The Truth Of Becoming Unbelieving

[MatthewG]

(Please be encouraged to read this out loud to yourself and consider what is said.)

There are many Christians who believe that it would ever been impossible to give up faith. There is scripture to support this of course, the idea also of the use of "Sovereign God" does what He wants, and there is nothing a person can do against what God has done. Do not get me wrong, I believe there are aspects of God, in which He does things according to His Will, and His Purposes. However to violate free-will, is not in Gods nature at all in my best estimation. To violate a persons free-will, would mean that God forces, and if God forces how can that be loving?

Therefore because of this understanding (that may be wrong to you), there are people in this life, who are taught that anything is possible with God. Now I do not doubt that this is true, however there are some exceptions to the principle. Everything that God promises, such as a barren woman given birth such as Elizabeth sticks with the context of the scripture provided. Promises of resurrection, Promises of restoration in the soul (mind/will/emotions) of someone being born again., things like this absolutely.

To say that God will do anything He wants, also violates His very own free-will. Imagine a person who mother or father is dying, and a preacher tells them if you just have enough faith they will be okay, but they die anyway. Was it the persons failure to have "enough" faith that they were not healed? Did God hear their prayers? Or was it due to not having "enough" faith that God did not hear their prayers? Whatever you decide to answer here, my thoughts are God did hear their prayer however, every one at some point in life has to move forward from this life in which they go on to the next life, which is in the Heavenly Realms, be it outside or inside of the Kingdom (resurrection of life, resurrection to condemnation).

So what does this allude to by the previous questions asked? If God did not answer their prayer of the individual and they have a love one pass away, leaves a disconnect between God and the individual, which can always lead to what scripture describes made by the writer of Hebrew whom wrote to Jewish people in there day.

What does the writer say? Here is what the Contemporary English Version of the Bible says:

Hebrews 3:12 My friends, watch out! Don't let evil thoughts or doubts make any of you turn from the living God.

Just something to consider and think about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are many Christians who believe that it would ever been impossible to give up faith. There is scripture to support this of course, the idea also of the use of "Sovereign God" does what He wants, and there is nothing a person can do against what God has done. Do not get me wrong, I believe there are aspects of God, in which He does things according to His Will, and His Purposes. However to violate free-will, is not in Gods nature at all in my best estimation. To violate a persons free-will, would mean that God forces, and if God forces how can that be loving?

In order to save somebody- god has to violate what you call free will. Man is by nature an object of wrath and can do nothing to please God according to Scripture. If God did not change our hearts we would never change. And no we cannot even ask Him to change our hearts. As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. we do not even want to for the human nature thinks the things of God foolish.

God elects the saved. we do not choose God, but God first chose us! He is love! all He does is in perfect love whether we can rationalize it or not.

 

[MatthewG]

I disagree @Ronald Nolette but you are more than free to believe how you do. Thank you for commenting. It’s Gods goodness that leads us to repentance, is what I believe. And the goodness is found in God having sent His son to die you, me and the person down the street so that they could have a relationship by raising again with Christ.

May you be blessed in His Name.

 

[BeyondET]

I disagree @Ronald Nolette but you are more than free to believe how you do. Thank you for commenting. It’s Gods goodness that leads us to repentance, is what I believe. And the goodness is found in God having sent His son to die you, me and the person down the street so that they could have a relationship by raising again with Christ.

May you be blessed in His Name.

Yup it would be like saying God placed the taste of slop in the prodigal son mouth. Through his own free will he chose to return.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree @Ronald Nolette but you are more than free to believe how you do. Thank you for commenting. It’s Gods goodness that leads us to repentance, is what I believe. And the goodness is found in God having sent His son to die you, me and the person down the street so that they could have a relationship by raising again with Christ.

May you be blessed in His Name.

As you study more you will find that unsaved man is a slave to sin and can only obey sin. They are spritually dead and have no capacity to do the things of God. that is not free will. Man has what I call "free volition" In that we can act in free way for the things of earth, what we eat, whhat we wear. who we mrry etc.etc. but in a specific way free will is about the ability for an unsaved soul on their own to choose the things of God and and the Bible is clear, that cannot happen.

I will be offline for a week ,maybe more. My wife is very ill and I must fly down to where she took our daughter and granddaughter to vacation,

 

[MatthewG]

Very sorry to hear about your wife, may God give you strength to get through, as well as your family, and strength your heart during these times.

 

[ChristisGod]

As you study more you will find that unsaved man is a slave to sin and can only obey sin. They are spritually dead and have no capacity to do the things of God. that is not free will. Man has what I call "free volition" In that we can act in free way for the things of earth, what we eat, whhat we wear. who we mrry etc.etc. but in a specific way free will is about the ability for an unsaved soul on their own to choose the things of God and and the Bible is clear, that cannot happen.

