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The Three that Bear Witness 1 John 5:7-9

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by OneIsTheWord, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. OneIsTheWord

    OneIsTheWord Member

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    Greetings
    I was asked how did Christ come?
    This was my answer
    In 1 John 5:7-9 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
    And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

    In John 16:12-15, I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
    However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truths; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
    He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
    All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

    Then in 1John 4:6, We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this, we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    In John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus the Christ.

    Note
    That which is born of the flesh is flesh. John 3:6
    [​IMG]
    This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6
    And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:8
    But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. John 19:34; See Zech 12: 10.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hi @OneIsTheWord and welcome to a great forum. You wrote much to ponder. Awesome verses for pro-Trinity...which I happen to believe.
     
  3. OneIsTheWord

    OneIsTheWord Member

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    Greetings
    thank you
    Luke 1:37-38 (KJV)For with God nothing shall be impossible.
    2 Timothy 2:20-21

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    The Three that Bear Witness 1 John 5:7-9
    What do they bear witness to?
     
  5. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    1 Jn 5:7

    The fact is that John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.

    The only other Bibles which include this passage that I am aware of are the Catholic Douay Version (A. D. 1609), the New Life Version (1993), the New King James Version (1982), and the King James II Version (1982). These last two are modern translations which have as their stated purpose the preservation of the text and traditions of the King James Version and which, therefore, translate from the thoroughly discredited Received Text.

    Of these four Bibles the KJIIV at least indicates the unscriptural addition of 1 John 5:7 by writing it in all italics. And buried in the Preface is the admission that 1 Jn 5:7 (among others) is not to be accepted as true Scripture.

    The New Life Version, however, claims to put an asterisk (*) to mark words or passages which are “missing in some of the early writings.” And it does so in such passages as Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11, but it does not do so at 1 Jn 5:7.

    Since Greek was the “universal language” at the time the New Testament writers wrote and for many years thereafter, the earliest copies of the manuscripts of the New Testament were most often written in Koine Greek. Therefore the very best manuscripts (and the oldest) of New Testament writings in existence today are the most ancient (4th and 5th century) Greek manuscripts. These early Greek manuscripts were later translated into various other languages, including Latin. Although Bible translators often compare these ancient Greek manuscripts with NT manuscripts of other languages, they nearly always translate from a text that was composed from the oldest and best Greek manuscripts.

    Respected trinitarian scholar, minister (Trinity Church), Professor (University of Glasgow and Marburg University), author (The Daily Study Bible Series, etc.), and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay, states the following about this passage:

    Note on 1 John 5:7

    “In the Authorized Version [KJV] there is a verse which we have altogether omitted [in Barclay’s NT translation]. It reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”

    “The Revised Version omits this verse, and does not even mention it in the margin, and none of the newer translations includes it. It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text.

    “The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome’s original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it. The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts.

    “How then did it get into the text? Originally it must have been a scribal gloss or comment in the margin. Since it seemed to offer good scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity [and since there was no good scriptural evidence for this new doctrine introduced by the Roman church in 325 A. D.], through time it came to be accepted by theologians as part of the text, especially in those early days of scholarship before the great manuscripts were discovered. [More likely it was written in the margin of an existing manuscript with the intention that future trinitarian copyists actually add it to all new copies.]

    “But how did it last, and how did it come to be in the Authorized [King James] Version? The first Greek testament to be published was that of Erasmus in 1516. Erasmus was a great scholar and, knowing that this verse was not in the original text, he did not include it in his first edition. By this time, however, theologians [trinitarians, of course] were using the verse. It had, for instance, been printed in the Latin Vulgate of 1514. Erasmus was therefore criticized for omitting it. His answer was that if anyone could show him a Greek manuscript which had the words in it, he would print them in his next edition. Someone did produce a very late and very bad text in which the verse did occur in Greek; and Erasmus, true to his word but very much against his judgment and his will, printed the verse in his 1522 edition.

