The Sin Bearer was wounded, not made to have sin

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Ghada

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Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


The sins He bare in His body were the wounds of sins unjustly done against Him.

Nowhere in the Bible does God ever 'place upon' Jesus our sins upon the cross. That is a common error of Christians that know nothing about the source of sin, which is only by sinning.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

There is no such thing as some sin 'thing', that God can magically gather up like mysterious spirit-sprinkles and put them somewhere else, than where they were committed. Acts are done and finished. The only acts that can be 'taken and put' from one place to another, is the axe.

Sin is by sinning only. It is an act that once done produces death of the spirit and life of men and angels alike. Once the act of sin is committed, then like any act it is done and gone into history. There is no way to 'pick up' a past act. All that does remains is the price for it in life.

What Jesus bore in His own body was the wounds of sinful men doing unjust sinful things to Him. They began with His arrest, slapping and spitting on the face, scourging, thorns on the head, bearing a wood beam up a hill, and finally crucified on the cross and stabbed in the side.

These are the sins that He bore in His own body. As Thomas put it, they are the prints of sin and injustice done to Him. All that remains of the sins committed against Jesus on the cross, are the wounds resulting from the acts.

They are counted as our works of unjustly sinning against Him, and not just the Jews and Romans personally doing them, because He paid the price for all our sinning by taking their unjust punishments without Himself sinning.

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus did not 'take upon' Himself the 'sins' of the world, but the Word only took upon His soul a body of flesh like all men. What He did take upon Himself at the cross, was the brutal unjust beating and nailing of His body to a tree.

So much bogus Christian traditions comes from use of words that sound really good, but are blind ignorance to the exact wording of the Bible.

God 'putting our sins' on His own Son, and His Son 'taking upon' Himself our sins is only the ignorant transmission of another traditional lie: That sin is some 'thing' independent of an act done by angels and men that sinned. That man is made with the 'sin thing' put into the seed and flesh of man.

There is no sin 'thingy', but only a sinful act, which begins in the heart by lusting against the goodness and holiness of God.

And there certainly is not any flesh on earth made with sin by Jesus Christ.

The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
 

Ghada

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For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

A proper corollary to this teaching, is that 'sin' could not have been placed upon the Son, nor did He 'take sin' upon Himself.

That would make Jesus a sinner having sin on the cross. Jesus did not become a sinner on the cross, but He was made to be sin for us. He was made to be the price for sin for us.

His body and soul was treated as a sinner by God: by the wounds on His body and the separation of the Spirit from His soul and life on the cross. We see in His unjust treatment on the cross the proof of just how exceeding sinful sin is. We see our own sinning in His body by His wounds, and hear our sinning in His words asking why God hath forsaken Him.

It is impossible for 'sin' to have been place upon and taken upon the Son on the cross, because then He would have sin and knew sin.

There is only one way to have and know sin: By sinning. By doing it. As a man with a woman, man can only have and know sin by laying down with the devil in marriage to his lust.

That truly is the sinful bed that sinners make for themselves and lie in.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
 

TonyChanYT

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His body and soul was treated as a sinner by God

God made Jesus to be SIN who knew no sin​

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2 Corinthians 5:
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
What does it mean: God made Jesus to be sin?
Galatians 3:
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree".
God made Jesus to be the curse of sin even though he never sinned.
Romans 8:
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.
God made Jesus to be sin to condemn sin in the flesh even though he never sinned.
Barnes suggested more possibilities:
If the declaration that he was made "sin" does not mean that he was sin itself, or a sinner, or guilty, then it must mean that he was a sin-offering - an offering or a sacrifice for sin; and this is the interpretation which is now generally adopted by expositors; or it must be taken as an abstract for the concrete, and mean that God treated him as if he were a sinner. The former interpretation, that it means that God made him a sin-offering, is adopted by Whitby, Doddridge, Macknight, Rosenmuller, and others; the latter, that it means that God treated him as a sinner, is adopted by Vorstius, Schoettgen, Robinson (Lexicon), Dr. Bull, and others. There are many passages in the Old Testament where the word "sin" is used in the sense of sin-offering, or a sacrifice for sin. Thus, Hosea 4:8, "They eat up the sin of my people;" that is, the sin-offerings; see Ezekiel 43:22, Ezekiel 43:25; Ezekiel 44:29; Ezekiel 45:22-23, Ezekiel 45:25.
A weakness of the sin-offering interpretation is that the two instances of the word "sin" in 2 Corinthians 5:21 have different meanings.
In any case, Paul described the divine exchange: Our sins for the righteousness of Christ.
 

