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Featured The Righteous

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Episkopos, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Here is a subject that religion has obscured to the point of destroying what is good in order to support that which is evil.

    I would have put this subject in the unorthodox doctrines section....but how could I do that to this very basic topic?

    I want to begin with a story of my own making that illustrates my point.

    A certain king was dying and sent for his son who was to become king in his place. That son had never lived in the kingdom he was to inherit as he was raised elsewhere. But upon arrival he set out to find out what kind of subjects he was to govern. So he dressed in a casual manner and set out on his horse.

    Along the way the horse slipped and the young prince fell into a ditch, breaking his leg.

    When he awoke he found himself in the care of a farmer...who, finding him unconscious and lying in the ditch, had taken him to his home in order to look after him.

    The young prince, upon awakening asked the farmer. "do you know who I am"??

    The farmer replied "no...you were in need of help so here I am at your service"

    (Now the ending depends on how you read the bible....)

    Many evangelicals would have the young prince say...'What you don't know me or even my name?...away to the gallows with you....for you are evil. "

    (Of course this majority view sees Jesus as a type of Rumpelstiltskin who is very indignant about people knowing who he is or not...)

    But wouldn't Jesus reward that farmer very greatly?...(by making him a rich man in order to encourage others to do as he did.)


    So here is a question. Was the farmer righteous?
     
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  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm struggling to follow your analogy, sorry (that could well be my fault, however, not your own!).
    Why would evangelicals say "away to the gallows" to the farmer for helping the Prince, regardless of knowing his identity?
    And....must we label good deeds a righteousness? Aren't we told in scripture that no one is righteous, no not one? Any righteousness Christians have is Christ's own righteousness that has been imputed to us. We carry out good deeds through that grace and righteousness...in response to it, but I'm not sure that we can lay claim to it ourselves.
     
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  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since the farmer was a Good Samaritan he was indeed righteous. But that does not necessarily mean that he would become materially wealthy.
     
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  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The point that I was making was how a person is deemed righteous by works and not just by belief.
     
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  5. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Active Member

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    Show me faith without the works .
    Go and heal thy self ?
     
  6. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Before anything else we are instructed to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Some will come to a theological understanding of salvation (soteriology), appreciate the love inherent in Calvary, but not for a time fully understand the righteousness of God that He is to seek for. Others, utterly concious of their own sin and shortcomings, and their own unworthiness, plead for a change of heart and mind and receive the righteousness of Christ as a gift... They are born again long before they have any theological understanding of what process was undertaken by which such a transaction could possible take place.
    So we all come to God through different routes. We all have our own stories to tell, our own testimonies which all bear witness to the love, mercy, and grace so freely bestowed upon us all. But no matter by which route we came to know our Saviour, none of us will ever enter glory without the righteousness of Christ. The kingdom and Christ's righteousness is a package deal. Not one and the same, but intimately related.
    Now most here have a fairly good understanding of what the kingdom is... Certainly everyone has an opinion on that. But I am not so sure that many have a good clear appreciation of what the righteousness of Christ fully entails. The analogy above does go some way in explaining it.
     
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  7. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Hey Brakelite. I don't think we have chatted too much yet...:)

    Here you are going for the whole enchalada. I find that people miss the righteousness of God by missing what righteousness is altogether. But yes, WE who are called to follow Christ are to go all the way to the full stature of Christ. But I don't see this as just salvation.....it is GLORY.

    The purpose of this thread is to sort that out.

    The experiential indeed comes much later for many...if at all.

    We need to see God's righteousness in contrast to our own....just like we won't understand His power unless we understand our own limitations.

    Peace.
     
  8. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Faith = belief

    I think your point is that we are saved by our works and not by faith only. IMO that is salvation by the works of man and not by what Jesus did on the cross. But the religious want credit for what they do to be saved just as Cain did.
     
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  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I would like to begin sorting out righteousness so as to avoid mixture.

    I'll use colours. :)


    Let's say OUR righteousness...is yellow.

    Let's say God's righteousness....is blue.

    When these are mixed together....we get green. This mixture is iniquity...

    We are called to purge ourselves from iniquity. IOW we are to not mix up God's righteousness with our own. When one does that...it destroys both righteousnesses.

    So then what we hear mainly these days for doctrines...is the mixture.

    The OP is about what we do that is seen as right. That is our own righteousness. This isn't done to appear righteous. It is done because it is the right thing to do. Those who do things to APPEAR righteous.....are SELF-righteous. But those who are not looking at appearing righteous.....but just doing right...are just righteous.

    So we need to see the colours as separate....and never mix them. They both exist...otherwise there could not be a mixture. And this is the problem. Many have been indoctrinated into believing that righteousness on a human level doesn't exist. That is a prime condition for mixture.

    These parrot the same verse over and over again....."there is none righteous"

    But this is a comparison verse.

    The bible speaks of MANY righteous people...and they indeed existed.