    “The next step was that in 1550 Stephanus printed his great edition of the Greek New Testament. This 1550 edition of Stephanus was called - he gave it that name himself - The Received Text, and it was the basis of the Authorized Version [KJV] and of the Greek text for centuries to come. That is how this verse got into the Authorized Version. There is, of course, nothing wrong with it [if the trinity were really true as trinitarians like Barclay himself want!]; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it and that it is a much later commentary on, and addition to, his words; and that is why all modern translations omit it.” - pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976. [Material in brackets and emphasis added by me.]

    And respected (and highly trinitarian) New Testament Bible scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson writes:

    “For there are three who bear witness (hoti treis eisin hoi marturountes). At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus [Received Text], found in no Greek MS. [Manuscript] save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome [famed trinitarian, 342-420 A. D.] did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity [ ? - - see UBS Commentary below] and Priscillian [excommunicated 380 A. D., executed 385 A. D.] has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and [ms.] 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. The spurious addition is: en toi ouranoi ho pater, ho logos kai to hagion pneuma kai houtoi hoi treis hen eisin kai treis eisin hoi marturountes en tei gei (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and the three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth). The last clause belongs to verse 8. The fact and the doctrine of the Trinity do not depend on this spurious addition.” - p. 240, Vol. VI, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.
     
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  6. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    1 Jn 5:7 continued

    The highly respected (and trinitarian) United Bible Societies has published a commentary on the New Testament text. It discusses 1 John 5:5-7 as follows:

    “After μαρτυροῦντες [“bearing witness”] the Textus Receptus [Received Text] adds the following: ἓν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα. καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἐν εἰσι. (8) καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῇ γῆ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

    “(A) EXTERNAL EVIDENCE. (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except four, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. These four manuscripts are ms. 61 [this is ms. 34 in the earlier numbering system used by Robertson above], a sixteenth century manuscript formerly at Oxford, now at Dublin; ms. 88, a twelfth century manuscript at Naples, which has the passage written in the margin by a modern hand; ms. 629 [ms. 162, Robertson], a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican; and ms. 635, an eleventh century manuscript which has the passage written in the margin by a seventeenth century hand.

    “(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [certainly at the Nicene Council of 325]). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

    “(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied A. D. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before A. D. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vercellensis [ninth century]).

    “The earliest instance of the passage is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. ....

    “(B) INTERNAL PROBABILITIES. (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

    “(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.” - pp. 716-718, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.

    Notice the comments concerning this disputed passage found in the respected trinitarian reference work, The Expositor's Greek Testament:

    It says in a note for 1 John 5:7 (as found in the Received Text and the KJV):

    "A Latin interpolation, certainly spurious. (I) Found in no Gk. MS. [Greek Manuscript] except two late minuscules - 162 (Vatican), 15th c., the Lat. Vg. [Latin Vulgate] Version with a Gk. text adapted thereto; 34 (Trin. Coll., Dublin), 16th c. (2) Quoted by none of the Gk Fathers. Had they known it, they would have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [325 A.D.]). (3) Found in none of the early versions - in Vg. but not as it [originally] left the hands of St. Jerome." - p. 195, Vol. 5, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

    I also see that my trinitarian-edited and published King James Version, Collins Press, 1955 (with center column of notes and references) also gives no indication whatsoever of the clear, spurious nature of 1 John 5:7! This is in spite of the fact that the original translators of 1611, themselves, and all the many revisers for the last 400+ years have known that this verse was not added to the scriptures until many hundred years after John wrote this letter.

    Noted Lutheran scholar and Bible translator, William F. Beck (trinitarian, of course) states in a footnote for 1 John 5:7 in his The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 printing:

    “Our oldest manuscripts do not have vv. 7b-8a: “in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three testifying on earth.” Early in the 16th century an editor translated these words from Latin manuscripts and inserted them in his Greek New Testament. Erasmus took them from this Greek New Testament and inserted them in the third edition (1522) of his Greek New Testament. Luther used the text prepared by Erasmus. But even though the inserted words taught the Trinity, Luther ruled them out and never had them in his translation. In 1550 Bugenhagen objected to these words “on account of the truth.” In 1574 [about 30 years after Luther’s death] Feyerabend, a printer, added them to Luther’s text, and in 1596 [in spite of the fact that scholars knew it was spurious] they appeared in the Wittenberg copies. They were not in Tyndale’s or Coverdale’s Bible or in the Great Bible [which were used by the KJV translators, and often copied nearly verbatim in many places by them].”