I will be offline for a week ,maybe more. My wife is very ill and I must fly down to where she took our daughter and granddaughter to vacation,

Free will means man is able to respond to Gods grace on his own will freely without coercion. Man has the free will to respond or reject Gods grace which precedes mans choice to accept of reject God. No Arminian who believes in free will disagrees with my statement here. Calvinists have their own caricature of free will.

Prayers for your family.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Nancy]

(Please be encouraged to read this out loud to yourself and consider what is said.)

There are many Christians who believe that it would ever been impossible to give up faith. There is scripture to support this of course, the idea also of the use of "Sovereign God" does what He wants, and there is nothing a person can do against what God has done. Do not get me wrong, I believe there are aspects of God, in which He does things according to His Will, and His Purposes. However to violate free-will, is not in Gods nature at all in my best estimation. To violate a persons free-will, would mean that God forces, and if God forces how can that be loving?

Therefore because of this understanding (that may be wrong to you), there are people in this life, who are taught that anything is possible with God. Now I do not doubt that this is true, however there are some exceptions to the principle. Everything that God promises, such as a barren woman given birth such as Elizabeth sticks with the context of the scripture provided. Promises of resurrection, Promises of restoration in the soul (mind/will/emotions) of someone being born again., things like this absolutely.

To say that God will do anything He wants, also violates His very own free-will. Imagine a person who mother or father is dying, and a preacher tells them if you just have enough faith they will be okay, but they die anyway. Was it the persons failure to have "enough" faith that they were not healed? Did God hear their prayers? Or was it due to not having "enough" faith that God did not hear their prayers? Whatever you decide to answer here, my thoughts are God did hear their prayer however, every one at some point in life has to move forward from this life in which they go on to the next life, which is in the Heavenly Realms, be it outside or inside of the Kingdom (resurrection of life, resurrection to condemnation).

So what does this allude to by the previous questions asked? If God did not answer their prayer of the individual and they have a love one pass away, leaves a disconnect between God and the individual, which can always lead to what scripture describes made by the writer of Hebrew whom wrote to Jewish people in there day.

What does the writer say? Here is what the Contemporary English Version of the Bible says:

Hebrews 3:12 My friends, watch out! Don't let evil thoughts or doubts make any of you turn from the living God.

Just something to consider and think about.

Amen brother, God does not change and that is such a comfort to me. He is our Rock of salvation the one whom we cling to with dear life!

 

[PinSeeker]

The whole debate misses the point. It is not a matter of whether man has free will or not (no one disputes that he does) or whether he is able to use it freely or not (no one disputes that he is). The crux of the matter is the condition of the heart ~ what it's natural condition is and whether or not it is changed from that natural condition. As Paul says, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5).

As for "becoming unbelieving," as John says of those no longer with us in the faith, "they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." And by "of us," John is referring to the spiritual condition of believers, those who are in Christ, born again of the Spirit.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Free will means man is able to respond to Gods grace on his own will freely without coercion. Man has the free will to respond or reject Gods grace which precedes mans choice to accept of reject God. No Arminian who believes in free will disagrees with my statement here. Calvinists have their own caricature of free will.

Prayers for your family.

hope this helps !!!

Well of course an armeniast will not disagree.

but the bible says that the natural man cannot please God.
The things of God are foolishness to the natural man.

The natural man is not subject to the law of God and cannot be!

The natural man is a slave to sin.

If we in our unsaved state- How can we please God by receiving Jesus in our natural state, when the bible says we can'T?

 

[ChristisGod]

Well of course an armeniast will not disagree.

but the bible says that the natural man cannot please God.
The things of God are foolishness to the natural man.

The natural man is not subject to the law of God and cannot be!

The natural man is a slave to sin.

If we in our unsaved state- How can we please God by receiving Jesus in our natural state, when the bible says we can'T?

God via the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins , man responds in faith and repentance and then becomes regenerated having new life , the new birth . This always follows faith and it’s man’s responsibility to believe and repent . God does not do that for the sinner .

hope this helps !!!

 

[PinSeeker]

Hey, RonaldNolette, I generally agree with you on this, as I think you know, but the natural man ~ man in his natural state ~ is subject to the Law ~ the letter and not the law of Christ ~ and is without excuse, because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them... clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. For those in this natural state, although they know God, they do not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, and they have become futile in their thinking, their foolish hearts were darkened. This is because they have exchanged the truth about God for a lie (Romans 1). So, it's not woodenly that they can't please God in the sense that "they don't have the ability to do so," but in the sense that they will not, because they have chosen ~ of their own free will ~ not to and are fully and totally inclined against it. In this way, yes, the natural man is a slave to sin, and as you say, cannot please God. Again, as I said above, it is not a matter of whether man has free will or not (no one disputes that he does) or whether he is able to use it freely or not (no one disputes that he is). The crux of the matter is the condition of the heart ~ what it's natural condition is and whether or not it is changed from that natural condition. As Paul says, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

In order to save somebody- god has to violate what you call free will.

