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The Ten Lost Tribes Theory

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by fivesense, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    If the earnest student will weigh carefully every passage in the Greek Scriptures in which Israel is mentioned he will come to the conclusion that the term always includes the whole nation. Peter speaks of them. Paul speaks of the twelve tribes offering divine service in the land, and James writes to the twelve tribes in the dispersion. The attempt to distinguish between them now is altogether contrary to God's latest revelation about them.We should always distinguish between "Jacob," the Circumventer, and "Israel," the Upright-with-El. Jacob and his sons are always connected with the flesh and its striving, but Israel with submission to God's mercy. The lesson, that Abraham's physical seed is not called to enjoy the promises, had been clearly taught in the choice of Isaac and the repudiation of Ishmael. It was repeated in the case of Jacob and Esau. Now God, however, deals with all the sons of Jacob, and, however undeserving most of them were, they are all included in His future plan of blessing the other nations through them, hence are all sons of Israel, as well as sons of Jacob. "Blessed is the man who has the God of Jacob for his help" (Psa.146:5), for God acted toward him in utter grace. When the nation insisted on using its own strength He called them sons of Jacob. But when He views them as the channels of His blessing, then they are the sons of Israel. It is only those who have faith, however, who receive the promises.

    Consequently all descendants of the patriarch Jacob are Israelites. The temporary restriction of this term, when in contrast to the southern kingdom, cannot be forced on the occurrences of the word in the Greek Scriptures. Paul was an Israelite, although of Benjamin, which was reckoned with Judah (Phil.3:5). The very first occurrence (Matt.2:6), shows that out of Judah shall come a Ruler, Who shall be shepherding Israel. This must include the whole nation, for it refers to our Lord Himself. The land, as a whole, was called the land of Israel (Matt.2:20,21). Joseph considers Judea to be a part of this land. The cities are called the cities of Israel (Matt.10:23). The inhabitants are called the "people of Israel" (Matt.2:6; Luke 2:32; Acts 4:10,27; 13:17,24), even in the sanctuary at Jerusalem which was not in the territory of the ten tribes. They are called the "sons of Israel" (Matt.27:9; Luke 1:16; Acts 5;21; 7:23,37; 9:15; 10:36; 2 Cor.3:7,13; Heb.11:22; Rev.2:14; 7:4; 21:12), though it is often clear that the people in Jerusalem and Judah are included. Even the term "house of Israel" (Matt.10:6; 15:24; Acts 2:36; 7:42), is freely used by Peter in speaking to the people at Jerusalem, whom he addresses, not as Jews, but as Israelites (Acts 2:22). Indeed, this form of address is freely used, even when there were no strangers in the city (Acts 3:12). Gamaliel addresses the Sanhedrin as Israelites (Acts 5:35). Paul used this term to address the Jews in Pisidian Antioch (Acts 13:16). Jews from the province of Asia used it in inciting the mob against Paul (Acts 21:28).

    It is sometimes asserted that the Jews, not the Israelites, are guilty of crucifying Christ. But is it not safer to accept the testimony of Peter, who was present at the time? He charged Herod, Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the peoples of Israel, with the crucifixion (Acts 4:27).

    Our Lord often referred to the nation simply as Israel. He found no faith like that of the centurion in Israel (Matt.8:10; Luke 5:9) The throngs exclaim, "It never appeared thus in Israel" (Matt.9:33)! John the Baptist was shown to Israel (Luke 1:80). Simeon anticipated the consolation of Israel (Luke 2:25,32,34). Cleopas, on the way to Emmaus, said that they had expected our Lord to redeem Israel (Luke 24:21). John the Baptist came that our Lord might be manifested to Israel (John 1:31). Nicodemus was called by our Lord a teacher of Israel (John 3:10). Our Lord was hailed as the King of Israel (John 1:49; 12:13). The disciples asked Him if He would, at that time, restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

    As an independent nation, the rival of Judah, the ten tribes no longer exist. They were dispersed, not only among the nations, but many of them went over to Judah at the time of the division, others joined later, and many had been left in the land, and these also fell to Judah. In this way, seeing that Benjamin remained with them, and most of Levi clung to them as well, it is more than probable that actual descendants of Judah were in the minority in the land, and it was far more correct to call them Israel, even though many of the ten tribes, as well as the two, were dispersed among the nations even at that time.

