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The Trinity

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by blessed76, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. blessed76

    blessed76 New Member

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    The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This has always confused me!I know that the Father is God, our Creator. The Son is Jesus who was born and died and rose again. The Holy Ghost is...what? Also, if God was in Heaven and His son was here, that would mean two beings. But I was also taught that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same.I don't get it. Did Jesus become God when He rose again? Was He always God and not a different person? If so, was He both here and in Heaven? I was under the impression that God watched over His son from Heaven. ???
     
  2. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

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  3. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    (blessed76;37027)
    The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This has always confused me!I know that the Father is God, our Creator. The Son is Jesus who was born and died and rose again. The Holy Ghost is...what? Also, if God was in Heaven and His son was here, that would mean two beings. But I was also taught that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same.I don't get it. Did Jesus become God when He rose again? Was He always God and not a different person? If so, was He both here and in Heaven? I was under the impression that God watched over His son from Heaven. ???
    OF COURSE YOU DON'T Get it .and we on this side of heaven never will .but what you can't understand you can still grasp.look at the last creed on this page the athanasian creed.when you read it don't get upset . it is only a denial of its truth that seperates one from the true God and his salvation . not understanding or never hearing it this way does not seperate one. only a stead fast denial of the truths of this creed during a persons whole life will seperate them.also dont let the last part of the Athanasian creed confuse you .because every one who trusts in Jesus merits alone for their salvation ! God credits them with the perfect record of Jesus His good works . see Hebrews 1O:10
     
  4. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    (blessed76;37027)
    The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This has always confused me!I know that the Father is God, our Creator. The Son is Jesus who was born and died and rose again. The Holy Ghost is...what? Also, if God was in Heaven and His son was here, that would mean two beings. But I was also taught that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same.I don't get it. Did Jesus become God when He rose again? Was He always God and not a different person? If so, was He both here and in Heaven? I was under the impression that God watched over His son from Heaven. ???
    OF COURSE YOU DON'T Get it .and we on this side of heaven never will .but what you can't understand you can still grasp.look at the last creed on this web page of christian creeds http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&c...shortcutID=2077 the Athanasian creed.AND when you read it UNDERSTAND . it is only a denial of its truth that seperates one from the true God and his salvation . not understanding or never hearing it this way does not seperate one. only a stead fast denial of the truths of this creed during a persons whole life will seperate them.also dont let the last part of the Athanasian creed confuse you .because every one who trusts in Jesus merits alone for their salvation ! God credits them with the perfect record of Jesus His good works . see Hebrews 10:10GODS BLESSINGS
     
  5. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    Wow, Following Creeds, is like looking for Jesus References in a Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen Book instead of the Bible!The Father is the Father of Jesus Christ.In Matthew Chapter 2 Mary is Found with the Son of the Holy Ghost.This makes the Father the Same as the Holy Ghost.Colossians 2:9 says that ALL OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST was in Him.John 1:1 He is the Word of God, in Verse 14, The Word of God is Manifested and dwelled with Men, and the Man Jesus Christ whose body was the Word of God Manifested all of God was in Him. He was GodHe is not Separate from the Father, he is not Seperate from the Holy Ghost.
     
  6. biblicalthought

    biblicalthought New Member

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    You are embarking upon a very difficult area of Christian theology, one that I've spent much time on myself. A helpful short-cut would be a study of what we call the pre-existence of the Son, or the pre-incarnate Son. This is basically a narrowly focused study that explores all of the Old Testament references to the Son of God. In doing so, our discovery is highly rewarding.We find the "Personhood of the Son."We find the "Diety of the Son."We find "the Son" mentioned many times.We learn that He is the "One who breaks the nations."Gramatically, we discover significant pronouns attributed to Him (He, His, Him, etc.).We are told to trust "Him," the Son.we find prophecies that he will be "begotten," even though He already exists and has appeared throughout history (theophanies).Isaiah speaks of Him, identifies Him, prophecies his birth to a virgin, prophecies His death.he is named and described as the long-awaited Messiah.If you have any questions about a particular statement I've made, I'd be glad to go deeper and expound more fully. Each statement I made above, can be turned into a large book. So, we'll need to keep it focused.The same goes for the Person of the Holy Spirit. This is an amazing study, and really enhances your worship and prayer.
     
