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The Trees of Eden...Went down into HELL

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by whirlwind, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    If you are not willing to see this spiritually...you will not see, you will not understand. We have to see that biblical trees represent people. That, I believe, is the first step in seeing with spiritual eyes (at least it was for me).


    Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.



    The king of Babylon as well as the king of Assyrian represent Satan. Historically they took captive the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jews and Christians) and today the captivity continues through spiritual deception. Here the "Assyrian was a cedar." Was he a real tree? No. Cedars, as well as olive, figs, palms, etc. are people: as an example....


    Psalm 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.


    31:4-7 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.



    Waters, trees of the field, fowls of heaven, beasts of the field....should all be seen spiritually! But, this OP concerns the following....


    31:8-9 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.



    This is Satan...the beautiful tree of knowledge of good and evil....in the garden of Eden in the FIRST AGE, before his fall. There were many "trees," people in the garden. This should be easy to understand as literal trees do not envy. God made him fair and he was loved but then....Satan rebelled. That was in the first earth age and his rebellion is the reason for the destruction of that age.

    31:10 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.



    Pride and ego speak of a "heart lifted up in height." He thought he was God and he was "driven out" with many of those that followed him.

    31:15-16 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.



    Within those two verses we see the first earth age...when he went down to the grave, when all the trees of the field fainted for him, when God made the nations shake....and then the tense changes, no longer past tense but....He teaches of this present age.


    And all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.



    31:17-18 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.



    That is what I would like to discuss...why would the "choice and best" of God's trees go "down into hell?"
     
  2. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, whirlwind.

    If you are not willing to see this historically ... you will not see, you will not understand.

    Ezekiel 29-32
    29:1 On the twelfth day of the tenth month of the twelfth year, the word of Adonai came to me: 2 “Human being, turn your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt; prophesy against him and against all Egypt; 3 speak out; and say that Adonai Elohim says:

    I am against you,
    Pharaoh king of Egypt,
    you big crocodile
    lying in the streams of the Nile!
    You say, “My Nile is mine;
    I made it for myself.”
    4 But I will put hooks in your jaws
    and make your Nile fish stick to your scales.
    Yes, I will bring you up from your Nile,
    with all your Nile fish sticking to your scales,
    5 and leave you in the desert,
    you and all your Nile fish.
    You will fall in the open field
    and not be gathered or buried;
    but I will give you as food
    to wild animals and birds.
    6 Then all who live in Egypt
    will know that I am Adonai,
    because they have been a support made of straw
    for the house of Isra’el.
    7 When they grasped you in hand, you splintered
    and threw all their shoulders out of joint;
    when they leaned on you, you broke
    and made them all wrench their backs.’

    8 “Therefore Adonai Elohim says, ‘I will bring the sword against you and eliminate both your people and your animals. 9 The land of Egypt will become a desolate waste, and they will know that I am Adonai; because he said, “The Nile is mine; I made it.” 10 So I am against you and your Nile; and I will make the land of Egypt a totally desolate waste from Migdol to S’venah, all the way to the border of Ethiopia. 11 No human foot will pass through it, and no animal foot will pass through it; it will be uninhabited for forty years. 12 Yes, I will make the land of Egypt desolate, even when compared with other desolate countries, likewise her cities in comparison with other ruined cities; they will be desolate forty years. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them through the countries.’

    13 “For this is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples where they were scattered — 14 I will restore the fortunes of Egypt and cause them to return to the land of their origin, Patros. But there they will be a humble kingdom, 15 the humblest of kingdoms. It will never again dominate other nations; I will reduce them, so that they never again rule other nations. 16 Moreover, they will no longer be a source of confidence for Isra’el to turn to; rather, it will only bring to mind their guilt in having turned to them before. Then they will know that I am Adonai Elohim.’”

