The Spirit...and All Authority

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ScottA

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When Jesus said, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:12-15

...He (Jesus) was not saying that the Spirit is not equally God having less authority. But rather, this is like Christ having less authority than the Father.
Call it a mystery, call it whatever you like...but what the scriptures reveal, is that the authority of the one sent, is not the authority of Him who sends. Did you get that? Because it defines two biblical facts:
  1. God is God...which takes nothing away from the fulness of God, including the Son and the Spirit. They are One, and have all authority.
  2. However, lower--the world, in our case--is lower. And if God by whatever name sends His right hand or His left out of the kingdom to that lower state of the world--in that state, neither the Son nor the Spirit have the authority of Him who sent them. Not because they don't have all authority, but because they go to that lower place of the world.
Meaning, that Father, Son, and Spirit are fully enthroned in the kingdom of God, and are God...but the world is lower.

The world is lower.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
 

BarneyFife

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neither the Son nor the Spirit have the authority of Him who sent them... because they go to that lower place of the world.


Where is this in the scriptures?

Certainly not here:

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)


And what purpose does this odd theory serve?


.
 

Karl Peters

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I like the OP and the topic, but it's not exactly right.

Actually the authority of the One sent is the authority of the One who sends!!

This is a really important point to understand.

For example; If a king sends an ambassador with his words, then that ambassador has the fully authority of the king so long as he keeps under the specific instructions of the king!

This is a very good reason why we need to listen to the Lord our God and do as He asks. If we do, we have the full authority of Him who sends us.

A good example of this in the bible is when Elijah defeats the 450 false prophets of Baal, in front of king Ahab. (See 1 Kings 18)

While Elijah was performing the task that the Lord sent him to do, the authority of Elijah was greater than the authority of all those there, including all the people, the 450 prophets of Baal, and Ahab the king. Elijah knew this and could bolding speak out and do what the Lord asked him. The prophets of Baal were defeated. But as soon as the task was complete; what did we see? We see Elijah running scarred!! Elijah now feared Jezebel!

1 Kings 19:13 And he was afraid and arose and ran for his life and came to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.

Now perhaps he should have had a bit more faith that God would protect him even when he no longer was operating under the authority of God. Still Elijah did what he did because the Lord had told him to do it. He understood that while doing what the Lord told him he had the full authority of God.

Of course we all are learning, and Elijah learned too.

In 2 Kings we find Elijah again, and this time he is confronting captains in the kings army send to take him. Well, the kings authority did not exceed the authority of God, so look at what Elijah did to those who got in his way!

2 Kings 1:10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

Of course a bit latter Elijah is told to go with a captain, after a captain came with a humble request.

2 Kings 1: 15 The angel of the LORD said to Elijah, “Go down with him; do not be afraid of him.” So he arose and went down with him to the king.

The angel of the Lord is of course the Holy Spirit, So our job is to listen to the Holy Spirit who brings us the instructions of our Lord Jesus Christ. But we have all the authority of heaven behind us while doing that work!!

Of course we don't really battle with flesh and blood, right, So the fire we bring down from heaven is actually applied to the dark forces of this world when they get in our way, right? So we have been given all authority on heaven and on earth when under the authority of our Lord!
 
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Enoch111

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Call it a mystery, call it whatever you like...but what the scriptures reveal, is that the authority of the one sent, is not the authority of Him who sends.
This is incorrect. God the Father has presently given ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the authority of the Father Himself (who is "the Head" of Christ).

In turn, Christ will hand back all power and authority to the Father, when He hands over the Kingdom of God to the Father (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Then cometh the end, when He [Christ] shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He [Christ] must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet... And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [God the Father] that put all things under Him [Christ], that God may be all in all.

When it says "that God may be all in all" it would appear that that applies to the Father. But since the triune Godhead is ONE GOD, it could also means that it applies to the Godhead.
 

ScottA

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Where is this in the scriptures?

Certainly not here:

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)


And what purpose does this odd theory serve?


.
You know the scriptures.

Tell me then, when was the Son subordinate to the Father; and where does it say that the Spirit does not give of His own authority, but that which is Christ's authority?

The latter I gave you in the Original Post.