  7. dgc

    dgc New Member

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    sorry for such a long post. I have seen many questions asked about the trinity and I hopes this helps.THE TRINITY: Yahweh is the TRIUNE God"University" = unity plus diversity. Conceived for the USA seal in 1776, "E Pluribus Unum" = out of many (diversity), one. The philosopher's dream is for a proper mankind is "unity in diversity". We have an example in the divine realm in Christianity in the Divine Trinity (not the Satanic trinity). Our God exists simultaneously as 3 persons, all 3 of whom are in constant existence...having always been in constant existence (never created). The first indication is in Genesis in 1:1 with "God" being the plural name Elohim and then Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness'..." Both Elohim and Adonai, in Hebrew, are examples of "compound unity" names...indicating "several or many in one". Take the verse Deuteronomy 6:4 where Moses said, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our GOD is one LORD." In Hebrew it is, "Shema Israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai, Echad." The Jews call this verse the SHEMA. The SHEMA shows us that God, Elohim, is a UNITY in PLURALITY. The Hebrew word Elohim is a plural form, being a UNITY in PLURALITY. The "ELOHENU" of the SHEMA is "our God" and is a plural word form. The "Adonai," The Lord, is also a plural word. So the SHEMA clearly identifies God as a plural unity. The final word in the SHEMA is Echad and this settles it once and for all because Echad is a "compound unity" meaning "several or many in one." Yachid is another Hebrew word for "one" and it means "an absolute, indivisible unity." Because yachid is used hundreds of times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament Bible, it is never used to describe the "oneness" of God...echad is used. We must keep clearly in mind that Moses was, himself, one of the great men of the entire history of mankind...surely with intellect and knowledge on a par with the greatest minds of human history. He was given personal instruction by God; so, it is inconceivable that Moses was simply careless in his choice of words. The word "Trinity" is never used in the Bible, and the doctrine of trinitarianism is never explicitly taught in the Bible (the Holy Scriptures). The doctrine is put fourth through correlating Biblical themes and evidence. The emperor Constantine called a council of 318 bishops at Nicaea in 325AD to hammer out church variations of the doctrine of the Trinity...(unfortunately, the effort was marred by political pressure by Constantine) the result being a 316 to 2 vote in favor of the Athanasian position that God and Jesus are of one substance (resulting in the Niceen Creed...affirmed/ratified at council of Rome in 341 & council of Constantinople of 381). God variously exists/functions as The Father, The Son (Jesus), and The Holy Spirit (The Holy Ghost). As to Jesus, The Savior: a savior not quite God would be like a bridge broken at its farther end, and one not quite human like a bridge broken at its beginning. So, pay close attention! Essential elements of the Trinity are: God is one (Christianity is not polytheistic). Each of the 3 within the "Godhead" is deity...not created. The one-ness of God and the three-ness of God are not contradictory. The Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is eternal. Each of the 3 is of the same/equal essence, none being superior or inferior to another. Each person of the Trinity is different in function and personhood, not one person with 3 modes. God did not become incarnate, Jesus did; so we don't thank the Father for dying on the Cross. Jesus was begotten but not created. Jesus, fully God, became incarnate (John 1:14...the Word became flesh) as fully human (body, soul, & spirit...otherwise he would not be an actual redeemable human & could not have qualified as The Redeemer). Jesus the God-man: exactly how he was both God and man...how the two natures were existing in one person...is not yet a clear thing in my mind (a "mystery") the FATHER the SON the HOLY SpiritName Yahweh ; "I AM" Jesus of Nazareth Holy Spirit as to:divine essencethe FATHER: each same...He is the Head; God is "one"the SON: each same...was a man for 30+ years & God is the Head of Jesus;God is "one"...Jesus is God (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1; Romans 1:5; Hebrews 1:8)the HOLY Spirit: each same...H. S. not man-like, came like a rushing wind;God is "one"as to a vineyard example (John 15:1-8)the FATHER: is the gardener who prunesthe SON: the main vine [the true vine] (people are the branches) the HOLY Spirit: not mentionedas to:fundamental rolesthe FATHER: has The Will, the agendathe SON: is perfectly obedient; to the mission, shepherd, and be The Head of believers.the HOLY Spirit: is perfectly obedient; is enabler of persons to become (say "yes") and be believers; is a promise of the Father (Luke 24); is a gift to every believer (Acts 2:38)as to presence in the lives of God's chosen peoplethe FATHER:BC: present but spoke thru prophetsAD: present but speaks thru The Word, prayer, circumstances, and the churchthe SON:BC: present but not realized & not incarnateAD: has all authority on heaven and earth and is the Head of The Churchthe HOLY Spirit:BC: did not indwell all of the chosen; He only came upon especially chosen individuals for God's purposesAD: He indwells each believer (by doing so He baptizes & causes the new birth) and is the agent by whom God "speaks"as to: the truth of a person's profession of Christian faiththe FATHER: simply desires (and set the way) for all to be saved and "draws" toward saving beliefthe SON:died to cancel sin for all & to redeem all; is author of one's faith; convicts of need to say "yes" to Jesus belief; only one