    17 On the first day of the first month of the twenty-seventh year, the word of Adonai came to me: 18 “Human being, N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel had his army mount a massive expedition against Tzor; [the loads of dirt they carried] made every head bald and every shoulder raw; yet neither he nor his army derived any benefit from Tzor out of this expedition against it. 19 Therefore Adonai Elohim says, ‘I will give the land of Egypt to N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel (Babylon). He will carry off its riches, take its spoil and its prey; and these will be the wages for his army. 20 I am giving him the land of Egypt as his wages for which he worked, because they were working for me,’ says Adonai Elohim. 21 ‘When that day comes I will cause power to return to the house of Isra’el, and I will enable you [Yechezk’el] to open your mouth among them. Then they will know that I am Adonai.’”

    30:1 The word of Adonai came to me: 2 “Human being, prophesy; say that Adonai Elohim says,

    ‘Wail, “Oh no! It’s today!”
    3 For the day is near,
    the Day of Adonai, a day of clouds,
    the time of the Goyim.
    4 The sword will come against Egypt,
    and Ethiopia will be in anguish,
    when the slain fall in Egypt,
    when they take away her wealth,
    and her foundations are torn down.
    5 Ethiopia, Put and Lud,
    all the mixed population and Kuv,
    and the people of allied lands
    will die by the sword with them.’

    6 “Adonai says this:

    Those supporting Egypt will fall;
    its arrogant power will be brought down;
    from Migdol to S’venah they will die by the sword,’
    says Adonai Elohim.

    7 “They will be desolate even when compared with other desolate countries, likewise her cities in comparison with other ruined cities. 8 They will know that I am Adonai when I set fire to Egypt, and those supporting it are destroyed. 9 When that day comes, I will send out messengers in ships to terrify the unsuspecting Ethiopians; and anguish will overcome them on the day of Egypt. Yes, here it comes!

    10 “Adonai Elohim says:

    ‘I will destroy the hordes of Egypt
    through N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel (Babylon).
    11 He and his people, the most barbarous of the nations,
    will be brought in to ravage the land.
    They will unsheathe their swords against Egypt
    and fill the land with corpses.
    12 I will dry up the streams of the Nile
    and sell the land to the wicked.
    Through the power of foreigners I will make the land
    and all that is in it desolate.
    I, Adonai, have spoken.’

    13 “Here is what Adonai Elohim says:

    ‘I will destroy the idols,
    make the false gods in Nof cease to exist.
    No longer will there be a prince from the land of Egypt;
    I will put fear in the land of Egypt,
    14 desolate Patros, set fire to Tzo‘an,
    execute judgements in No,
    15 pour my fury on Seen the stronghold of Egypt,
    and destroy the hordes of No.
    16 Yes, I will set fire to Egypt;
    Seen will writhe in anguish;
    No will be torn apart;
    enemies will attack Nof in broad daylight.
    17 The young men of On and Pi-Veset
    will die by the sword,
    while the cities themselves
    will go into captivity.
    18 At T’chafn’ches the day will grow dark
    when I break the yokes of Egypt there,
    and the pride she takes in her power ceases.
    A cloud will cover her,
    and her daughters will go into captivity.
    19 Thus will I execute judgments on Egypt.
    Then they will know that I am Adonai.’”

    20 On the seventh day of the first month of the eleventh year, the word of Adonai came to me: 21 “Human being, I have broken the arm of Pharaoh king of Egypt; it has not been bound up with dressings and bandages, so that it can heal and become strong enough again to wield the sword. 22 Therefore Adonai Elohim says this: ‘I am against Pharaoh king of Egypt. I will break his arms, both the sound one and the broken one, and I will make the sword fall from his hand. 23 I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries. 24 I will strengthen the arms of the king of Bavel and put my sword in his hand; but I will break the arms of Pharaoh; he will groan like a man mortally wounded. 25 Yes, I will hold up the arms of the king of Bavel; but the arms of Pharaoh will droop. They will know that I am Adonai when I put my sword in the hand of the king of Bavel (Babylon), and he stretches it out over the land of Egypt. 26 Yes, I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries; and they will know that I am Adonai.’”