Scott Downey

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Christ was made to be sin, and God the Father tells us
Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

God was righteous in His planned decision for Christ to die on the cross.
Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

But since death could not hold HIM seeing He is the resurrection and the life, He is the I AM, God raised Him up as God had said He would do.
Acts 2
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’


Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

John 18
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

5 They answered Him, “Jesus [a]of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, “I am He. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
 

Scott Downey

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Isaiah 53 and Christ a perfect atonement, Lamb without spot or blemish was made to be sin for us.
God made His soul an offering for sin.
In the OT sacrificial atonement, a perfect animal took the sins of the people and was killed as a substitute for their own sins. This was done as an example for Israel of the One who was to come and take away their sins. That blood sacrifice was done again and again, a reminder of their sin against God. This had to be done according to the pattern God established for without the shedding of blood, as in death, there is no forgiveness of sin. God said Thou shalt make atonement as a command.
If Christ had not died on the cross, we could not have eternal life in heaven with God.

8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.


=======================================
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
 

Ghada

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God made Jesus to be SIN who knew no sin​

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2 Corinthians 5:

What does it mean: God made Jesus to be sin?
If you're asking me, then I gave my teaching on it. If you're not going to read it and respond to it specifically, then make your posts independently. I'm only interested in any possible correction to my reasons given.

In any case, Paul described the divine exchange: Our sins for the righteousness of Christ.
True. It's called repenting of sinning and being converted to God's righteousness, with a whole new and pure heart of Christ.

We cease our old life of ceasing, and now walk as He walked.
 

Ghada

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Christ was made to be sin, and God the Father tells us
Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Jesus did not sin on the cross. That's not how and what God means when the Son was made to be sin for us.

Try reading my teaching on it, if you want to reply to it and show any error in my reasoning of the Bible.
 

Ghada

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If Christ had not died on the cross, we could not have eternal life in heaven with God.
If Jesus had sinned, and His body not resurrected from the dead, then no man could be resurrected unto life with God.

 

Scott Downey

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If Jesus had sinned, and His body not resurrected from the dead, then no man could be resurrected unto life with God.
Jesus did not sin, He was perfect. God though made Christ to be sin for us as a substitutionary atonement.
This was established in the beginning with God as Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for our sins
And he then instituted this in the worship of His people Israel with all the sacrifices of innocent and perfect animals as an example, a pattern of Christ who was to come and be the sacrifice for their sin.

The animals had to be continually offered up, but with Christ it took just the one sacrifice of Himself to perfect the saints forever, so He does not have to continually be offered up.
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered
one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

1 Peter 5:10
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
 
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Scott Downey

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God does not perfect our flesh, it is our spirits which are perfected.


Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [a]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
 

Ghada

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Jesus did not sin, He was perfect. God though made Christ to be sin for us as a substitutionary atonement.
Nowhere does the bible say Jesus Himself was a 'substitute' for anyone else. He died His own death on the cross, not the death of others.
His only 'substitute' is His righteous living for our sinful living, if any man now repents of sinning and takes up our own cross for His sake.



This was established in the beginning with God as Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for our sins
Because of our sinning.

Any man sinning against God, is still dead apart from God.

Once again, you've not addressed any point I've made and shown in error in it. as I said, if you don't want to do so, and just teach your own stuff, then that's fine. Just post it independently or start your own thread.

I'm only interested if anyone can show any failed reasoning I make from the verses I give.
 

Ghada

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God does not perfect our flesh, it is our spirits which are perfected.
He perfects our lives in the flesh, even as He did His own Son's by learning obedience through all temptations.