knowing sincerity of profession(Matthew 5:21)the HOLY Spirit: enables to say "yes" to salvationas to: eternalitythe FATHER: yes, Psalms 90:2the SON: yes, John 1:2 Revelations 1:8, 1:17the HOLY Spirit: yes, Hebrews 9:14as to: powerthe FATHER: yes, equal: I Peter 1:5the SON: yes, equal: 2 Corinthians 12:9the HOLY Spirit: yes, equal: Romans 15:19as to the WAYS of Godthe FATHER: as to the WAYS of Godthe SON: lived the example and spoke of the ways of Godthe HOLY Spirit: instructs one as to the ways of Godas to the believer's intimate relationship with Jesusthe FATHER: wills itthe SON: desires it for you and leads into knowledge of itthe HOLY Spirit: enables the believer into the relationship and as to the mind of Christas to: holinessthe FATHER: equal, Revelations 15:4the SON: equal, Acts 3:14the HOLY Spirit: equal, Acts 1:8as to: lovethe FATHER: originator of love; His nature is love; possesses the will to extend love; is love I John 4:16the SON: is the embodiment of love on earth & commands & leads to love of othersthe HOLY Spirit: the conduit for pouring out love into the believer's heartRomans 8:26-28 & works to enable love for othersas to: omnisciencethe FATHER: yes, total, 100% Jeremiah 17:10the SON: yes, 99.99999% Revelations 2:23 (Jesus doesn't know the time of His return...only the Father knows); John 14:28; Mark 13:32; John 5:19; & I Corinthians 15:28)the HOLY Spirit: yes, 99.99999% I Corinthians 2:11 (only the Father knows the time of Christ's return)as to: benevolence the FATHER: thru it, God leads man toward repentance, toward "belief"Romans 2:4the SON: thru God's benevolence, Jesus cleanses believer, Ephesians 5:25the HOLY Spirit: thru God's benevolence, the Spirit instructs and enables the believer, Nehemiah 9:20as to: creation of the worldthe FATHER: He conceived it and created it Gen.. 1:1the SON: He was there from the beginning John 1:1-3, 10the HOLY Spirit: hovered over it at beginning Gen.. 1:2as to: creation of Manthe FATHER: formed the man Genesis 2:7 the SON: created man and man created for him Colossians 1:the HOLY Spirit: his breath gives man life Job 33:4 as to: death of Christthe FATHER: He conceived of and engineered the plan and agreed that such way was the only sufficient offset for the sins of mankindthe SON: He agreed to come to earth as a man, to play the role, to live and speak THE TRUTH, to be the Light of the world, and to undergo the details of all of the prophesies and suffer the death.the HOLY Spirit: He came 50 days later, at Pentecost, to indwell believers therefrom, on into all the future ages Acts 2:1as to:Sinthe FATHER: declared and defined sinthe SON: came to reveal sinthe HOLY Spirit: is always busy among people, and thru people and other means, urging the conviction of sin within the mind of a person (that person becomes CONVINCED...convicted)"shouts" a warning to the believer about to fall off courseas to redemption of mankindthe FATHER: willed the processthe SON: willingly came, fully as a man, as the Father's obedient servant to accomplish The Father's willthe HOLY Spirit: came onto Jesus (as enablement ?...John 5:19) at his baptism (Mark 1:9)as to salvation of an individual, rolethe FATHER: designates/foreknowledges The Electthe SON: paid the redemption price and "knocks on the door"...is the invitation to make a choice...for the "yes" hearer to say "yes"the HOLY Spirit: LEADS individual to Jesus:works thru those used to carry the Gospel that the message be conveyed...quickens the mind and spirit of the "hearer"...enables the "yes" hearer to hear..."saves" the "yes" hearer by enabling him to say yesas to prayerthe FATHER: loves, solicits, receives itthe SON: intercedes for the believer in behalf of it, as requestedthe HOLY Spirit: aids the believer in discerning what, how, and why to pray;will intercede for believer, as asked,when believer does not know how or what to pray; our helper in prayer.as to vengeancethe FATHER: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. Romans 12:19the SON: is a shield from it for the believerthe HOLY Spirit: no roleas to Judgmentthe FATHER: authority and measurer of proper appeasementthe SON: passes all final judgment (John 5:22 & 27)the HOLY Spirit: no roleas to spiritual giftsthe FATHER: no rolethe SON: no rolethe HOLY Spirit: distributes the particular gifts to particular believersas to the believer's glorification of Godthe FATHER: He desires it, receives it,and loves itthe SON: He intercedes and delivers it (John 15:5)the HOLY Spirit: He infuses the power to do so, originating in Jesus, into the believer (Philippians 4:13)as to God speaking to believersthe FATHER: He "speaks"the SON: He is the interceding linkthe HOLY Spirit: He resides within the believer and gives the message through The Word (scripture), prayer, circumstances, and the Church.as to knowing the will of God for yourselfthe FATHER: He "wills" that you know itthe SON: He loves you toward desiring to know itthe HOLY Spirit: He guides and enables you into seeing, hearing, understanding what God's will is & what the mind of Christ is as to God's willas to doing the will of God for yourselfthe FATHER: it is His will that you come to know itthe SON: He loves you toward desiring to do itthe HOLY Spirit: He enables you to say "yes" in your decision to do it and enables you to do it.as to:the local churchthe FATHER: has His will for itthe SON: is the Head of itthe HOLY Spirit: manifests himself as the enabler within each believer for actions and experiences toward the common good of "the body of believers"...the church I Corinthians 12 Acts 2:38as to: Resurrection from deaththe FATHER: He wills that the children of God come to Him and His kingdom after their death (has possibly willed that all come to Him)the SON: He is the actual mechanism for the resurrection of God's children (John 11:25)the HOLY Spirit:
     