    31:1 On the first day of the third month of the eleventh year, the word of Adonai came to me: 2 “Human being, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes:

    ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?
    3 Like Ashur, a cedar in the L’vanon.
    It had beautiful branches, dense foliage,
    its tall crown surrounded by leafy boughs.
    4 The water nourished it; the deep made it grow,
    sending its rivers round the place where it was planted,
    sending its streams to all the trees in the fields.
    5 So it grew taller than any other tree,
    its branches grew in number and spread far and wide,
    for it had plenty of water to make them grow.
    6 In its boughs all the birds of the air had their nests,
    beneath its branches all the wild animals gave birth to their young,
    and all great nations lived in its shade.
    7 It was beautiful in its greatness and the length of its branches,
    because its roots went down to plenty of water.
    8 No cedar in God’s garden was like it,
    no cypress tree could compare with its boughs,
    no chestnut tree could rival its branches,
    no tree in God’s garden could match its beauty.
    9 I made it so beautiful, with its many branches;
    all the trees in ‘Eden, God’s garden, envied it.’

    10 “Therefore here is what Adonai Elohim says: ‘Because you are so tall, because he has lifted his crown above the leafy boughs, because he has grown so arrogant about his height, 11 I am handing him over to the mightiest of the nations, who will certainly deal with him as his wickedness deserves; I reject him. 12 Foreigners, the most barbarous of the nations, will destroy him and leave him lying where he is. His branches will lie fallen on the mountains and in the valleys, his boughs will lie broken in all the rivers of the land, and all the peoples of the earth will withdraw from his shade and leave him. 13 All the birds will settle on his fallen trunk, and all the wild animals will be on his branches. 14 This is to warn all the trees growing near water not to grow so tall, not to lift their crowns above the leafy boughs, and all that take up water not to reach up in their height.

    For they are all given over to death,
    to the depths of the underworld,
    along with human beings,
    with those who descend to the pit.’

    15 “Here is what Adonai Elohim says:

    ‘On the day he descended to Sh’ol,
    I caused the abyss to mourn
    and cover itself for him;
    I held back its rivers,
    so that its deep waters were stopped.
    I made the L’vanon mourn for him,
    and all the field trees withered because of him.
    16 At the sound of his fall
    I made the nations shake,
    when I hurled him down to Sh’ol
    with those who descend to the pit.
    All the trees of ‘Eden,
    the pick of the best in the L’vanon,
    all that take up water,
    were consoled in the underworld.
    17 They descended with him to Sh’ol
    to those who were killed by the sword,
    to those who were his fighting arm,
    those among the nations who lived in his shade.
    18 Which of the trees of ‘Eden
    was your equal in glory or size?
    Yet you will be brought down to the underworld
    along with the trees of ‘Eden.
    You will lie there among the uncircumcised,
    with those killed by the sword.
    This is Pharaoh and his hordes,’
    says Adonai Elohim.”

    32:1 On the first day of the twelfth month of the twelfth year, the word of Adonai came to me: 2 “Human being, raise a lament for Pharaoh king of Egypt; say to him,

    ‘You compared yourself to a lion among the nations;
    In fact, you are more like a crocodile in the lakes.
    You burst out of your streams,
    churn the water with your feet
    and foul their streams.’

    3 “So here is what Adonai Elohim says:

    ‘With many nations assembled,
    I will spread my net over you,
    and they will haul you up in my dragnet.
    4 Then I will throw you on the shore,
    hurl you into an open field,
    make all the birds in the air settle on you
    and let the animals of the whole earth eat their fill of you.
    5 I will leave your flesh on the mountains
    and fill the valleys with your rotting carcass.
    6 I will drench the land in which you swim
    with your blood, as far as the mountains;
    the waterways will be full of you.
    7 When I extinguish you, I will cover the sky
    and make its stars black;
    I will cover the sun with a cloud,
    and the moon will not give its light.
    8 All the shining lights in the sky
    I will darken above you;
    I will spread darkness over your land,’
    says Adonai Elohim.

