge as true or genuine. Obs.
1608 Shakes. Per. v. i. 219 She shall tell thee all; When thou shalt kneele, and justifie in knowledge, She is thy verie Princes. c1611 Chapman Iliad xv. 110 The great God had a son, Whom he himself yet justifies.

6. To show or maintain the justice or reasonableness of (an action, claim, etc.); to adduce adequate grounds for; to defend as right or proper.
1560 J. Daus tr. Sleidane's Comm. 7 He aunswered, that he woulde iustifye that, that he had done, eyther in present disputation, or by writinge. 1641 Milton Ch. Govt. ii. iii, How can they justify to have turned their domestic privileges into the bar of a proud judicial court? 1667 I P.L. i. 26 That+I may assert th' eternal Providence, And justifie the wayes of God to men. 1704 Penn in Pa. Hist. Soc. Mem. IX. 357, I justify not my son's folly. 1884 F. Temple Relat. Relig. & Sc. v. (1885) 155 All who thus claim super~natural authority must, of course, justify their claim.

b. To make right, proper, or reasonable; to furnish adequate grounds for, warrant.
1658 Bramhall Consecr. Bps. iii. 48 This very necessity had+iustified the Act. 1718 Prior Hans Carvel 67 The end must justifie the means; He only sins who ill intends. 1732 Arbuthnot Rules of Diet 419 Those Reasons seem to justify Bleeding. 1742 Young Nt. Th. iv. 309 'Tis guilt alone can justify his death. 1813 Scott Rokeby i. viii, Much in the stranger's mien appears, To justify suspicious fears. 1891 Speaker 2 May 526/2 The vast circle of his readers justified his complacency by their applause.

†c. To render lawful or legitimate. Obs.
1651 Hobbes Leviath. ii. xxii. 117 Whatsoever is commanded by the Soveraign Power, is as to the Subject+justified by the Command. 1725 Pope Odyss. vi. 346 Till+public nuptials justify the bride.

7. Law. intr. and trans. a. To show or maintain sufficient reason in court for doing that which one is called upon to answer for; to show adequate grounds for (that with which one is charged).
1529 Act 21 Hen. VIII, c. 19 §2 The Lorde+may avowe or his Baylyffe or servaunt make conysaunce or justifye for takyng of the said dystresses upon the same landes+alegyng in the said avourie conysaunce and justificacyon the same Maners Landes and Tenementes to be holdin of hym. 1591 Child Marriages 150 The said Smith+did arreste the said Roger Dod+and beinge charged to be a wronge, and contrary to the liberties and charters of this citie, iustifieth to be lawfull. 1765 Blackstone Comm. I. xiv, 429 A master like~wise may justify an assault in defence of his servant, and a servant in defence of his master. 1768–74 Tucker Lt. Nat. (1834) II. 258 If a man be impeached for beating an~other, he may justify by showing it was done in his own necessary defence: if for false imprisonment, he may justify under the warrant of a lawful magistrate. 1893 Weekly Notes 67/2 The appellant could not justify his attempt to force an entrance, and was rightly convicted of an assault.


†8. To account just or reasonable; to approve of; to ratify. Obs.
1682 Grew Anat. Plants Pref., I was glad to see it [a book] so far justify'd by that Illustrious Society. 1729 Butler Serm., Love Neighbour Wks. 1874 II. 146 God him~self will in the end justify their taste, and support their cause.

9. To make exact; to fit or arrange exactly; to adjust to exact shape, size, or position. Now only in technical use; esp. (Type-founding), To adjust a ‘strike’ or ‘drive’ by making the sides level and square, and keeping the impression at the proper depth, so as to form a correct matrix; (Printing) To adjust types of smaller and larger bodies together, so that they will exactly fill up the forme; to space out the line of type in the composing stick properly; also intr. of type.


note #3 is a case to show justification or innocence hence righteous but even the Brits understand correctly and this would be the use of the term of justify in this case in #4 I quote " to declare free from the penalty of sin on the ground of Christ's righteousness," not that you are righteous but that Christ is righteous.

so the OED is the authoritative on the English language as used in the time of translation and proper and accurate definitions. where as religious cogitations in bible dictionaries and American dictionaries defining according to American use of the adopted English language. note #4 has example of use that goes back to 1382 AD aprox. 200 yr's before the KJV.

anyway again, where does it say you are righteous?


sorry I couldn't post the examples of the other def's it was to large, but there was no ref. to righteousness in those anyway
 

marks

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anyway again, where does it say you are righteous?
Here is one place . . .