If we repent of our sinning, then the promised NT heart of Christ is given us with His Spirit, that we may now be free of lust and sinning, even as Jesus was all His life.

To whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
You are correct that it is our spirit and mind that is perfected, so that being resurrected in His likeness we are no longer even tempted to sin anymore.


24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Jesus's natural blood was shed by the unrighteous, and dried up in the dust of earth just like righteous Abel, whose blood was shed by Cain.

His resurrected body and bones are spiritually immortal with the same likeness He had as a man on earth.

His cleansing blood is not His old natural blood, but is His quickening Spirit dwelling in any man, that now repents and believes with a whole new heart to do His righteousness.
 

Scott Downey

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He perfects our lives in the flesh, even as He did His own Son's by learning obedience through all temptations.

If we repent of our sinning, then the promised NT heart of Christ is given us with His Spirit, that we may now be free of lust and sinning, even as Jesus was all His life.

To whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.




You are correct that it is our spirit and mind that is perfected, so that being resurrected in His likeness we are no longer even tempted to sin anymore.



Jesus's natural blood was shed by the unrighteous, and dried up in the dust of earth just like righteous Abel, whose blood was shed by Cain.

His resurrected body and bones are spiritually immortal with the same likeness He had as a man on earth.

His cleansing blood is not His old natural blood, but is His quickening Spirit dwelling in any man, that now repents and believes with a whole new heart to do His righteousness.
"His cleansing blood"
His shed blood signifies His death and is very important and significant part of His work.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

God's Holy Spirit bears witness to the water and the blood. His death on the cross. Meaning the resurrection from the dead was real and the effective atoning sacrifice for sin.

1 John 5
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

John 19
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’


Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
 

Ghada

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"His cleansing blood"
His cleansing blood is that of the Spirit in His resurrection. It's not his natural blood shed on the cross.

His shed blood signifies His death and is very important and significant part of His work.

His shed natural blood ended in His death, and was in the ground as that of Abel. Allowing His natural blood to be shed by the unrighteous unto death, is the necessary part of Him dying without sin, and so being resurrected from the dead unto life.

By His resurrection, His cleansing spiritual blood begins our new life now dead to old sins.

His blood in either case 'signifies' nothing, but is real in both cases.

No man is 'signified' by the blood of Christ, as being alive in sins and trespasses.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.


 

Scott Downey

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Again, His blood obtains for us eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If anyone just spiritualizes everything, the meaning is lost. That language, if anyone notices, is not used, spiritual blood.

The spiritual reality is more real than this temporal one, and God commanded Moses to make everything on earth according to the pattern of the real one in heaven which actually EXISTS. Has substance, not a nebulous vapor. Copy and SHADOW is how the earthly thigs are described as compared to the real ones in heaven.

Hebrews 8
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
 

Ghada

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Again, His blood obtains for us eternal redemption.
True. The blood of Christ washes the soul clean of all sin and purifies the heart of all lust. If we repent of sinning.

He paid the price of death for our past sinning, so that we can be free of the past guilt to live with a clean conscience toward God today and tomorrow.

If anyone just spiritualizes everything, the meaning is lost.
This is true. The same can be said of idealizing, rather than doing.


That language, if anyone notices, is not used, spiritual blood.
This is true. But like other areas of God's doctrine, things can be taught that are not specifically said.

Jesus' natural blood is not drank by any man. It is forbidden by law of God to drink the blood of any creature.

His flesh and bones was resurrected from the dead, not His blood. He was made a quickening Spirit with His resurrected body. His blood washes us clean.

Therefore, it is the blood of His Spirit that must be drank to have His Spirit of life, which is in His unnatural immortal blood: Spiritual blood.

We drink of His blood and Spirit by obeying Him inwardly and outwardly.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

The spiritual reality is more real than this temporal one, and God commanded Moses to make everything on earth according to the pattern of the real one in heaven which actually EXISTS. Has substance, not a nebulous vapor. Copy and SHADOW is how the earthly thigs are described as compared to the real ones in heaven.
True. So with our natural flesh and blood compared to that of our resurrected spiritual bodies.

 
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