The Seven Reformations

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Apostolic - We all like to think our church is the closest to the Apostolic!
Smyrna - Martyr - Early Orthodox formed in this time.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Therefore...

Pergamos - Orthodoxy still retains elements of the Medieval ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism still retains elements of the mid ages.
Sardis - Protestantism still retains elements of the Protestant ages.
Philadelphia - Methodism/Pentecostism still retains elements of the Romantic period.
Laodicea - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

The Candlesticks - Are the seven churches
The Stars - Are each of the Christians within the seven churches. In that Christ holds each of us in his right hand. We are all little lights that make up the big light of the constellation of our church age.

The mystery- As this is Christ's mystery I cannot tell if we are all of the Laodicean constellation, or if all the candlesticks are lit, and that we all have our little light within one of the constellation.

I think it a neat thing that we, like Christ, have opportunity to walk amongst the seven churches.

 

[JimParker]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Apostolic - We all like to think our church is the closest to the Apostolic!
Smyrna - Martyr - Early Orthodox formed in this time.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Therefore...

Pergamos - Orthodoxy still retains elements of the Medieval ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism still retains elements of the mid ages.
Sardis - Protestantism still retains elements of the Protestant ages.
Philadelphia - Methodism/Pentecostism still retains elements of the Romantic period.
Laodicea - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

The Candlesticks - Are the seven churches
The Stars - Are each of the Christians within the seven churches. In that Christ holds each of us in his right hand. We are all little lights that make up the big light of the constellation of our church age.

The mystery- As this is Christ's mystery I cannot tell if we are all of the Laodicean constellation, or if all the candlesticks are lit, and that we all have our little light within one of the constellation.

I think it a neat thing that we, like Christ, have opportunity to walk amongst the seven churches.

Book recommendation: Letters to the Seven Churches by William Barclay, The Westminster Press

 

[rockytopva]

Book recommendation: Letters to the Seven Churches by William Barclay, The Westminster Press

I believe that there was apostasy in every century of the church of Jesus Christ and that the churches ages highlights Christ's feeling and responses to the apostasy of the age. In which spiritual coldness and materialism is ours. Wiliam Barclay needs to take a step out of his Laodicean comfort zone and see things as they actually are.

 

[JimParker]

I believe that there was apostasy in every century of the church of Jesus Christ and that the churches ages highlights Christ's feeling and responses to the apostasy of the age. In which spiritual coldness and materialism is ours. Wiliam Barclay needs to take a step out of his Laodicean comfort zone and see things as they actually are.

<< Wiliam Barclay needs to take a step out of his Laodicean comfort zone and see things as they
actually are. >>

Have you read his book?
Are you familiar with his work?

 

[OzSpen]

<< Wiliam Barclay needs to take a step out of his Laodicean comfort zone and see things as they
actually are. >>

Have you read his book?
Are you familiar with his work?

I have read quite a bit of William Barclay and he taught the heretical doctrine of universalism - all will be saved. Take a read of this article from his own pen, 'I am a convinced universalist'.

 

[Deborah_]

The Church is always in need of reformation.

Personally, I believe that all seven churches are present in every age.

 

[rockytopva]

The Church is always in need of reformation.

Personally, I believe that all seven churches are present in every age.

Deborah... All interpretations of the seven churches are welcome... I do wonder about things...

Is the Catholic church the Thyatirian church?
How much of the Laodicean ways have infiltrated this church?

I think that there are many churches that have denominational names but have been influenced by other church ages. I was reading Luther's 95 Thesis... And a good bit of it condemned the use of indulgences to purchase eternal things. I do not hear of anymore use of indulgences so this is a practice done away with centuries ago. So has the Catholic church came totally out of the Thyatirian church age?

Thinks I wonder about... I say this as t believe this is Christ's mystery and merely do my best.

 

[rockytopva]

Also, I believe that once a church forms as an organization it becomes a she... Not human or not God... But can be a very valuable service to both heaven and earth, and to the human and God. But as she is independent from man and God she can rise up as an organization and become aloof to both man or God if she is not careful.

 

[rockytopva]

There is also a reformation, although a small one, going on in my Pentecostal Holiness church...

From the Philadelphia age...

1. We still sing hymns
2. We still embrace the doctrine of saved, sanctified, and filled with the Spirit.
3. So the doctrine is still long
4. Services still retain the elements we inherited from the Methodist church
5. Pentecostal Holiness is still on our shingle...

Influences of the Laodicean age...

1. Music is more Charismatic Praise and Worship
2. Little care about the church doctrine
3. The word 'relationship' is spoken more often... Including that with the Holy Spirit
4. Our young people meet in a Fellowship building where they enjoy more of a contemporary church service. Sometimes to the annoyance of our pastor as he seldom sees young people in the main service.
4. Pentecostal Holiness churches have renamed their churches such as, "Harbor of Hope," or "House of Praise." Since we consider our denomination Charismatic as well as Wesleyan they are allowed to do this.