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We have been born again righteous and truly holy.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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The definition of justify in the Bible means to declare righteous.

So, see the OP as to how a man is made righteous in being declared righteous.
 

Grailhunter

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Thanks for the topic JBF...hope you and yours are doing greater than great!

The confusion of what defines "works" pertains to two different discussions. Works of the Law and Deeds of the Christian Walk, of which neither has nothing to do with salvation. But what James was talking about if you read the storyline was the Good Deeds that Christians should do.

The confusion factor was how the Greek word "ergon" could be translated. The word can be translated to works or deeds. Most of the times works is referring to obeying the Law, and deeds are referring to doing Christian good deeds or service.

Working with the Mosaic Law or obeying or observing the Law can remove you from Christianity, so that is certainly not the Way to salvation.

Good Deeds are expected of Christians, and Christ speaks of treasures in heaven, but it still is not what saves you. Then again there is the parable of the Talents. If you are good boy and sit like a bump on a log afraid of doing anything because it might be a sin. In other words only looking out for yourself so you can go to heaven, then the parable of the Talents suggest He will say He never knew you at judgement.

For to everyone who has shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away and cast out the worthless slave the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He is not talking about money or property investments here, "For to everyone who has" means Good Deeds to your credit. Good deeds do not initially save you, but lack of them, my change your destination at judgment.

Look into the Greek word and how it is used.

 
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justbyfaith

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Working with the Mosaic Law or obeying or observing the Law can remove you from Christianity, so that is certainly not the Way to salvation.

Observing the law will not remove you from Christianity (see Matthew 5:17-20, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).

He is not talking about money or property investments here, "For to everyone who has" means Good Deeds to your credit.

"everyone who has" means everyone who has spiritual life in Christ. It is not the good deeds to your credit that will provide you with more; although if one has true spiritual life he will have good deeds to his credit. But it is the inward transformation of being born again that matters.

Good deeds do not initially save you, but lack of them, my change your destination at judgment.

There is no change of destination if you lack good deeds at judgment.

Here is Paul's teaching on this:

1Co 3:11, For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12, Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13, Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14, If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15, If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If all of what you do in life turns out to be hay and stubble, you will still be saved if you have laid the foundation.
 

Grailhunter

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Observing the law will not remove you from Christianity (see Matthew 5:17-20, Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).



"everyone who has" means everyone who has spiritual life in Christ. It is not the good deeds to your credit that will provide you with more; although if one has true spiritual life he will have good deeds to his credit. But it is the inward transformation of being born again that matters.



There is no change of destination if you lack good deeds at judgment.

Here is Paul's teaching on this:

1Co 3:11, For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12, Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13, Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14, If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15, If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If all of what you do in life turns out to be hay and stubble, you will still be saved if you have laid the foundation.
I disagree
Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
or if you like
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Then we can get into the analogy of the wine in old wine skins and patches on old garments.
 
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justbyfaith

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I disagree
Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
or if you like
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Then we can get into the analogy of the wine in old wine skins and patches on old garments.

Yes, it is a sin to attempt to be justified by the law; however if you know that you are justified through His shed blood, obedience to the law out of love for Jesus Christ is not going to put you out of the kingdom.

I would encourage you to look up the verses that I have referenced in a post above (#8-- The relationship between faith and works.).
 
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Grailhunter

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Yes, it is a sin to attempt to be justified by the law; however if you know that you are justified through His shed blood, obedience to the law out of love for Jesus Christ is not going to put you out of the kingdom.

I would encourage you to look up the verses that I have referenced in a post above (#8-- The relationship between faith and works.).
It is the same thing! But still, you can not obey the law even if you wanted to! You cannot dissect the Law and pick and choose which laws you are going to obey. Christ and the Apostle Paul made it clear that that is sacrilegious. So many people make this mistake, thinking they look more religious because they say they obey the law. Most do not know the 613 Mosaic Laws, so how could they obey them? And if they did know them, they would know you cannot obey them today, you would either end up in a prison or an insane asylum. You are better off if you want to be a Jew, be a Jew. You cannot try to straddle two covenants with God. That is what Christ was trying to tell people with the story of new wine in old wine skins.
 