    9 “‘I will anger many peoples
    when I bring your destroyed ones
    in among the nations,
    into countries you have not known.
    10 I will make many peoples aghast at you;
    their kings will shudder in horror over you
    when I brandish my sword before them.
    On the day of your downfall
    they will tremble continuously,
    each man in fear of his life.’

    11 “For Adonai Elohim says this:

    The sword of the king of Bavel (Babylon)
    will come against you.
    12 With the swords of the warriors
    I will cause your hordes to fall.
    They are all the most barbarous of the nations,
    and they will shatter the glory of Egypt
    all its hordes will be destroyed.
    13 I will destroy all her cattle
    beside her plentiful waters.
    No human foot will trouble them again,
    nor the hoof of any animal.
    14 Then I will make their water clear
    and cause their streams to flow like oil,’
    says Adonai Elohim.
    15 ‘When I make the land of Egypt a ruined waste,
    a land stripped of all that filled it;
    when I strike all those who live there;
    they will know that I am Adonai.
    16 This is the lament that they will raise;
    the daughters of the nations will use it to mourn;
    they will chant it for Egypt and all its hordes,’
    says Adonai Elohim.”

    17 On the fifteenth day of the month in the twelfth year, the word of Adonai came to me:

    18 “Human being, wail for the hordes of Egypt;
    send them with the daughters of mighty nations
    down to the underworld,
    with those who descend to the pit.
    19 Are you more beautiful than the others?
    Go down, lie with the uncircumcised dead!
    20 They will fall among those killed by the sword;
    she is given to the sword; pull her down with her hordes.
    21 From the depths of Sh’ol the mightiest warriors
    will speak of him with those who helped him.
    They went down; they lie still,
    the uncircumcised, killed by the sword.

    22 “Ashur is there with her hordes;
    their graves are all around them,
    all of them slain, killed by the sword.
    23 Their graves are in the deepest parts of the pit,
    her hordes are all around her grave,
    all of them slain, killed by the sword,
    those who terrorized the land of the living.

    24 “‘Eilam is there, with her hordes around her grave,
    all of them slain, killed by the sword,
    descended uncircumcised to the underworld,
    those who terrorized the land of the living;
    they bear their shame together with those
    who descended to the pit.
    25 They have given her a bed among the slain with her hordes;
    her graves are all around them,
    all of them uncircumcised, killed by the sword,
    because they terrorized the land of the living;
    they bear their shame with those who descended to the pit;
    they are put among those who were slain.

    26 “Meshekh and Tuval with her horde is there,
    her graves are all around them,
    all of them uncircumcised, killed by the sword,
    because they terrorized the land of the living.
    27 They do not lie with the fallen warriors
    of the uncircumcised who descended to Sh’ol
    with their weapons of war,
    their swords laid under their heads,
    and their crimes upon their bones;
    because these warriors terrorized the land of the living.
    28 But you will lie broken among the uncircumcised,
    with those who were killed by the sword.

    29 “There is Edom, her kings and all her princes,
    who, despite all their power, are laid with those
    who were killed by the sword, with the uncircumcised,
    with those who descended to the pit.

    30 “There are all the princes of the north, all of them,
    and the Tzidoni, who descended with the slain,
    ashamed of all the terror they caused by their power;
    they lie uncircumcised with those killed by the sword,
    bearing their shame with those who descended to the pit.

    31 “All of these Pharaoh will see,
    and he will be consoled about his hordes,
    Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword,”
    says Adonai Elohim.
    32 “For I have put my terror in the land of the living,
    and he will lie among the uncircumcised,
    with those killed by the sword,
    Pharaoh and all his hordes,”
    says Adonai Elohim.
    CJB

    Time and time again, God makes it clear that this passage is about EGYPT! A Day of the Lord or a Day of Adonai against PHARAOH AND ALL EGYPT! And, the prophecy gives us the time table because God says that He is putting His sword in the hand of N'vukhadretsar (Nebuchadressar), king of Bavel (Babylon), to come against them! This has NOTHING to do with all the made-up stuff you're trying to conjure up! Learn to restrict your usage of the word "represents!" It's messing with your mind!
     