These can lead to 'worship wars' as one group prefers the more traditional service to the contemporary. I still enjoy our traditional Pentecostal Holiness service as I taped below...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR1sBPd1hGQ

 

[rockytopva]

If I had to put a founder of a church age...

Ephesus - The Apostle Peter
Smyrna - A scattered church - The Apostle Paul would be the closest
Pergamos - Constantine
Thyatira - Charlemange
Sardis - Martin Luther
Philadelphia -John Wesley
Laodicea - DL Moody - As he was the first to buy a mansion with his missionary proceeds.

There are differences in the Pergameaon and Thyatirean church age based churches... Christian? Yes! Different? Yes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoU2o1iRN0U

 

[Bibliocentrist]

This is a cool topic. My own few cents worth. (Really need to study the 7 letters more and/including the meanings of the names) :

10 days persceution = 10 years under Diocletian 303-313.

Laodiceans is plural , the previous are placenames, ~ many denominations/churches/sects?
Laodicea a manufacturing and commercial centre with large jewish population; and a centre of asclepius god of medicine worship.

Jezebel (&/or harlot) ~ catholic mixture pagan/christianity?
Is philadelphians the colonial/puritan church?? is synagogue of satan masonry??

7 menorahs not 7 candle sticks. 7x7 candlesticks Zechariah = 49 = pentecost [Missler said "will the church be raptured on its bday?"]
[is there an 8th church which is all of them??]

7 churches? 7 baskets left overs/fragments? 7 continents? 7 heads beast?

 

[rockytopva]

Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the Lord, how I hid an hundred men of the Lord's prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water? - 1 Kings 18:13

Jezebel - Remember that Jezebel set up Baal as the state religion and would kill off those who would not bow the knee. The spirit of Jezebel is to control, kill. and to dominate. And Jezebel and a church denomination is a she. And you would not have wanted to cross 'her' in her time. As for ten days, this is what I have recorded from the Foxes book of martyrs... Exactly ten persecutions...

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…

Time Persecutor Description

67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

 

[Axehead]

If we all think that our church is Ephesus, then we all think we have lost our first love.

I agree with Deborah that the behavior of these churches can be found in all generations.

Since the number "seven" is often used in the Revelation to refer to "completeness," it is likely that these seven churches are representative as a "cross-section" of all churches. Based on his personal knowledge of the condition of these churches in the region where he, the apostle John, had ministered, he could use them by the inspiration of the Spirit to portray how insidiously "religion" threatens the Church of Jesus Christ in different ways, and how we must "battle" against such by allowing the life of Jesus Christ to prevail.

 

[Bibliocentrist]

I'm not sure that Nero set fire to Rome, though he may have since they say he wanted to clear so he could re/build. His fiddling while Rome burnt was a take-off of a scene in Trojan War / Iliad.

The 10 persecutions is interesting, though i think 10 days better fits 10 years.

Sorry i made a mistake about synagogue of Satan. On thinking after i woke up some better possibilities are:
synagogue of Satan "who say they are jews and are not"
~ Mormons (Lamanites)?
~ Jehovah's Witness (144000)?
~ British Israel/Christian identity (Lost tribes)?
~ Ratana?
~ replacement theology (church replace israel)?
~ Zionism ("Khazars")?

 

[Wormwood]

The problem I see with these interpretations is that they are really based more on the reader than the author. Creating connections to connect modern-day movements with John's revelation leads us to all kinds of speculation and conjecture with no possibility of being able to confirm anything. I don't think that was John's intent when he wrote, nor Christ's intent when he gave John the revelation. I think we should read Revelation just like we read 2 Corinthians. We understand that the book was written to a particular audience and we understand the principles of that message to be inspired, timeless concepts that teach and guide all Christians in every generation.

 

[Bibliocentrist]

I was not basing on reader not writer. I was trying to work out from the 7 churches text info which time each really church matches. The philadelphian & synagogue of satan seems to be about the time of those lost tribes etc movements. The description of Philadelphia from the text and from historical info seems to fit American/colonial/puritan church. There is also a synagogue of satan in 2nd church time too. The 7 church ages seems to be correct.

The 10 days seems to match the 10 years Diocletian.

I also have just had a look for the martyr "Antipas" and am wondering if Telemachus is the correct time & match? (There would of course be two Antipases, one of John's time and one of the 3rd church age.) I thought it might be antipope but doesn't seem any match. Satan's seat / Pergamos ~ "tower" ~ babel ~ rome?

 

[Wormwood]

Biblio,

I understand your point, but my point is, your interpretation is based entirely on your own reflections on eras, churches, etc...not on the text itself. The Bible says nothing about these churches reflecting eras in history. So, you have to assume that..and then you have to create some sort of association between a historical period and the description of a particular church in the text. This is all done by the reader, apart from any specific instruction or direction from the actual biblical text. If you have 500 people who hold this view, you will likely have 500 different interpretations of which church corresponds to which age. I don't think that was John's intent, nor the intent of the Holy Spirit when this message was written.