As for the purpose, it is not a "theory", but a biblical fact. But many do not know with whom and when the authority of God rest and why the Son or the Spirit would not have all authority all the time, or even if they are God because for a time they do not.
 

ScottA

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This is incorrect. God the Father has presently given ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the authority of the Father Himself (who is "the Head" of Christ).

In turn, Christ will hand back all power and authority to the Father, when He hands over the Kingdom of God to the Father (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Then cometh the end, when He [Christ] shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He [Christ] must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet... And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [God the Father] that put all things under Him [Christ], that God may be all in all.

When it says "that God may be all in all" it would appear that that applies to the Father. But since the triune Godhead is ONE GOD, it could also means that it applies to the Godhead.
Not incorrect, but misunderstood.

What you (and others) have stated is the end of the matter, and it is indeed true, even now for some time.

But many read the scriptures and do not understand that the Son coming as a man in the likeness of flesh made Him subordinate for a time to the Father who sent Him, and thereby think that the Father and the Son are not even One, or that the Son is Not God. And the same mistake is made regarding the Spirit for taking of what is Christ's and not the authority of the Spirit, and doing the will of Christ who sends Him to us who are born again of the same spirit.
 

BarneyFife

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You know the scriptures.

Tell me then, when was the Son subordinate to the Father; and where does it say that the Spirit does not give of His own authority, but that which is Christ's authority?

The latter I gave you in the Original Post.

As for the purpose, it is not a "theory", but a biblical fact. But many do not know with whom and when the authority of God rest and why the Son or the Spirit would not have all authority all the time, or even if they are God because for a time they do not.
Yeah, I get it now. Sorry.

It's just that al of this came on the heels of the flirtation with Gnosticism in the other thread and I overreacted. Again, sorry.

I think I made too much of the present tense you were using. :)
 
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EloyCraft

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Authority. Kind of counter intuitive dynamic operating. Humanly speaking.authority is naturally given to parents. Then whoever the parents give authority to, the children will give as well. Teachers clergy etc.

Authority is required to form conscience. That authority can be given to whoever those in formation give it to. Today it's celebrity entertainers
 
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Karl Peters

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Yes, that is now true and has been for 2000 years, which began soon after He first came. But that was after He was subordinate to the Father in coming.

We understand that Jesus Christ was always the Word of God - right?

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If we are in the Light (Him) we should comprehend that the authority, even the authority to create all things, came through the Word of God! And so life was always in Him!

There is has been a failure to comprehend this, as show in the above verse, but it was always the case. The cross was not about putting Jesus Christ in the throne. The Father had placed His Son Jesus Christ in charge from the beginning. The cross was to enable us to comprehend what already was! Sin (darkness) had been getting in our way.

Ps 2:6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

Way back in the Psalms God had it written that He had (not was going to) installed His anointed on the throne!! And least anyone think it reffers to anyone but Jesus Christ the Son of God, here is the next verse:

Ps 2:7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

And as we already read in Jn 1:1 - that decree from the Father to the Son was "In the beginning" - and surely He well tell us about that decree, if we are will to listen, of course. So we should now understand that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was given all authority on heaven and earth, as "The Word of God". We should understand that the authority of a King comes through His words. What a King says in law!

Since authority comes through the words of Him who is in charge - God - The Father- The Son - The Spirit; the words of God (the authority of God) flows in that direction. It then flows to us if we listen to Him (but only if with listen to Him) This is something the Centurion understood - that if a person is under authority (listens and does what he is told, then he can tell others under him what to do). The Centurion understood that authority comes from being under authority!!

Mat 8:9 “For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.

The Centurion of great faith understood that Jesus like himself, was a man under authority (been given instructions and put in command), so Jesus Christ could say to a servant of His (the Angels of heaven) go and it would be done.

So if we also are servants of Jesus Christ and listen to Him; He can tell us to go and we will go and with all the authority of the King of kings, Jesus Christ.

How is it that Moses parted the red sea?? It was because Moses was given the authority of God by 'The Word of God' (Jesus Christ)! That was more than 2000 years ago! The first born does not refer to 2000 years ago but at the beginning of creation. He was the first born of all creation in the beginning!