    The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.

    To this day, the Bible in the hands of the majority of Christians, the King James Version (KJV), also known as the Authorized Version (AV), still unhesitatingly includes this verse as the "inspired" word of God (often without so much as a note to inform the reader that nearly all respected scholars of Christendom acknowledge it as a non-scriptural late addition by uninspired trinitarian copyists).

    WHY did trinitarian copyists and scholars think it necessary to construct this “scripture” and actually add it to the Holy Scriptures? What, then, does this tell us about the evaluation of the rest of the “evidence” for a trinity by these very same trinitarians? Isn’t this most terrible, blasphemous action by them actually an admission that the rest of the “evidence” for a 3-in-one God is completely inadequate? Why else would they do such a desperate, terrible thing?

    WHAT does this tell us about those men who first constructed the “trinity doctrine” and forced it on an unwilling Roman Church in 325 A. D. at the Nicene Council? (See HIST and CREEDS studies .)

    WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?
     
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  7. OneIsTheWord

    OneIsTheWord Member

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    sorry I am not Catholic just a seeker
    I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, in these three in one I believe

    this is what I see in Hebrews 13: 9; or those in Leviticus 10: 1
     
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  8. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Shouldn’t the more relevant question be “why did Christ come?” Because scripture tells us clearly “how” he came.

    To understand why Christ came is a way more important question IMO.

    Can you answer that for me...?

    As regards 1 John 5:7-9...
    For there are three witness bearers: 8 the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    9 If we accept the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. Because this is the witness God gives, the witness that he has given about his Son.”


    The first rendering you gave is spurious, but the second is accurate.
    There is no trinity identified in 1 John 5:7-8.

    And if we accept the teaching of three gods, (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is not one God) then we have accepted the witness of men, not the witness of God in his word where these titles are completely missing in connection with Jesus and the holy spirit.

    Jesus never once claimed to be God, nor did he ever say that he was equal to his God and Father. You will not find trinitarian teaching in anything he said.....it is all implied in ambiguous scripture, rendered by men to support a grossly blasphemous error.

    The holy spirit is never called “God” either. It is called “God’s spirit” because it is the power that emanates from God to accomplish his will. He can also give this power to others.

    When Jesus said in John 16:7-8...(as rendered in the Authorized Version) “If I go not away, the Comforter [pa·raʹkle·tos] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world . . . when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.”
    It uses a masculine pronoun [e·keiʹnos] in reference to the Spirit even though [pneuʹma, spirit] is neuter in gender, therefore John 15:26 says..."But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" (KJV) The "Comforter" (helper) is masculine gender and the pronouns associated with it will be masculine...it is not indicating personhood.

    Yes, the ones who have God's spirit (genuinely) will know the truth from the errors proffered by men. But we also know that satan has the ability to "blind the minds" (2 Corinthian 4:3-4) of those who don't really love the truth, but who are intent on supporting their cherished falsehoods in spite of what the scriptures say. (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

    How do we know what 'camp' we are in? When Jesus comes to separate the "sheep from the goats" there is no ambiguity about the destiny of each group. (Matthew 25:31-34; 41, 46) All mankind will be judged to be in one group or the other. (Matthew 7:21-23) Like the two roads that Jesus also spoke about, (Matthew 7:13-14).....one leads to life, the other to "destruction".....all of us are on one road or the other.....truth and falsehood is all there is. God promotes one...the devil promotes the other.....our own hearts decide which to follow....
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
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  9. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Ohhh man, you guys really like the words! ....lots of them.
    The point is, does God the Father, does the Spirit, does the Word bear witness? and if yes, to what?
     
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  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    To and of [the revelation of] the Son, Jesus Christ.
     
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  11. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    what does that mean?
     