    Outside the land there is no least hint that Israel was a nation, or that it was distinct from Judah. The separation between the tribes is utterly ignored. There is nothing about any ten tribes or two tribes, but always twelve tribes. Peter speaks of them. Paul speaks of the twelve tribes offering divine service in the land, and James writes to the twelve tribes in the dispersion. The attempt to distinguish between them now is altogether contrary to God's latest revelation about them.

    We are now in a position to see why the term "Jew" or Judah-ite was, and is, applied to Israelites without much regard to the tribe from which they sprang. When Jeroboam tried to force idol worship upon the ten tribes, those who wished to remain true to Yahweh, and worship Him in Jerusalem, would be identified with the men of Judah, and called Jews. The same was true of those whose hearts stirred them up to return to the land. Thus the term Jew acquired a special religious significance. No longer is it Judah and Israel. Now it is Jew and Greek which are contrasted. The distinction is not one of race or nationality, but of religious conviction. The Greek was the cultured, the philosophic man, even if he were a Hebrew. But the Jew was the religious man who clung fast to the traditions and customs of his ancestors, and was "orthodox" in his attitude toward the Scriptures. He was called a "Jew" because Judah was the nucleus for all such.

    In the book of Esther the Israelites are called Jews (Esther 8:17) because the issue was a religious one. And so it will be in the future also. "In those days ten men, from all the languages of the nations shall hold fast, and shall hold fast the hem of a man who is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we hear that Elohim is with you" (Zech.8:23). God will be with Israel in those days. Here is an "identity" which cannot be gainsaid. So also, our Lord's declaration that salvation is of the Jews. The religious Israelite, whatever his tribe, is now properly described as a Jew. The argument which is based upon the assumption that the Jews are Judah and not Israel has no foundation in God's Word. Both in the land and in the dispersion Israelites not of the tribe of Judah are called "Jews." Those who have left the God of their fathers have been assimilated by the nations, but those who hold fast to their heritage are "Jews," no matter from what tribe they may spring. And, at the end time, when an innumerable throng of them are saved, they come out of "all nations and tribes and peoples and languages" (Rev.7:9). We are living in the era of the nations (the "times of the gentiles"), and blessing for Israel awaits the day of her deliverance by Christ, her Messiah.


    fivesense
     
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  2. Paul

    Paul Member

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    You might not know where they are but God does and so do I. The vast majority of them do not know who they are. That is even true for the majority of our brother Judah. There is an ever growing number of them that are discovering there true identity.
     
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  3. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    In Jewish tradition, this subject is also called THE TWO HOUSE THEOLOGY.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_House_Theology

    Apparently Jewish scholars have been wrestling with this notion for quite a while. I wonder if any of their thoughts are appropriate to this conversation.
     
  4. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    I have always found this a very interesting subject.

    I confess to not having spent a lot of time studying it.

    I confess to taking the easy way out because (The Lord Himself) claims to have in reserve 12,000 people from the 12 tribes of Israel who will perform some important end times functions.

    Like I said , knowing that , I just trust The Lord knows who they are and I have never tried to analyze it.

    But I am still very interested in all theories anyone has. I will not attack anyone who may have unusual views. Sometimes unusual views prompt deeper study.

    My limited understanding of where the 12,000 from The 12 Tribes will come from are as follows:

    1. We have no way of knowing.

    2. They are interspersed amongst those we call modern day Jews (Judah).

    3. They are descended from the first Christians (who were all Jews) and could very well be some of us .

    4. If they are among us they do not know it , we do not know it , and only at the time of Sealing (the 144,000) will anyone know who they are.

    Thanks
    Martin

    ======================================================


    fivesense

    I have always found this passage intriguing. Thanks.
     
  5. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    fivesense

    I will continue studying your post #1 over the next couple of days. Thanks. If I understand your thinking you lean toward the possibility the 12 tribes are probably contained somewhere within what we commonly refer to as Jews (in modern day).

    The small amount I know has (sort of) leads me to the same conclusion.