I'm at a loss to understand how you can say this. When someone begs "save me," it is not a violation of their will to save them. I don't know one Christian who feels violated by being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

God elects the saved. we do not choose God, but God first chose us!

True. Not all prayers are answered in the affirmative. Not all who call out "Lord, Lord" (save me) will be saved. The primary reason for this, I believe is lip service will not breach the gates of Heaven.

 

[PinSeeker]

God via the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins...

Yes, absolutely...

...man responds in faith...

Yes, but faith is not a work of man in himself, but a work of God, by the action of His Holy Spirit, as Paul clearly states:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
[Ephesians 2:8-10]​

As you know, I'm sure, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). This assurance is from God, and the conviction is from the Holy Spirit. Thus, faith is given and worked in the person by God.

...repentance and then becomes regenerated having new life, the new birth...

The repentance is freely done by man, who has this new spirit within him as a result of this new birth; this is the inevitable result of this work in the person by God by His Spirit. As Ezekiel says, relating God's own words:

"I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses..."
[Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:26-29]​

This always follows faith and it’s man’s responsibility to believe and repent. God does not do that for the sinner.

Agreed, but it's God's kindness ~ in granting us this new spirit in us, which is a result of the Holy Spirit's coming into us ~ that leads us to repentance, as Paul says in Romans 2.

Grace and peace to you, Christophany.

 

[Behold]

In order to save somebody- god has to violate what you call free will.

God does not violate free will to save anyone.
So, that hyper-calvinism doctrine needs to be removed from humanity.

What God does is Provide His LOVE for Humanity, proven by Dying on the Cross, and God says..>"will you come to me, will you take my Son by FAITH".
And that is not forcing anyone, and that is the Gospel.

 

[PinSeeker]

RonaldNolette: In order to save somebody- god has to violate what you call free will.

I'm at a loss to understand how you can say this.

Yes, what he said is not correct. Free will is not even part of the initial salvation equation; it has nothing to do with the will. Man of course has a will, and free it is, and certainly can make choices, which is never denied in Scripture. But, Paul does say, "It does not depend on man's willing or doing, but on God, Who has mercy (Romans 9:16). Paul is not saying man does not have choices to make or cannot make them, but that our being members of God's elect DEPENDS only on His mercy.

RonaldNolette:God elects the saved. we do not choose God, but God first chose us!

True.

Good. I would make a slight correction to what RonaldNolette said here, that God saves the elect... which may not seem like a correction on first blush, but is. The election is from before the foundation of the world, whereas the actual salvation is at the point the person's heart is changed ~ by God ~ from stone to flesh, which takes place only in God's elect and each at God's appointed time in the course of their lives.

Not all who call out "Lord, Lord" (save me) will be saved. The primary reason for this, I believe is lip service will not breach the gates of Heaven.

I agree with what you say here, Wrangler, but this is really a different thing altogether. Yes, as Jesus says there in Matthew 25, at the Judgment ~ when all are judged ~ some (those on His left) will think they believed and worked for Him but never really did ~ Jesus will have never known them, not in the sense that He didn't know who they are, but that He never loved them ~ chose them and gave mercy to them ~ in the same way as those on His right.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

God does not violate free will to save anyone. So, that hyper-calvinism doctrine needs to be removed from humanity.

Agreed! Hyper-Calvinism is not really Calvinism at all, but something quite different and wrong-headed. In RonaldNolette's defense, though, I'm not so sure he is a hyper-Calvinist, but only that maybe a thing or two he says he states in a hyper-Calvinistic way without realizing it.

What God does is Provide His LOVE for Humanity, proven by Dying on the Cross...

Well, right, but the love we're talking about is in the form of His mercy and compassion and is only given to those of His choosing. These are His elect. That's not to say, woodenly, that God "loves some but not others," but that He loves some in a sovereign, distinguishing way while others He does not ~ like a father his own children.

...God says... "will you come to me, will you take my Son by FAITH".

Faith ~ the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) ~ is granted to the person by the Father and worked in the person by the Holy Spirit. What you say here is the general call of the Gospel to all, but God issues His call inwardly by the Holy Spirit according to His purpose.

And that is not forcing anyone, and that is the Gospel.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you, Behold.

 

[Gregory]

Well of course an armeniast will not disagree.

but the bible says that the natural man cannot please God.
The things of God are foolishness to the natural man.

The natural man is not subject to the law of God and cannot be!

The natural man is a slave to sin.

If we in our unsaved state- How can we please God by receiving Jesus in our natural state, when the bible says we can'T?

I think this is a twisted view of mankind and his relationship with his Creator.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I believe when God is sovereign and predestined the world according to his planning, for his glory, that we are not actually able to execute our will to supercede his.

As he tells us.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe when God is sovereign and predestined the world according to his planning, for his glory, that we are not actually able to execute our will to supercede his.

As he tells us.

Thank you for sharing your belief, Bluedragon.