  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Keep to that. You have the real and proper interpretation of that Ezekiel 31 Scripture.

    The answer to your question is within this verse:
    Ezek 31:17
    17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and
    they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
    (KJV)


    Do you remember the Rev.12:3-4 Scripture about the time the dragon (Satan) drew one third of the stars (angels) with him? Do you recall it mentions a beast system that had ten horns in that time also? Do you remember what the ten horns represent later in Rev.13 and 17, and back in the Book of Daniel?

    That's who those under his arm and dwelt under his shadow in Ezek.31 represent. That idea extends also to the very end of this world when the ten kings of Satan's future beast kingdom will go down into the pit at Christ's return.
     
  4. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    [/QUOTE]


    The Holy Spirit teaches some of us to see and hear. Meaning....He gives us spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding. He doesn't teach history, He doesn't teach us to read. The letter of the Word has already been provided for us. So bravo on your ability to do both. :D Now, please see the depth of the Word and sadly...you will not see using your translation. For instance, you will not find "crocodile" in God's Word and yet...it is in your choice of deception.


    To understand the chapter you MUST see it with spiritual eyes. You MUST understand what trees are, who Egypt refers to, what is the fire...so much more. So quoting chapters with little understanding accomplishes little.


    As you have not addressed the question raised in the OP....I ask again....."why would the "choice and best" of God's trees go "down into hell?"



    ________________________________________________________________________________________________








    Thank you Veteran. Although there will be some that go into hell that don't expect it...for there are some that dwell under his shadow and don't realize it...I think it is more than that:



    Ezekiel 31:16-17 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.


    These "choice trees," God's elect, aren't those sentenced to hell but rather those that go down with those that are slain with the sword of Satan (deception), that were his arm (his strength) and those under his shadow (that believe his lies). Why? They are sent down (symbolically) to teach.

    These choice trees drink water...God's living water so they are filled with truth. They are comforted as they teach in the nether parts by The Comforter...the Holy Spirit.


    Comforted #5162 - To sigh; i.e. to breathe strongly; by impl. to be sorry, i.e (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (refl) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): comfort (self), ease lone's self, repent


    They have the breath of life...they pity and console the slain and teach...offering them the True Father and Saviour...rather than the serpent.
     
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, whirlwind.

    It's no deception to use our words "the crocodile" to translate the Hebrew word "hataniym!" That's what the word means! What other "huge dragon" does Egypt have if not a Nile crocodile?! Don't be devoid of wisdom in your quest for understanding! If you can't learn, then neither will you learn from the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit), no matter HOW much you claim otherwise!

    Boy oh boy! You, as well as others here, are going to have to swallow a LOT of crow!
     
  6. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    The Great Dragon.....

    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


    Was that enough salt to season your meal of crow? :)
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, whirlwind.

    Oh. So now the Pharaoh at the time that Babylon attacked Egypt (we are told in historical records that this was most likely Necho II) could get away with the cop out, "The devil made me do it!"?

    I'm looking right at the pages in Webster's NewWorld Hebrew Dictionary at the entry "taneen/ -eem" on page 412. (It transliterates Hebrew phonetically, at least to the Western ear.) This much gives me the information that "taneen" (pronounced "tah-NEEN") is the singular form and "taneem" (pronounced "tah-NEEM") is the plural form.

    Then, it tells me "nm crocodile (pl+of: -ey)" for the definition. This tells me that the word is a masculine noun, its definition is simply "crocodile," and when its plural is used in the construct state, the ending is changed to "-ey" making the word "taney" (pronounced "tah-NAY").

    P.S. - When one wants "to go deeper" into the understanding of the Scriptures, it might be necessary for some of us to back up and take a look at the "shallower" and be sure we understand THAT much before we attempt anything else!
     
  8. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    And still you don't address the question asked in the OP which is:

    "why would the "choice and best" of God's trees go "down into hell?"
    How or why we're discussing crocodiles is beyond me but...okay.

    The word is DRAGON, not crocodile. We're talking about Satan who is that old serpent, the dragon, also called the Devil.