    Martin
     
  6. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    The Apostle Paul quotes Elijah as complaining to God about everyone jumping ship. But God speak out against the lie that He won't fulfill the Covenant, and says I have reserved unto me a remnant. The people of the Covenant are the only ones qualified for rule and priesthood on the earth when the Lord returns. I am sure He has been able to order the steps of a righteous Jewish man and his generations quite easily over the centuries. It may be difficult for us to apprehend, a pureblood Jew, but they are pretty punctilious about geneology, aren't they. How much more so is God's leading those of Israel who are living by faith as others before them have.
    fivesense
     
  7. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Faith:
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    We have a single, unified Bible:

    [bible=Ezekiel 37:19]
    Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    [/bible]

    I really caution the use of such a blanket statement as above. I think Ezekiel 37 - neglected to be mentioned in the study - pretty clearly delineates the status of the two houses regardless of believe as to whether we know whom all of both sticks are or not. The conditions of these verses and the following ones (which I did not include for length reasons - I encourage the reader here to read them for himself/herself) give us a combined Israel that is simply not here yet.

    I believe a lot of good about the modern nation state of Israel, but I think fundamentalist Christianity makes a big mistake when they presume to accept anyone that calls his or herself a "Jew" is someone who will one day certainly believe in God. That's not to say that I don't believe eyes will be opened when the time comes, but we need to be careful to put our faith in men and women who don't believe in the Savior who is part of the same full God.

    As for my personal beliefs on the subject, I have no shame in saying that I do believe in an Israel and Judah that is scattered abroad. I don't think NT writers referencing the whole as scattered abroad refutes the OT writers and I certainly don't see where we should know each and every one absolute. Unfortunately, I think too much Biblical history is clouded by a subtly-accepted based on modern man's version of history. IE: We neatly try to box up humanity for each era but in reality there are many, many unexplained archaeological finds and little quirks about history that just don't fit the narrative.
     
  8. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Hi Hammer, what is this "blanket statement" you speak of? Please advise...
    fivesense
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    It would be the one I quoted. :) It's a blanket statement made about the NT totally ignoring the context of the NT in the OT which clearly talks about the two as separate on at least this one occasion.

    Unfortunately the above quoted statement makes it entirely too easy to draw the false conclusion that the two houses aren't distinct simply because it's not directly stated in the NT.
     
  10. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Thank you for responding and clarifying. As the text of Ezek goes, it is the resultant combination of the two into one that is the effective portion of the operation of God. Ultimately, there will only be one nation, but as you point out there is the distinction God has made for His purposes that cannot be ignored.
    fivesense
     
  11. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Theories of the lost tribes abound. Some believe that Great Britain and the United States are chiefly composed of the ten tribes (or were at one time).
    Some evidence of that is contained in the Biblical book of Jeremiah.

    Here's how the theory goes. At the end of his ministry Jeremiah was released to go where he wished. He took some relatives of the royal court and shipped out to parts unknown. While they were packing, however, Jeremiah took a stone from the temple, or throne or whatever (I don't remember exactly). The Bible story ends there, but the legend continues.

    According to legend, Jeremiah landed in Scotland. The ladies he brought with him intermarried with the Kings of the land and the stone was placed under the throne of the King of Scotland as evidence of the trip. The throne of David, therefore, never ceases to have a man to sit on it because its been transplanted to Scotland and/or England. The Brits stole the stone when they invaded Scotland and took the stone to England. Recently they gave it back.

    It's called the STONE OF SCONE. Google it. It's a fun evenings' research if nothing else.

    Don't know if I buy the story myself, but its kind of a cool Judeo-Christian legend to think about.

    Hey, we've got lots of magical things too......don't need X-Files to get spooky.
     
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    One thing is for certain. It's very easy to tell who has really studied all of God's Word, and who has not.

    I King 11:28-39
    28 And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph.
    29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:
    30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
    31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
    32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)
    33 Because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and My judgments, as did David his father.
    34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes:
    35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
    36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David My servant may have a light alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put My name there.
    37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
    38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in My ways, and do that is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
    39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.
    (KJV)

    It's impossible to try and teach the Biblical subject of the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" to folks who think they already know everything, especially when their character is of a type that they will bluff to try and get the unlearned to think they know what they're talking about.

    Those who have actually studied their Bible are not so easy to bluff on this subject though; that's why HammerStone would declare blanket statements like Fivesense put out doesn't have any weight to it.