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things [fn]to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

2 Peter 3:4 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

The promise of eternal life, which is Jesus Christ, was from the beginning, before heaven and earth were created. It's not from 2000 years ago. Jesus, the light, was raised from nothing in the beginning!

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

What happened to Enoch who walked with God and was no more? Where did Elijah go in thew whirlwind? Why did Jesus give a story about being the God of the living?

Luke 20: 37,38 “But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. “Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

Notice - Jesus in the flesh before the cross that the dead would be raised, but that they are raised (present tense) and so Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob, were raised and living at that time of that statement!! The cross was a sacrifice for all men that we too might believe and get to personally know the Christ - like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Meaning if we start listening to Jesus Christ, The Word of God, then we will be raised from the dead and be living with Him!! It will make us like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah, Enoch... and all those who by faith listen to The Word of God! It has been that way from the beginning, but darkness has caused many to not comprehend.
 
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ScottA

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We understand that Jesus Christ was always the Word of God - right?

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If we are in the Light (Him) we should comprehend that the authority, even the authority to create all things, came through the Word of God! And so life was always in Him!

There is has been a failure to comprehend this, as show in the above verse, but it was always the case. The cross was not about putting Jesus Christ in the throne. The Father had placed His Son Jesus Christ in charge from the beginning. The cross was to enable us to comprehend what already was! Sin (darkness) had been getting in our way.

Ps 2:6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

Way back in the Psalms God had it written that He had (not was going to) installed His anointed on the throne!! And least anyone think it reffers to anyone but Jesus Christ the Son of God, here is the next verse:

Ps 2:7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

And as we already read in Jn 1:1 - that decree from the Father to the Son was "In the beginning" - and surely He well tell us about that decree, if we are will to listen, of course. So we should now understand that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was given all authority on heaven and earth, as "The Word of God". We should understand that the authority of a King comes through His words. What a King says in law!

Since authority comes through the words of Him who is in charge - God - The Father- The Son - The Spirit; the words of God (the authority of God) flows in that direction. It then flows to us if we listen to Him (but only if with listen to Him) This is something the Centurion understood - that if a person is under authority (listens and does what he is told, then he can tell others under him what to do). The Centurion understood that authority comes from being under authority!!

Mat 8:9 “For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.

The Centurion of great faith understood that Jesus like himself, was a man under authority (been given instructions and put in command), so Jesus Christ could say to a servant of His (the Angels of heaven) go and it would be done.

So if we also are servants of Jesus Christ and listen to Him; He can tell us to go and we will go and with all the authority of the King of kings, Jesus Christ.

How is it that Moses parted the red sea?? It was because Moses was given the authority of God by 'The Word of God' (Jesus Christ)! That was more than 2000 years ago! The first born does not refer to 2000 years ago but at the beginning of creation. He was the first born of all creation in the beginning!

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things [fn]to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

2 Peter 3:4 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

The promise of eternal life, which is Jesus Christ, was from the beginning, before heaven and earth were created. It's not from 2000 years ago. Jesus, the light, was raised from nothing in the beginning!

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

What happened to Enoch who walked with God and was no more? Where did Elijah go in thew whirlwind? Why did Jesus give a story about being the God of the living?

Luke 20: 37,38 “But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. “Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

Notice - Jesus in the flesh before the cross that the dead would be raised, but that they are raised (present tense) and so Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob, were raised and living at that time of that statement!! The cross was a sacrifice for all men that we too might believe and get to personally know the Christ - like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Meaning if we start listening to Jesus Christ, The Word of God, then we will be raised from the dead and be living with Him!! It will make us like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah, Enoch... and all those who by faith listen to The Word of God! It has been that way from the beginning, but darkness has caused many to not comprehend.
Word.

This is understanding, knowing the times.
 
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Karl Peters

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Word.

This is understanding, knowing the times.

The Lord once told me, "Understanding is understanding I am Understanding!"

He has the funniest and brilliant ways to put things. The Great I Am is Understanding!

Prov 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your intimate friend.

Prov 8:4 “Counsel is mine and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, power is mine.

Jesus Christ, The Word of God, God, the Wonderful Counselor, the King of kings, and the Great I am; also goes by the name Understanding. We can talk with Him and become the friend of God/understanding
 
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