    The dragon in Ezekiel is the same dragon in Revelation.

    Greek #1404 drakon, a fabulous kind of serpent, dragon.

    Hebrew #8577 tanniyn, a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

    Satan is not a crocodile.
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, whirlwind.

    Well, the reason why we must first address this issue of the "dragon" mess is because of how it is perceived to link to the 'trees in hell" garbage.

    First, the word is NOT "DRAGON!" The word in Ezekiel 29:3 is "ha-TANIYM," where "ha-" is the definite article. And, with all due respect to Strong's Dictionaries, or Vine's or whatever, don't you think that the Isra'elis and Jews would have a better understanding of what a "taniym" is? "Dragon" is just a word that somebody sometime in the past decided to use for translation, but it is a HEBREW word in the Scriptures, not an English word! Besides, consider the words "a marine or land monster": Have you ever seen a Nile crocodile? It's the second largest crocodile in the world, averaging between 13 and 16 feet long. Wikipedia gives us this information:

    (More can be read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_crocodile.)
    Wouldn't that be classified as "a marine or land monster?" The Scriptures even add the word "hagaadowl" after it meaning "the great" or "the large," and a "monster" is typically an over-sized animal, as in "monstrous" or "monstrosity." After 430 years living in Egypt, the children of Isra'el were WELL acquainted with Nile crocodiles!

    Now, we can get to the meat of the OP:

    Ezekiel 31:16
    16 Miqowl mapaltow hir`ashtiy gowyim bhowridiy otow sh’owlaah et yowrdeey bowr: Vayinaachamuw b’erets tachtiyt kaal `atseey `Eeden miVchar vTowV LVaanown kaal shoteey maayim:
    17 Gam herm itow yaarduw sh’owlaah el challeey chaareV uwzro`ow yaashVuw btsilow btowkh gowyim:
    JPS Hebrew-English TaNaKH

    16 Miqowl = 16 From-(the)-sound
    mapaltow = of-his-fall/ruin
    hir`ashtiy = I-shook
    gowyim = (the)-nations
    bhowridiy = in-those-I-brought-down
    otow = him
    sh’owlaah = (to-the)-grave
    et = (definite article follows)
    yowrdeey = (the)-descenders
    bowr: = in-a-hole:
    Vayinaachamuw = and-they-shall-be-pitied/consoled/avenged
    b’erets = in-(the)-land/dirt/earth
    tachtiyt = her-depths
    kaal = all
    `atseey = trees
    `Eeden = of-Eden
    miVchar = (the)-tested
    vTowV = and-(the)-best
    LVaanown = of-Lebanon
    kaal = all
    shoteey = drinkers
    maayim: = of-waters:
    17 Gam = 17 Also
    heem = they
    itow = with-him
    yaarduw = they descended
    sh’owlaah = (into-the)-grave
    el = unto
    challeey = (the)-slain
    chaareV = (with)-sword
    uwzro`ow = and-his-arm
    yaashVuw = sat-down
    btsilow = in-his-shadow
    btowkh = in-the-middle
    gowyim: = of-(the)-nations.

    16 From-(the)-sound of-his-fall/ruin I-shook (the)-nations in-those-I-brought-down him (to-the)-grave (the)-descenders in-a-hole: and-they-shall-be-pitied/consoled/avenged in-(the)-land/dirt/earth her-depths all trees of-Eden (the)-choice and-(the)-best of-Lebanon all drinkers of-waters:

    17 Also they with-him they descended (into-the)-grave unto (the)-slain (with)-sword and-his-arm sat-down in-his-shadow in-the-middle of-(the)-nations.

    Although the NIV has its own set of problems, it has the best understanding of this passage:

    Ezekiel 31:15-18
    15 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day it was brought down to the grave I covered the deep springs with mourning for it; I held back its streams, and its abundant waters were restrained. Because of it I clothed Lebanon with gloom, and all the trees of the field withered away. 16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, all the trees that were well-watered, were consoled in the earth below. 17 Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, had also gone down to the grave with it, joining those killed by the sword.