    But the verse says...there is NONE so righteous that they never sin. So then OUR righteousness has no power over sin.

    The righteousness of God DOES.


    Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

    So the this is a defense of God's righteous against our righteousness. Far from denying a human righteousness....it is keeping it in it's place by a comparison. We sin. No matter how much good we do....we will yet sin. All this because we are weak and in need of God and His grace.
     
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You're not getting it. The religious think as you do. A person who God justifies is not looking to be justified. A righteous person doesn't think they are righteous. God does, however.

    We are NOT talking about salvation. Please disconnect....even for a second...righteousness from an obsession with salvation. .


    Brainwashing does this. It short-circuits the mind. As does an obsession with salvation.

    So we will see how many bring up salvation...whereas this thread is not about salvation or what it takes to be SAVED.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  11. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Look at Phinehas...the man who killed 2 lovers. Did he kill them because he wanted to have salvation?

    Or did he do it because he thought it was necessary? God justified him JUST LIKE ABRAHAM....and with a higher honour.

    So then let's look at Phinehas.

    Num. 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
    8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
    9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
    10 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
    12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
    13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.


    Now look at what the Psalmist says...

    Ps. 106:30 But Phinehas stood up and intervened,
    and the plague was checked.
    31 This was credited to him as righteousness
    for endless generations to come.


    Whose righteousness???? His own....just like Abraham. Although in Phinehas' case it wasn't for belief or faith...it was for action. (even killing 2 people)

    The idea here is that people tend to credit their own beliefs for righteousness...which is evil. But Abraham didn't do that...and neither did Phinehas.
     
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  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    So then mixing righteousnesses (Ours and God's) is a great evil...that has dire consequences...as IT DESTOYS BOTH our own righteousness AND God's.

    Look at this..

    Is. 5:6 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
    17Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.
    18Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
    19That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
    20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    21Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
    22Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: (notice the green for mixture)
    23Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
    24Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.



    Here is a classic case of mixture that leads to destroying all righteousness. This is being practiced every day. How many on this very forum take away righteousness from the righteous because they don't believe in righteousness?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  13. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    So then our righteousness is...doing the right thing with what we have been given. It is in a human capacity. So then if we have money....and we give it away to someone in need...we have done a good thing. Anybody can do this. Think of the widow's 2 mites.

    But His righteousness is Christ working His ways through us. It never becomes ours. It is always His. We are just the vessels that contain His holiness. No one can do things on that level...unless Christ is behind it. These are the impossible works that originate from heaven. How did Peter slay Ananias and Sapphira? Did he use a human means? No! It was the righteousness of a holy God ON Peter that did the work.
     
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  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks E,
    This is the post I wanted to reply to, but it's late now.
    Marking for tomorrow....
     
  15. Jun2u

    Jun2u Active Member

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    You are speaking semantics here. How can you separate the word righteousness from salvation? Righteousness means to be “blameless,” and blameless means to be “without sin!” You are mixing apples with oranges.

    The moral of the story of the widow with two mites is that she gave all what she had through her heart, while those at the treasury gave much but with pride in their hearts.

    I believe you are speaking about “the milk of human kindness” given to mankind! Such as those of Mother Teresa and World Relief Organizations. The work they do is never righteous, but the right thing to do as you’ve said.

    No matter how you put it, your theology is very much in error. Anyone can create their own kinds of doctrines by picking and choosing scripture verses. In fact, I can prove through Scripture “there is no God” but that is vanity.

    To God Be The Glory
     
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  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Righteousness does not mean to be blameless exactly. And salvation is something else again.

    I'm not the one mixing apples and oranges.

    The right thing to do....IS what righteousness requires. So if you do what is right...you are righteous. There is no "milk of human kindness" mentioned in the bible. Righteousness IS mentioned often. They are the same.


    I can see how you do that.
     
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  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Paul says that the Scriptures are good for instruction in righteousness. He was talking about the OT.

    We know that God's righteousness is a gift. But if that was the kind of righteousness talked about in the OT....how can one learn it?

    You don't learn a gift.

    So the Paul is admonishing Timothy to ADD righteousness to His spiritual walk...IOW to understand righteousness.
     
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  18. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Here is a verse that will cause more religious snits... ;)

    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    What it doesn't say is...He who accepts Jesus is accepted by God. God doesn't respect our opinions.

    Or...only he who is already accepted can work righteousness.
    This is backwards.

    NO. We must work righteousness in order to be accepted with God. The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom....a wisdom in short supply in our time.
     
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  19. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so what I think you are saying is saying we believe in God as righteousness is evil, but it is acting in God's name that is righteousness? Like the Good Samaritan, Levite, and priest?
     
  20. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Abraham did not declare himself righteous because he believed God. He just believed God and left it to God to think as He wills. Abraham let God be the judge. If we judge ourselves as righteous because of our beliefs...we are doubly sinful. We will be judged harshly.

    We are just to do what is right without calculation. Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing....in righteousness.
    .
     
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