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justbyfaith

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It is the same thing! But still, you can not obey the law even if you wanted to! You cannot dissect the Law and pick and choose which laws you are going to obey. Christ and the Apostle Paul made it clear that that is sacrilegious. So many people make this mistake, thinking they look more religious because they say they obey the law. Most do not know the 613 Mosaic Laws, so how could they obey them? And if they did know them, they would know you cannot obey them today, you would either end up in a prison or an insane asylum. You are better off if you want to be a Jew, be a Jew. You cannot try to straddle two covenants with God. That is what Christ was trying to tell people with the story of new wine in old wine skins.

In Galatians 5:22-23 it says that there is no law that will condemn the person who bears the fruit of the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

The requirement of the law in its do's and don'ts, does not have the power to save in our keeping of them through focusing on the commandment (Romans 3:19-20, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:21).

However, through faith in Jesus Christ, the love of the Lord can be shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5); and this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

The law as a set of requirements only points out the fact that we are sinners (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)). It defines sin (1 John 3:4); it even defines what it means to violate the law of liberty which is love.

If we love other people we will fulfill the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4); and therefore we will find that the law does not condemn us as sinners by pointing out our sins because we will not be sinning according to the law (1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:9).

But we do not arrive at this righteousness through attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts (Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9).

We arrive at it through faith; by which we receive the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). And the fruit of the Spirit is love; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

So there is a righteousness of God which is apart from the law for those who believe; which is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).
 
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Grailhunter

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In Galatians 5:22-23 it says that there is no law that will condemn the person who bears the fruit of the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

The requirement of the law in its do's and don'ts, does not have the power to save in our keeping of them through focusing on the commandment (Romans 3:19-20, Galatians 2:16).

However, through faith in Jesus Christ, the love of the Lord can be shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5); and this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

The law as a set of requirements only points out the fact that we are sinners (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)). It defines sin (1 John 3:4); it even defines what it means to violate the law of liberty which is love.

If we love other people we will fulfill the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4); and therefore we will find that the law does not condemn us as sinners by pointing out our sins because we will not be sinning according to the law (1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:9).

But we do not arrive at this righteousness through attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts (Romans 3:21, Philippians 3:9).

We arrive at it through faith; by which we receive the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14). And the fruit of the Spirit is love; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

So there is a righteousness of God which is apart from the law for those who believe; which is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).

Again, if you knew the 613 Mosaic Laws you would know that you cannot follow them. You would know that you cannot dissect them, and follow the ones you want to.

Obviously Christ understood that as He explained that trying to do that would harm both religions. Mark 2:21-22 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”


Further more Paul made distinctions between those that are under the Law and those who are not under the Law, but rather faith. (Romans 3:19-21 & 4:14, 16, Galatians 4:21, 1 Cor. 9:20-21) The Old Covenants revealed the Holiness of God in the righteous standard of the Law. God promised his people that compliance to the Law would insure many Earthly rewards and his blessings. The New Covenant reveals the Holiness of God in His righteous Son. The New Testament contains those writing that reveals the Son of God and the New Covenant between God and Man. The New Covenant promises very few Earthly rewards but offers Forgiveness, Grace, Justification, Sanctification, Adoption, Glorification, Reconciliation with God, and Eternal Life.

Under the terms of the Old Covenant no flesh could be Justified. (Acts 13:38-41, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16-21, 3:11) Because the Law itself brought about the wrath of God. But for those that have entered into the New Covenant with God….where there is NO Law, neither is there violation, (Romans 4:15) Christians are not under the Law but under grace. (Romans 10:4 Galatians 5:18) Because apart from the Law Sin is dead. (Romans 7:8) As Christians we serve God in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law. (Romans 7:6) Because Christ, our savior was the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4, Eph. 2:15) We are Justified by faith apart from the Law. (Romans 3:28, 5:1)

The Apostle Paul referred to the Old Covenant and the Mosaic Law as a ministry of death and condemnation. Stating that the letter of the Law kills, but the spirit gives life, (2 Corinthians 3:1-9) and said that Jesus freed us from the curse of the Law. (Galatians 3:12-13) And said that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) The Old Law was set aside because of its weakness and uselessness. Jesus being the mediator for us, in a better Covenant with God. (Hebrews 7:18-22 & 8:1-13 & 10:9) In Ephesians 2:15&16, Paul had this to say; “….by abolishing in his flesh the ENMITY, which IS the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to DEATH THE ENMITY.