    18 "'Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.

    "'This is Pharaoh and all his hordes,' declares the Sovereign LORD."
    NIV

    The word picture here is that if Pharaoh Necho II is a huge tree under whose boughs other trees could take refuge while they, in turn, were tree-protectors of others, then they would fall with him when he fell and share in his demise. And, indeed, Babylon's armies defeated many other nations on their way home after defeating Egypt. Their demise would only find consolation in the fact that Pharaoh Necho joined them in death, as he did in his turn, since they trusted in his protection.

    We don't have to go nuts with the interpretation of this passage; we only have to understand the Jewish perspective and the poetry employed in the prophecy against Egypt's greatest Pharaoh in that era.
     
  10. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    IT IS NOT A CROCODILE!!!








    You don't have a clue and I no longer care. :p
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I understand your meaning, but I don't look at the passage that way. Those who went down with him can point to the time of Satan's original overthrow, and also for the end of this present world (see Isaiah 24:21-23).

    I believe only the angels that rebelled with Satan in his original overthrow are those who went down into the pit with him in that time of old.

    If you take a wide-angle look at today's world, you'll see a type of parallel to that event going on right now with western Christian leaders and today's representatives of the cedars of Lebanon on the bandwagon of "one world government". That coming world system will be the Rev.13:1-2 beast kingdom that Satan will once again setup on earth prior to our Lord Jesus' return.
     
  12. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    Good morning Veteran. :)

    I too see the parallel and I too see part of the passage under discussion as being the first earth age but then....the tense changes:



    Ezekiel 31:16-17 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.


    Satan was cast....the trees of Eden SHALL be comforted.
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, whirlwind.

    One day after the Messiah Yeshua` returns, there will come a special event where there will be this GRAND ceremony and King Yeshua` (Jesus) will have 50 of His special saints - gentlemen of the Old Testament times - famous names, like David, and Solomon, and many of the prophets of God - lead you personally to the throne room for this grand ceremony. They will escort you to the throne with a great deal of pomp and circumstance! You will be honored to have a private audience with the KING OF KINGS!

    He will motion to you to come up to His throne, and He will have you kneel before Him.

    He will lean forward and whisper in your ear,...




















    "It WAS a 'crocodile.'"
     
  14. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    The word dragon isn't Hebrew in origin.

    Here is an excerpt from the Online Etymology Dictionary.



    The word dragon isn't in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts of the Tanakh.
    That is why the word dragon doesn't appear in Jewish editions of Ezekiel 29:3.

    Here is how that verse is translated into English by various Jewish editions of the Tanakh.

    Complete Jewish Bible:

    Orthodox Jewish Bible:
    JPS Tanakh:
    In his commentary about the Tanakh book of Ezekiel, the late Dr. Peter C. Craigie identifies the creature mentioned in Ezekiel 29:3 as a crocodile.*

    Also, the word Hell isn't in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts of the Tanakh, either.

    The word Hell isn't Hebrew. It is Germanic in origin.

    Here is Ezekiel 31:16 as given in Jewish editions of the Tanakh.

    Complete Jewish Bible:
    Orthodox Jewish Bible:
    JPS Tanak:

    When presenting an argument pertaining to the Tanakh, it is a mistake to base that argument on a word that isn't in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts.


    By the way, when it comes to the Tanakh, the ancient Hebrew manuscripts are the standard for comparison, not any English version.



    *Reference: Peter C. Craigie, Ezekiel (Westminster Press: 1983), p. 213.
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Note just where... those are 'comforted' though... "in the nether parts of the earth". Where's that?

    Ezek 31:14
    14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water:
    for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.
    (KJV)


    The Hebrew for "nether" means the lowest parts. That's about their being delivered down to hades. And the fact that God also says there "they are all delivered unto death", that means those have already been judged and sentenced to perish. So who would that be? The angels that rebelled with Satan which are kept in chains unto the great day of God's Judgment. And thirdly, notice included with them will be "the children of men", pointing to a joining among them of the later wicked of this world at the final Judgment.
     
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