  8. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    Luke 3:21-22Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." Have you ever made a pitcher of Kool-Aid? You know how it works: pour a couple cups of sugar into an empty pitcher, add the Kool-Aid powder, then fill the pitcher with water. And finally, stir well. By stirring, all three elements (sugar, powder, water) mix together and become one refreshing drink. We see God the Father talking to Jesus, God the Son, who is being baptized. And from heaven comes God the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, in the form of a dove. Three distinct persons here in these two verses, yet they're all the same God. If your mind is boggling right now, don't worry, that's normal. The closest we can come to understanding this is through examples like Kool-Aid. Is Kool-Aid only sugar? No, it has flavor too. But it's not only flavor. It's also wet and drinkable. Well, is it only water then? Of course not. But when you mix everything together you get one drink made of three parts. And in every single drop of that drink all three elements exist together yet fill distinct roles in making it Kool-Aid.[url="http://www.notreligion.com/]http://www.notreligion.com/[/url] It's not about religion...it's about a relationship.
     
  9. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    When You Say Person, you make a Distinction of each Personas of God. I totally hate that. No Offense, cause you make them separated. The Best way I can explain the Fullness of God is in my signature. And that I'm a Son, A Nephew and a Human. THREE DIFFERENT TITLES, Occupying Three Different Offices, DOING THE SAME Thing. Jesus Was the Father, who dwelled in the Son, and his Spirit is the Holy Ghost. All that the Father was, Was poured into Jesus, all that Jesus Was, in the Dispensation of the Holy Ghost was poured into his Church. There are not three different persons in the Fullness of YHWH.
     
  10. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove New Member

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    I am a person, my nature is human. A human nature has a body and an immortal soul, united in some way we cannot really see or fully know, yet we believe it to be so. So it is not like we cannot accept things we do not fully understand as being true.With God we must first admit that from our current view we cannot know EVERYTHING about Him. But we can know some things and many things He has revealed to us. We know God the Father made everything that is and most of us believe that means before He created nothing was. Except the same story also tells us He was not alone. The Apostle, Saint John adds more enlightenment telling us that Jesus was there too, everything that was created the Father made THROUGH Jesus, that Jesus existed before anything "was". Saint John also tells us Jesus is Divine, that He is God.We also know from the OT that there is only One God and our reasoning tells us from considering Divine Nature that something we would call Infinite leaves no room for something else to also be called Infinite. Clearly however as scripture already tells us, we have Jesus and the Father, two distinct Persons, we even have them talking to one another.So from just this little (and admittedly simplistic) consideration we can see a need to explain how we can have One God and two Persons that have always existed and can both be said to BE God. Very similar things from scripture can be said of the Holy Ghost, so we have a Third Person to consider as well.Ultimately after several centuries of considering the implications of some of the things revealed to us from Scripture concerning God, the teaching or understanding of the Trinity developed.That teaching is that God, in a way we cannot fully understand or appreciate, is Three Persons, each a distinct Person, yet all Three God. One Divine Nature, not shared as if part here and part there, but existing IN Three Persons. One Divine Will, not shared or three wills in perfect harmony, One Will.
     
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