In Galatians Paul had a warning for those that seek to live under the Law or look to the Law as a moral guide. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4) For those that look to the Laws for righteousness and thereby Sin under the Law, Hebrews has this to say; “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES ……IT IS A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:26-31) Jesus also pointed this out in John 15:22. In Philippians, Paul called those people that still preached adherence to the Old Laws, dogs, evil workers and warned against false circumcision. (Phil. 3:2-14) In Titus, Paul warned against paying attention to those that preached Jewish myths and commandments of men. (Titus 1:13&14)

In John 8:17, Jesus indirectly implies that the Mosaic Law was not His Law saying, “Even in your law it has been written…”

And in verse 31&32 He indicates that to be considered one of His disciples, one most follow His word, and His word would set you free from the Law and Sin; “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And verses 34-36, go on to further illustrate that the Jewish Covenant and Laws made them slaves to Sin, but Jesus’ Covenant would set His people free of Sin and the Law. “Truly , truly, I say to you, everyone who commits Sin is the slave to Sin. “And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. And verse 24 had already indicated that the Jews had no hope of salvation unless they accepted Jesus and His Laws. “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your Sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your Sins.”

So are the Apostles saying that the Law was bad, or contrary to the promises of God? No! So what was the purpose for the Laws of Moses and the Ten Commandments? The Apostle Paul offers a few explanations for this. (Romans 15:4 & Galatians 3:17-29) “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” So as it is the phrase Ten Commandments does not appear in the New Testament.

Romans 5:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested being witnessed by the Law and the prophets.

Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Roman 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ that you might be joined to another to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.

Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

2nd Corinthians 3:6-8 Who also made us adequate as servants of the new covenant not the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, do you not listen to the Law….

Galatians 7:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

 
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justbyfaith

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The condemnation of the law has indeed been dealt with at the Cross (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

However, this does not mean that we are not governed by the law from the inside. We are, in fact, inwardly governed by the law as recipients of the New Covenant, the law has been written in our hearts and on our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

I would suggest looking up these scripture references before responding again; especially in the kjv (that is the Bible that I relate from where there are any differences).

The law as a schoolmaster / tutor, while we are no longer under it, has fully trained us to live as a son of our father who will not disgrace the family in the real world.

I would suggest going through my previous posts in this thread and thinking about my statements as they apply to the scriptures that I have referenced. Because I don't think that you got the message that I was trying to portray.

#8 (The relationship between faith and works.)

#10 (The relationship between faith and works.)

#12 (The relationship between faith and works.)
 
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Grailhunter

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The condemnation of the law has indeed been dealt with at the Cross (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

However, this does not mean that we are not governed by the law from the inside. We are, in fact, inwardly governed by the law as recipients of the New Covenant, the law has been written in our hearts and on our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

I would suggest looking up these scripture before responding again; especially in the kjv (that is the Bible that I relate from where there are any differences).

The law as a schoolmaster / tutor, while we are no longer under it, has fully trained us to live as a son of our father who will not disgrace the family in the real world.

I would suggest going through my previous posts in this thread and thinking about my statements as they apply to the scriptures that I have referenced. Because I don't think that you got the message that I was trying to portray.

#8 (The relationship between faith and works.)

#10 (The relationship between faith and works.)

#12 (The relationship between faith and works.)

lol At this point I will say the obvious....So then go ahead and follow the 613 Mosaic Laws...at least then you would have to learn them! Don't just sit hear and give them lip service. Go do it.
 

justbyfaith

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lol At this point I will say the obvious....So then go ahead and follow the 613 Mosaic Laws...at least then you would have to learn them! Don't just sit hear and give them lip service. Go do it.
Again, you have not understood what I have tried to teach you about obedience and the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us.

It is not accomplished by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; it is accomplished by walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh.
 
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Enoch111

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The relationship between faith and works.
I believe there is another thread with the same or similar title.
In any event the relationship between saving faith and works is clearly spelled out in Ephesians 2:8,9,10.
1. We are saved by grace through faith.
2. Salvation is a gift of God's grace.
3. We are saved unto good works.

Which means that the absence of good works is a very good indicator that there was no saving faith.
 

Grailhunter

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Again, you have not understood what I have tried to teach you about obedience and the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us.

It is not accomplished by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; it is accomplished by walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh.
Understood. But the discussion you and I are having is about obeying the law. Walking with Christ is a different topic.
 

justbyfaith

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I believe there is another thread with the same or similar title.
In any event the relationship between saving faith and works is clearly spelled out in Ephesians 2:8,9,10.
1. We are saved by grace through faith.
2. Salvation is a gift of God's grace.
3. We are saved unto good works.

Which means that the absence of good works is a very good indicator that there was no saving faith.
However, we are not saved by works.
 
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