I think Antipas refers to Antipas. Just like the Apostle Paul refers to the Apostle Paul. Trying to say these things point to something else...and not really to the people themselves is going beyond the text and forming an entirely new message from a text rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.

 

[rockytopva]

I said in the OP... As this is Christ's mystery I cannot tell if we are all of the Laodicean constellation, or if all the candlesticks are lit, and that we all have our little light within one of the constellation.

So therefore I do not criticism others viewpoint of the seven churches. My best bet is that this is the Laodicean church age in which started with DL Moody, who kept profits from ministry and bought a large Victorian mansion with the proceeds. This is a first in the timeline of the churches... To get rich off of ministry and is uniquely Laodicean...

 

[Axehead]

Very interesting viewpoints, Rocky.

I wonder why these seven churches were selected? There were more than seven churches in the area, for there was a church in Troas (Acts 20:5), Colossae (Col. 1:2), Hierapolis (Col. 4:13) and probably elsewhere.

More than likely that these seven churches are representative as a "cross-section" of all churches. Based on his personal knowledge of the condition of these churches in the region where he, the apostle John, had ministered, he could use them by the inspiration of the Spirit to portray how insidiously "religion" threatens the Church of Jesus Christ in different ways, and how we must "battle" against such by allowing the life of Jesus Christ to prevail. Interesting that the order that John listed the churches is in a big arc. Maybe that was the postal circuit of the day. :)

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:590]

 

[Bibliocentrist]

wormwood:
It is not true that it is just my interpretation/reflections/assumption/creating, i always as-objectively-as-possible try to see whatever True historical matches/evidences between the text and history there are. It is true that i could be wrong, but there doesn't seem much doubt that the churches evidently also match ages (as well as the time of John and maybe some other things too). The 10 days surely matches the 10 years. The Laodiceans certainly matches the modern western church(es) (commerical, manufacturing, lukewarm, loas + dike, medicine worship, large jewish popn, in order with the other 6 before, etc).
Antipas means "like the father". And/or Telemachus is also/alternatively Almachus. There would have been 2 "Antipases", one in John's time, one in the 3rd church age.
I had similar debates about Arthur's 9 battle sites and they also try to claim it is all just artificial preconculsion theory and ignore all the stark accidentally discovered stark evidences/proofs. What would you accept as Proof?
The bible has lots of cases/examples of alternative/additional layers of meanings/interpretations or analogus types (eg Abraham sacrificed Isaac). Jews have the [prds?] system. How strange this is that usually we are having to argue for "literal" true bible not just figurative/etc, now it is the opposite extreme. How can we "let the text speak for itself" (which i do actually try to do) if we don't study the text, study any/all related history, footnotes, other related texts/parts, the meanings of the names.
Zechariah has 7 x 7 candlesticks = 49/50 the number of the church. There were 7 baskets of pieces left over from feeding 4000. 7 spirits. etc. The 7 churches are thus either/both 7 contemporary places/peoples/types (then &/or now) and/or 7 consecutive times.

text (& history) -- history:
7 ches (betw seen, are, shall be) -- betw then and now
2nd 10 days tribulation -- 10 years Diocletian
3rd Antipas (like father, witness/martyr in midst/among in satans seat/pergamos "tower") -- Telemachus (died in coloseum in rome)?
7th laodiceans (plural, lukewarm, commercial, manufacturing, large jewish popn, medicine worship) -- many churches, medicine worship, commercial/manufacturing, jewish popn, lukewarm.

[ps it is strange that antipas and telemachus were not in the list of christian martyrs on wikipedia.
This is a list of major real/alledged martyrs i composed (there are hundreds/thousands though so is not exhaustive):
john Baptist, jesus, james son of Zebed, stephen, james just, peter (Upsdiedown), andrew (X), timothy?, antipas alban, justin martyr, ursula, telemachus, sebastian (arrows), st edmunds / edward the martyr, joan of arc, thomas More.
Telemachus seems the best match for "like father", faithful witness, martyr, died in midst/among, in satans seat/pergamos "tower", about the right time/order.]

rocky:
yes we can't tell if we are all of the Laodiceans, but we can tell that the laodiceans certainly has many details matches our time, so we are in the time of 7th church which means the end can't be massively too far away.

axehead:
is that an arc or a circle maybe?
there is also possibly some sort of parallel between the churchs
1st nico-laitanes -- 7th lao-diceans
2nd synagogue satan -- 6th syngogue satan

chuck missler said there are also 7 churches Paul wrote to and that they may parallel the 7 in John. (John & Paul also the 2 "mystical" of NT.)