    I King 12:20-31
    20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
    21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
    22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
    23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
    24 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from Me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.
    25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
    26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
    27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
    28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
    29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
    30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
    31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
    (KJV)

    God split Israel into two separate kingdoms in Rehoboam's days (son of Solomon from house of David and tribe of Judah). After the split, they even held WAR against each other, which is a lot of what the Book of 1 and 2 Kings is about past the 1 Kings 12 chapter.

    WHO would NOT know about that Bible history? ANS: those who have NOT ACTUALLY read and studied it in God's Word.


    2 Chr 11:1-17
    1 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam.
    2 But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
    3 Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,
    4 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of Me. And they obeyed the words of the LORD, and returned from going against Jeroboam.
    5 And Rehoboam dwelt in Jerusalem, and built cities for defence in Judah.
    6 He built even Bethlehem, and Etam, and Tekoa,
    7 And Bethzur, and Shoco, and Adullam,
    8 And Gath, and Mareshah, and Ziph,
    9 And Adoraim, and Lachish, and Azekah,
    10 And Zorah, and Aijalon, and Hebron, which are in Judah and in Benjamin fenced cities.
    11 And he fortified the strong holds, and put captains in them, and store of victual, and of oil and wine.
    12 And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side.
    13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
    14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
    15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
    16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
    17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
    (KJV)

    After that point in history, the three tribed "kingdom of Judah" in the south at Judea, under the king of Judah Rehoboam (Solomon's son) was made up only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and a remnant of people from the ten tribes that moved south to join with Judah.

    But the ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" in the northern lands, under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephrain (house of Joseph), was called "Israel" at that point, and only referred to the ten tribes under Jeroboam. Terms like "all Israel" or "Jacob", still referred to all 12 tribes, even for today, though the two houses are STILL not yet put back together to this day. The original kingdom of Israel before Rehoboam and Jeroboam, when ALL 12 tribes were under one kingdom, is STILL apart to this day.
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    A believer of God's Word that has actually studied what God's Word says on this matter from the Old Testament histories, will also understand how to interpret the following verses in the New Testament of God's Word.

    Acts 2:36
    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, Whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    (KJV)

    Apostle Peter said that to both Jews of the house of Judah, and to remnants of the ten tribes that were present. Yet historically, the majority of the ten tribes were still scattered abroad, outside the holy land, even as the Jewish historian Josephus and many Jewish rabbi have testified. Peter's Message is to ALL Israel, is the idea, regardless of what tribe, and regardless that the majority of Israel was still scattered abroad.


    Acts 7:42
    42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
    (KJV)

    Biblical context means everything. The above verse by the Christian prophet Stephen is a quote from the Book of Amos. All 12 tribes were together under Moses in the wildnerness, which is how "house of Israel" was meant BEFORE the 1 Kings 12 split. Yet in Amos more specific labels like "house of Joseph" are also given, pointing to context AFTER the 1 Kings 12 kingdom split. And in that Amos context, the "house of Israel" means only the ten tribes under Jeroboam (of Joseph) forward.


    Heb 8:8
    8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    (KJV)

    Even the NT Greek does not get away from that separate distinction between the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" written in the prophets.
     
  14. JarBreaker

    JarBreaker New Member

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    Regardless of anyone's inability to see this solely from scripture, people REALLY need to begin to take a hard look at our modern world and the shape of things as far as where our country is headed.


    What happened throughout the OT, to both the house of Judah and the house of Israel ?

    They WOULD NOT turn from their whoring after idols.

    Then .... the Islamic invader came and carried them away.
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Trying to understand what's happenning today still won't be properly understood without going back in God's Word to study OT history and the prophets, for Islam is not acting alone, and not even the heart of the real problems today. Many of Esau is confederate with Ishmael and with the "synagogue of Satan".

    Indeed, many of God's people have fallen away from Him to worship the things of this world, and what they've made by their hands. But a remnant is still faithful, and is aware, and is given to understand. God has preserved a remnant of Israel that knows His Truth through all generations. That is Bible prophecy too. The rest, which is the majority, are still blinded.
     
  16. Paul

    Paul Member

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    The only thing lost about the ten tribes is they have lost themselves. They do not realize who they are, but they are all around us. Some of them are waking up at this time and discovering who they are as God's people. That is true also of many of our brother Judah who have also lost their identity but will someday discover who the really are.
     