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  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    We know that the "Johannine comma" (1 John 5:7,8) was a later addition...added in in 1522. No manuscript found before then has that section in it. We know that the Latin translator (Erasmus) of that time refused to add in the trinity comma until a Greek text could be found to support it. So then the clerics "produced" one. ;)
    The Catholic church felt it had the authority to add to the scriptures. This they did early on as well. They changed Matt. 28:19 from "baptizing them in My name"...to "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." This was done in order control the people who may have sought for the power that was directly from heaven rather than going through them. This fact is attested to by early writers who quoted from actual original copies of the Matthew text.

    Regardless Acts records that there is no other name through which men can be saved but Jesus.

    (Acts 4:12) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

    Father, Son and Spirit are not names. There is no way that Jesus taught a trinity for baptism to His disciples. We see the agenda of religious clerics who changed the text in order to maintain control over their congregation. Now the power of the Spirit has been exchanged for Spirit in name only...taking away authority from God in order to place it in their own hands. The fact that this was not corrected in the "Reformation" shows the nature of the Reformers wanting to maintain control of the church in their hands. Otherwise we would not see them persecuting (by burning and drowning) the Anabaptists who recognized only the headship of Christ.

    We need a new restoration of the Spirit and biblical truth to the churches.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
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  13. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind sir that was a later day addition to the Bible, not in the original. That is fairly common knowledge today.
     
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  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The world was created to reveal all that occurred in the heavenly realm before the world began, before the foundation of the world. Wherein and by, the Son has given glory to the Father by the Spirit in the judgement of all things in heaven and earth. And so it is written.
     
  15. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Sounds very 'religious' Scott.....and unless we can flesh it out ie, know what these things mean, how can we ever be witnesses?
    Is it really what Jesus came to witness to? ....to his audience, to his disciples, to the religious, to his enemies?
    Is that really what the Spirit witnesses to?.....and the Father?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  16. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Even just from the comments of those on this site....do you ever see that happening?
    Is that what scripture indicates will take place? Or was there a warning about the “weeds” being gathered first and “destroyed” before the “wheat” is gathered into God’s storehouse? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

    The “wheat” has been growing alongside the “weeds” all this time.....persecuted and silenced by the “church” who claimed to serve their Master Christ, but who perpetrated unspeakable crimes against those who exposed their corruption....and in some countries in the world today, they still do, by the same method that the Jews used to silence Jesus....using the governments to do their dirty work, slandering and lying about them.

    As we all know “power corrupts” and the church was no exception. The corruption was foretold and the results predictable.....we know that it will all ‘come out in the wash’ because the Bible tells us what the outcome will be....but who will be the ones Jesus rejects? (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Are we part of the problem....or are we supporting God’s solution?
     
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  17. OneIsTheWord

    OneIsTheWord Member

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    Greetings
    who is the Godhead and what does it mean?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  18. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    There is no such word in the Bible. It was made up by the church to infer that there was a trinity.
    Colossians 2:9 says in the KJV and other similar translations....
    “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    But the word translated “godhead” in Greek is “theótes”, and this is the only use of the word in the whole of the Christian Greek Scriptures. The same is true of a similar Greek word, theiótes, which appears only at Romans 1:20, which the KJV renders as....... ”For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse”.

    Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, Volume I, defines the two terms in the light of ancient usages apart from the Scriptures. Theiótes it defines as “divine nature, divinity”. Theótes it defines in exactly the same way, as “divinity, divine nature,” and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9.

    So being divine does not necessarily make one a deity. Jesus can have a divine nature without being God.
    He only ever identified himself as “the Son of God”. Never is he said the be “God the Son”....a term invented by trinitarians.
     
  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The Godhead is the Father and the Son .....who partake of One Spirit. Through Christ we are invited into the fellowship of that One Spirit. It is mistakenly understood that the Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead. But this is not so.

    Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son through the Spirit.

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."1 John 1:3

    The bible never treats the Spirit as a separate person. That is an invention of religious men who sought to stop the authority of God and take that authority for themselves.
     
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    No, the whole world and history thereof, is simply a witness to and of itself...and it doesn't matter who is paying attention or not-- it simply brings everything to light. Period. Then comes the Judgement. The end.
     
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