  17. RND

    RND New Member

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    Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; 5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 ΒΆ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Good time to bring up that Rom.9 Scripture and learn what it really says... instead of pulling out a verse from it to try and make it say something else.

    Rom 9:1-13
    1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    The subject? Apostle Paul's flesh brethren, Israelites.

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Who doesn't know Abraham had other children not of Israel? Israelites came only through Abraham's seed of Isaac, through Jacob who was named Israel by God. Abraham's son Ishmael did not come through Isaac. That's how the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham continued, through his seed of Isaac.

    Also, who doesn't know that people of the nations also crept into Israel long ago, and even among Judah and also claimed heritage of Israel, taking the name Jew long ago? (Esther 8:17; Johsuah 9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 1-2).

    So there's actually TWO concepts here Paul is covering. One is about the Promise given through Abraham, which passed to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to Jacob's (Israel) sons. That's about responsibility of The Gospel Promise being given through God's chosen people of Israel. And that's one of the matters Paul is talking about here, and will even continue about in the next Rom.9 verses.

    In verse 8, Paul is letting us know that Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which was Israel's inheritance of God's Birthright to Israel, was not only for them, but also for any Gentile that would believe. That's how it is that the children of the Promise are 'counted' as the seed, meaning a spiritual seed in Christ Jesus, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, together as one. That in NO WAY ever removed the Promise from the remnant of flesh Israel that has believed.

    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    (KJV)

    Even while Esau and Jacob were still unborn in Rebecca's womb, God told her two manner of people were in her womb, and that the elder Esau would serve the younger Jacob (Gen.25). That was showing God's Salvation through election, not by works. In Malachi 1 God shows He chose Israel over Esau.

    And later in Rom.11, Apostle Paul reveals there still exists a remnant of the seed of Israel which God has preserved, a remnant according to the election of grace.

    And that remnant of flesh Israel has had, and still has MUCH to do with God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ. Through Israel's rebellion of old, and their scattering among the Gentiles, themselves loosing their heritage of Israel and becoming 'as' Gentiles, when it was time for Christ to be preached to them, many of them have come back to The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and many Gentiles with them. God foretold that would happen in the Book of Hosea, which is an idea Apostle Paul also quotes from Hosea later in Romans 9:25.

    That is the "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become per the Gen.48. It involves the scattering of the ten tribes of Israel especially, for that's who Hosea was especially speaking about, the "house of Israel" after the kingdom split. We in the West are those "multitude of nations" under Christ Jesus. And some of us who have a heritage from the founders of the western Christian nations come from those scattered ten tribes of Israel, and have lived as Gentiles, among Gentiles, and mostly thinking we are Gentiles. The majority of Jews have always known their heritage of Israel, so I'm not speaking of them on this point, even though God also scattered the majority of the house of Judah among the Gentiles later.

    So Christ's Kingdom does already have a beginning structure on this earth today, primarily in the West. But it is still not the future Kingdom He promised in final, for He has not returned yet to reign over all nations with His elect priests and kings. We can still see many rebellious nations that are against Him on this earth today. And those of His enemies are being allowed by God to usurp the power of His people in the West especially today. Christ's enemies know about this, which is why the Christian West has constantly been under attack through its history, and still is today. That will change in our near future though, after their fake 'rock' is thrown into the pit at Christ's coming. I can see believers on Christ Jesus outside the Christian West that have had to live under the rules of pagan and communist governments for the longest having the most joy when that time comes.
     
  19. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    I revived this thread in the interest of asking if anyone here may feel that the 10 "lost" tribes are distributed among Christians and we do not know who (they )(we) are yet.

    My question is based on the possibility that remnants of the tribes have been preserved (by God) throughout the world , and then during the endtimes he will select and seal them (the 144,000 of Revelation)

    Thanks for any replies. I do not have strong opinions either way , just curious if anyone else feels it is a possibility.

    Thanks.
    A. Martin W.
     
  20. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    I don't know how else it can be. My intuitions tells me that you couldn't find a 100 Israelite;s that can produce a paper trail of their blood line to Judah in 34 AD let alone the other tribes.
    The Lord knows exactly where, and who, everyone is. He counteth the number of the stars; He calleth them all by their names. 144,000 of His elect? His end time remnant? not a problem.
     
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